Article

2004-03-16 Europe

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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-03-16 1:29:09 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "The Spanish troops will come back," he added

Zapatero and the spanish voters have now actually aligned themselves and the spanish socialist party with Radical Islam by capitulating to AQ political terror. If I were GWB I would do my best to make Spain feel the consequences of joining the enemy (by failing to act on the atrocious perpetrated on their citizens). Economic steps are in order.
I have now added any Spanish wines or products to my black listed items (Damn, soon enough I will be limited to Californian and Israely wines !)
I expect any true Jacsonian (A La Steve Den Beste)and other similar freedom lovers to follow suit.
Lets hurt them through their pockets.

Posted by The Dodo 2004-3-16 4:01:39 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:01:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 no spanish tourism--its 20% of their gdp--avoid marbella--they'll soon be carpet humping on the beaches--anyone have a gps set to mecca--800 years of the reconquesta down the tubes/tracks--what a pity--actions have consequences--italy's avery nicea thisa timea year

Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2004-3-16 4:08:05 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:08:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The Dodo - haven't you discovered Australian wines yet?!

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-16 4:22:06 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:22:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Bulldog,
I am truely ashamed of my forgetting Australian wines.
As a matter of fact, I am presently hoarding a couple of bottles of excellent Australian Shiraz bottles to be opened on special occations (i.e. the catching day of OBL, the indictment of the Paki rape gang in australia, and the like).

All Aussies, please accept my true apologies for the criminally negligent ommission. :)

BTW , Bulldog are you an Aussie ??? do you have any particular recommendations for Australian wines ??

Posted by The Dodo 2004-3-16 4:36:39 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:36:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The Dodo, No I'm not an Aussie, and although I like the Australian product I won't claim to be a wine expert. There are others around here who know their stuff, though. Maybe Anon1 has some suggestions...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-16 4:55:29 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:55:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 agreed we should hit them with economic sanctions, but i was thinking more of bigger scale fuck offs for them,how about Britain pulls out tottally of the Eurofighter program thus killing the project for spain,germany and unfortuanatly in this case Italy,In the meantime we by JSF from the USA, a win win situation for BAE here,an a huge kick in the teeth for the spaniards.Next we withdraw all sources of spare parts for any american or british equipment in thier armed forces and prohibit them buying any fresh eqiupment. Also cut off any potentially good sources of commercial revenue the spanish may have from sellling thier greasy goods over here.Basically isolate them economically and militarally Spaniard are now only fit to be allys with the French

Posted by Jon Shep U.K 2004-3-16 4:57:53 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:57:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Forget the European Union - how about an Atlantic Union?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-3-16 5:13:38 AM|| 2004-3-16 5:13:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 America and Briton should also withdraw from NATO and the UK should pull out of this EU army bullshit too. USA,UK,Australia,Poland,Israel,Canada should form thier own Defense/offense Pact, if one gets started on the others all help and if one starts on another country we all help. What with the French siding up to the Chinese recently and the Ruskies selling so much shit to China we need a strong allience. The likes of Zapetaro need to be ignored and his opinions not listened too. Let him ally up with the Slimey French.

Posted by Jon Shep U.K 2004-3-16 6:07:28 AM|| 2004-3-16 6:07:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 And the plot thickens: the leader of the dutch version of the labour party, has just called for the withdrawal of our forces from Iraq.

I feel ashamed to be a European right now.

Posted by Evert Visser 2004-3-16 6:53:41 AM|| [http://chinditz.blog-city.com/] 2004-3-16 6:53:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#10
the spanish voters have now actually aligned themselves and the spanish socialist party with Radical Islam

The Spanish voters have voted to withdraw Spanish soldiers from Iraq. Get a grip. Right now Spain is still one of our main military allies in Spain.

Now, all of a sudden, the Spaniards "have actually aligned themselves with radical Islam," which murdered 200 people in Madrid a few days ago? I don't think so.

When President Reagan pulled US troops out of Lebanon, did he "actually align himself" with Hammas? When President Nixon pulled US troops out of Vietnam, did "he actually align himself" with the Vietcong?
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-16 6:54:35 AM|| 2004-3-16 6:54:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 When President Nixon pulled US troops out of Vietnam, did "he actually align himself" with the Vietcong?

Mike, you do know what happened when we pulled our troops out of Vietnam, don't you? Soooo...what's your point?? Are you saying that pulling troops out leads to PEACE?? Your examples don't support it. AQ brought the front of the WOT to Spain. I guess in your book, you'd rather have the war going on outside your door, than to stop it before it gets there. Well, that's your opinion.

I'd say if we took a poll, most of us would prefer to fight it in Iraq, where we disposed a bloody dictator, gave a country a chance at democracy, and didn't have to worry as much about our own busses and trains blowing up.

You need to get a grip. Spain just suffered a terrible set back in its slide toward radical Islam. Deal with it.

Posted by B 2004-3-16 7:13:27 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:13:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 The Spanish voters allowed al Qaeda to decide their government for the next four years. Desperately sad, but essentially true. Doesn't get much more aligned than that.

A handful of Islamist psychopaths with explosives determine the outcome of an election in a Western liberal democracy of some 40 000 000 people. The gutless voters who turned out only to 'punish Aznar and the PP' were doing the express bidding of al Qaeda masterminds. They voted in a government which does not understand the threat facing its country, and which has pledged to abandon Iraq in its greatest hour of need, all in order to appease a gang of murderous criminals. I can honestly say that this event is the most horrifying thing that I have ever lived to see happen.

My sympathathies, for what they're worth, are with outvoted minority.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-16 7:22:57 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:22:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 When President Reagan pulled US troops out of Lebanon, did he "actually align himself" with Hammas? When President Nixon pulled US troops out of Vietnam, did "he actually align himself" with the Vietcong?
No but they enabled the victories of both those groups. The result of those actions was the same as if they did actually align themselves with our enemies. That is the significance here. The Spanish voters may just as well be holding up signs that say Yo Quero Dhimmitude. The fecklessness of zapato will enbolden radical Islam to greater acts of terror.

Posted by Scott 2004-3-16 7:30:38 AM|| [http://tacoflavoredkisses.com/tfkblog/] 2004-3-16 7:30:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#14
Re: #11

what's your point??
The Spanish voters have not aligned themselves with radical Islam.

Are you saying that pulling troops out leads to PEACE??
No.

I guess in your book, you'd rather have the war going on outside your door, than to stop it before it gets there. Well, that's your opinion.
No it isn't.

I'd say if we took a poll, most of us would prefer to fight it in Iraq,
I support our war in Iraq. I appreciate Spain's active participation, which still continues now.

Spain just suffered a terrible set back in its slide toward radical Islam.
The Spanish voters and the new government clearly recognize the threat from radical Islam. I predict that Spain will soon take strong new measures to attack that threat in Spain.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-16 7:36:21 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:36:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 The US and western civilization owes Spain gratitude for their several months of help in Iraq. The next time Spain would would like help to preserve western civilization, the US will be there with 1300 peacekeepers for 6-9 months, but only as part of a coalition whose lead partner will have provided 250,000 troops and already won the battles. Don't ever say the US doesn't pay its debts of gratitude.

Posted by ed 2004-3-16 7:41:51 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:41:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#16
Re #14:
They [Nixon and Reagan] enabled the victories of both those groups. The result of those actions was the same as if they did actually align themselves with our enemies.
Instead of going outside right now to fight criminals, you are sitting and reading Rantburg.
You therefore enable criminals to commit crimes.
The result of your reading Rantburg is the same as if you had actually aligned yourselves with criminals.
Therefore, you have actually aligned yourself with criminals.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-16 7:42:48 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:42:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#17
#16 is re: #13

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-16 7:45:36 AM|| 2004-3-16 7:45:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 the best wines in the world are Australian, and cheap at half the price.

Posted by tipper 2004-3-16 8:30:24 AM|| 2004-3-16 8:30:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 I predict that Spain will soon take strong new measures to attack that threat in Spain.
And I predict that you are wrong.

Whatever, Mike. It's pretty clear that all he is going to do is give a bunch of meaningless blame-America-first lip service to the cause. You let me know if he actually DOES something to prevent terrorism, ok. You seem to think he's going to magically stop the flood of immigrants into the country. Yeah, that'll happen. All he needs to do is to say it, and it will happen tomorrow.

Re: 16 - that's just plain stupid. I'd expect better from you.

Posted by B 2004-3-16 8:46:34 AM|| 2004-3-16 8:46:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 ZF My dark scenario is a retreat to countries that can secure their borders and gaurantee their citizens are not terrorists. The alliance will be centred on America and span the Atlantic and the Pacific. The EU will fragment and if there are resources that the alliance doesn't have then it will just militarily take and secure an area that has them. The rest of the world can go to hell in a hand basket.

A black prospect but then I am in black frame of mind. We will have to live with consequences of the Spanish election for many years to come and it will not be nice for us but will be truly awful for those we exclude.

Posted by phil_b 2004-3-16 8:58:59 AM|| 2004-3-16 8:58:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 To the Dodo and anyone else looking for EXCEPTIONAL AUSSIE WINES:

We now drink Aussie wine exclusively, and can't imagine doing otherwise. After sampling many Aussie red wines over the last four years, we've landed on these three as the most excellent of them:

d'Arenberg's McLaren Vale d"arry's Original--Shiraz/ Grenache ( 2001 was a very good year) about $20 and well worth it.

d'Arenberg's Stump Jump--Grenache/Shiraz/Mourvedre (any year) about $12.

Thorbreck (any year). Absolutely superb. Also about $20.

All of these wines are from family wineries in South Australia, and are from vineyards established about 100 or more years ago. They are made as wine was meant to be made: small-yielding vineyards, hand harvested, gently crushed (traditional foot treading), basket pressed, and fermented in open-tanks, then matured in oak barrels. This old-fashioned process yields an undeniably superior product. Of course, they have won awards and are rated highly.

Black Opal Merlot and Jacob's Creek can also have some nice qualities at times, but are not nearly as good. Even though they're cheaper, I still recommend you hold out for the ones I listed above. You won't be sorry.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-16 9:27:49 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:27:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 mike sylvester makes some good points.

This is a setback, not the "cataract of disaster" All indications are that other Coalition of the willing allies will stay the course - note the BBC poll, for example. Note the Iraq poll, showing steady political evolution there.

Theres alot more going on wrt to Iraq than Spain. Sure theres lots of unpleasant WORDS coming out of Spain, and out of gloating pundits. But as some said above, words arent actions. Only actions out of this are the withdrawl of 2,000 troops. And not till June 30. If then.

And while Iraq is a key part of the WOT, it is not the only part. What is Spain doing - well in the last couple of days theyve arrested 5 jihadis, and now just arrested one more, i think, an algerian, and are pursuing another half dozen or so Moroccans. And they are putting together the links that tie the train bombers to the attacks in Casablanca, and to Al Qaeeda generally.

Is police action at home less effective than going out and draining the swamp - I THINK SO!!!! But its a tad over the top to say that because Spain isnt doing the smart thing to fight terror, ergo they have changed sides, or surrendered.

But then we live in an age of inflated rhetoric. People who dont like Bush idiotically compare him to Hitler. So i guess i cant blame the inflated rhetoric here.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-16 9:52:30 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:52:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 LH, The jihadis have just discovered that through violence and intimidation they can bring down the government of a large West European democracy, and you're complaining about "inflated rhetoric"?!

The fact that the Spanish seem to be chasing up the perps quite effectively is virtually meaningless. They have done their job, and achieved monumental results. Results which are bound to be strived for by other cells in other countries. We'll see further "inflated rhetoric" when al Qaeda try the same thing in America, Britain and/or Australia.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-3-16 10:23:00 AM|| 2004-3-16 10:23:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 LH - read bulldog's post and then reread it again. I hope you aren't one of the people on the train before the next election they hope to influence.

You may be right that Spain hasn't "switched sides", afterall, 1/2 of the people voted the other way. But I think it's pretty safe to say that this was a major battle lost in the WOT.

Posted by B 2004-3-16 10:31:18 AM|| 2004-3-16 10:31:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#25
They have done their job, and achieved monumental results. Results which are bound to be strived for by other cells in other countries.
Bulldog, I agree with your statement here. Keep in mind, though, that the democratic countries, including Spain, will resist -- they won't surrender.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-3-16 10:45:15 AM|| 2004-3-16 10:45:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 [$0.02 observation]
From the posts since the Madrid attack, I've concluded that Mike Sylwester, otherwise both lucid and articulate, has a problem differentiating between what is so and what he wishes to be so. I empathize for it is the bitch of life. But reality just IS. Accept it or not, like it or not, want it or not - nothing changes the facts. I see nothing in this thread to change the observation - just the opposite, in fact. Mike is adamntly looking for a positive result - but has failed to convince me there is one to be found. I would like for him to be right. But reality doesn't respond to our likes / dislikes.

LH, as resident nice guy, dreamer, and optimist, has jumped in to defend a fellow optimist. Okay, that's nice - but even if everyone here agreed, it would have zero effect on reality.

We shall see what Spain does under the control of the Socialists. Everything else is twaddle. BUT, and it's truly stupid to argue against it, the evidence in hand does not favor the optimists regards Spain. If that's not obvious, then your rose-colored glasses have morphed into Zaphod Beeblebrok's "Don't Panic" glasses.

Additionally, this attack has to be seen as an effective terror technique - it resulted in regime change Izzoid-style - thus who would be so silly as to think they won't try mightily to reapply it elsewhere?

Madrid was tragic. The election of the Socialists was Izzoid magic. Spain will regret it, just as will every other democracy which entertains significant appeasement elements and hasn't openly addressed the problem sufficiently to have developed a core of the electorate which will recover from the shock with its survival instincts in control. Spain was the European mine canary. It died. We ALL will have to deal with it.
[/observation]

Need change?

Posted by .com 2004-3-16 10:51:16 AM|| 2004-3-16 10:51:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Nice thread folks. Spain panicked, made a poor decision imo but there's no sense crying over spilled milk. We now need to adapt and overcome (as we always do so effectively) to their decision (as distasteful as it is) and find other advantageous courses of action. In every fray there is opportunity for the country willing to exploit it. Maybe we discuss pulling out of Rota - see how that grabs them. Shep had interesting points on JSF and other euro contracts I am not familiar with. I think Spain made a critical mistake but let's remember that almost half of them did vote to keep Aznar's party - this is a setback they will prolly pay for but no checkmate, I have hope for those over there that still feel as we do. Let's also remember their brave troops who have spilled their blood w/American lads. As for Zapatero - fuck that pandering bitch.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-3-16 11:11:42 AM|| 2004-3-16 11:11:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Speaking of wishes vs. horses, this sure would be a good time for Kerry and Bush to appear jointly on national television to make it unmistakably clear that no matter what the outcome of the November election, Al Qaeda and its crosseyed kinfolk are dead meat. Any burden, any price: you're dead.

Chances of that happening? A decimal point followed by a virtually infinite number of zeroes with a 1 at the end.

Posted by Matt 2004-3-16 11:29:51 AM|| 2004-3-16 11:29:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Maybe because I've got some "liberal" in my handle, I don't think the situation is as bleak as most of you folks seem to.

I read Kagan's "Power and Weakness" essay last night. It gave me a fair amount of comfort over the Spanish vote. (Hat tip Den Beste.) A majority of the Spanish electorate acted to form as predicted by Kagan. It's disturbing, it's unfortunate and we are going to see a lot more like it in the coming years. But it is in no way decisive in the WOT. The die has been cast on that one. We are in this one for the long haul.

Posted by Classic_Liberal 2004-3-16 11:47:40 AM|| 2004-3-16 11:47:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Folks, this has been a good thread. It is evident to see that the events in Spain have serious implications in the WoT, and that the horrific terrorist bombings and the appeasement beginning to take place have affected us all.

My take on it is that this is a setback on the war. It is one battlefield that turned to s--t on us. We will suffer more setbacks and we will achieve victories. I am not willing to put my hands up in despair yet. I do not plan to anytime. We must realize that everyone in the world is looking at the events in Spain and thinking about it. Really thinking about it. And I do not believe that everyone is going to roll over and kowtow to the terrorists. This is the opening salvo in the WoT in Europe. The time for scouts and skirmishes is past. I hope that the disaster in Spain serves as a wake-up call for the rest of us. It bloody well better be.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-3-16 11:54:33 AM|| 2004-3-16 11:54:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 To put perspective on the Spanish results, I remember how close a chance the 2000 presidential vote really was. Somebody leaked GW's DWI the weekend before. That revelation that I think almost tipped the scales.

Giving Zappy the same treatment that Chetian, Schroeder, and Chirac received is certainly acceptable, but I think the People of Spain need our help. One man called our President and Britainâs Prime Minister liars, but the election itself was still very close. Economically, they will be in deep trouble just from the after-effects of the bombing. It took quite a bit of time and effort to get our consumer confidence back in line after our tragedy; I donât think we will do ourselves any good by boycotting countries whose leaders are numbskulls â most countries were still nice to us during the Carter years.

Like everyone else, I am astounded by the utter stupidity of a politician that will purposefully alienate a friendly economic giant that would be single-handedly capable of rebuilding Spainâs entire economy from scratch. It would be as intelligent for a passenger evacuating the Titanic to set fire to his own life vest because the color orange clashed with his dinner dress.

Letâs do the irrational â wipe the loogie out of our eyes and help the guys who potooied us. Itâs irrational but itâs the American way.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-3-16 12:13:36 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:13:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I too see the Spain election results as a setback, perhaps AlQ's biggest win yet, but switching over to "adapt and overcome" mode (thanks, Jarhead) -- one possible positive outcome is that the battle lines are now more clearly drawn than ever, and that there is less room on our side for false or halfhearted allies.

Posted by docob 2004-3-16 12:14:23 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:14:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 "A majority of the Spanish electorate acted to form as predicted by Kagan."

Funny, AlQ / ETA operative must've read Kagan, too.

The one thing that really worries me is that we few in RB are the exception, not the rule. We have internet access and, on average, we read several blogs daily, we exchange ideas with others on (approximately, we do have some fun exceptions!) the same plane. We probably get a minimum of input from the ABCNBCCBSBBCetc confabulation of spin doctors - and entertain them primarily as sources of entertainment, not hardcore source information. We are able to read excellent fiskings of the asshats who would otherwise persuade us that Emperor-in-Waiting Skeery's New Clothes are, indeed, very spiffy. Given the resources available to us, we have moved well beyond the point of being force-fed by editorially-driven demogogues. We are able to decide for ourselves with a cornucopia of both raw and predigested intel.

I feel very privileged to be here, but that litanty identfies our advantages - not the norm.

How will the normal US voter think and act come November? Beats me. From what I see, hear, and read it can certainly end up going either way. I will do everything in my meager power to give Dubya another 4 years, but... I'm also looking into various places around [on second thought - deleted - it's in another country]. If the US goes insane, temporarily or not, and elects Skeery, I'm gone. I already know what I will miss.

"We are in this one for the long haul."
Only if informed, intelligent, rational, and resolved Americans prevail over the loonies, dhimmis, and George Soros / Ketchup Grrl. I most sincerely hope your are right - and they do.

Posted by .com 2004-3-16 12:15:08 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:15:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 I like what Jarhead has to say. Europe is divided and the ABBA crowed has been energised. But I'm bummed by Spains Socialist takeover and it hurts to hear Zap whip up his base with obvious lies. It's what his folk want to hear. I'll tell you what, ETA has learned a BIG lesson. The Vuelta may be funky.

Spain is a western democracy with a quality opposition party, they hold a strong position in Spanish politics. The light there flickers but it burns.

Shep, I love ya bro, I love your passion. But as TGA argued in the past regarding dumping on weak knee allies with pathetic anti-American populations, they still are our neighbors and actually our freinds(?) OUCH! Stop that.

My point is that this is a new mid game. I've won a lot of chess games buy extending the problem. Being patient by supporting the pawn, not pushing it. I've been in groups that I wanted to lead but found not enough willing to follow. I stayed in the group to help steer it, learn more about it.

See ya all latter.

Posted by Lucky 2004-3-16 12:59:43 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:59:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 From the reportage on the Spanish elections in the local fishwrap (OK, I get it for the funnies, OK?) and on Morning Edition--- as well as on Iberian Notes, I pick up the feeling that a lot of Spaniards are having an "Oh-oh" moment, as the potential outcomes and implications are explored and begin to sink in. They were immediatly unhappy with the PP, and voted accordingly, and now with Sr. Zapatero's seemingly off-the-cuff remarks all the chickens are coming home to roost. Anyone else picking up on the "Oh-oh? feeling?

Posted by Sgt. Mom 2004-3-16 1:01:35 PM|| [www.sgtstryker.com] 2004-3-16 1:01:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Remember folks, the pattern of success is to 'underpromise' and then 'overdeliver".

I think the Shelf life for the new PM and his Anti-American bile is somthing that will be measured in months.

Posted by Frank Martin 2004-3-16 1:09:58 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:09:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 "Results which are bound to be strived for by other cells in other countries. We'll see further "inflated rhetoric" when al Qaeda try the same thing in America, Britain and/or Australia."

Are you implying that had the Spanish voted for the PP, the US would NOT be targeted by Al Qaedda?? What are you smoking??? Al Qaeeda will strike whereever it can, whenever it can. and the US is the number one target without regard to Iraq. We were the number one target when Bill Clinton was president, and we will be the number one target whatever happens in Iraq. Next train indeed!

At most this MAY - I repeat MAY - cause AQ to reprioritize attacks, and focus on countries with troops in Iraq. Likely to be an unsuccessful strategy, since Britain, Aussie and Poland are very different politically (Italy im not so sure about) In fact Australia was already hit, indirectly in Bali, and some said it was cause of Iraq, and Aussie stood firm. I have no doubt that Britain would too, and i have good vibes about Poland. So if AQ tries that they simply use up a cell, or even a network, to kill a couple of hundred people. No different from what they have done in Morocco, Saudi, Indon, etc. No different from what i completely expect them to do in the US again. No different from what Israel goes through all the time. If we can take it, if everyone expect the Spanish to take it, then UK, Aussie and Poland can take it too.

Im not the resident optimist, YOU ARE, if you think that absent Iraq there would be no AQ bombings in the West.

I AM optimistic that this wont break up the coalition against terror. Look, we spent 45 years fighting communism, and nations drifted in and out of alliance. France was with us, than France was gone, then they drifted back. China was an ally of the USSR, than they were WORSE than the USSR, than they were a valued partner against the USSR. Britain went from firm ally to flirting with neutrality and back again.

This is a long war we're in for. Iraq is one phase. Spain will help us before it ends, one way or another.

I continue to await that I was correct about the responsibility for the bombing in Madrid, while many others here were wrong.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-16 1:12:43 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:12:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 As odious as I think the Spanish result is, there is the possibility, however slight, that the EU leaders will now do something serious. I know, I know...I'm probably dreaming given their past predilection for blather rather than action. But this was the first real AQ strike on the Continent. It MAY (much ass covering here) get them to understand that they now have to take action.

Sgt. Stryker may be on to something as well. The more Zipodildo spouts off, the faster he is going to fall from grace with the Spaniards.

Posted by remote man 2004-3-16 1:20:50 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:20:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 "24 LH - read bulldog's post and then reread it again. I hope you aren't one of the people on the train before the next election they hope to influence. "

I am an American. I am a Jew. I live in the DC area. I consider myself constantly targeted by the Jihadis. On the train, at work, at Synagogue, at the mall, at home. Far from being a dreamer, i am to some degree numbed to the ongoing deaths and murders. I mourned terrorist murders in the middle east before Id ever heard of Al qaeeda.

So Im not inclined to go bonkers over a setback, even a significant one. You can either panic, or you can steel yourself. If anyone thought this was going to be a war without setbacks, they should have gone off and ignored it. Cause it was never gonna be such.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-16 1:23:10 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:23:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 well if alqueda takes the que from the spanish cowardly voters and tries the same in the US - Bush will be re-elected. Americans rally around the flag and want vengence while eurotrash, when confronted , scamper like ants for hiding places. what the spanish elecorate has done is put the whole of europe in danger.

Posted by Dan 2004-3-16 1:25:38 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:25:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 It is a set back and it is not the end of the war, but we did just witness another inflection point in the calculus of death. Yeah, I know, historicity is false and historical analogies limp, but since the Creator made it so we can never really know what's going to happen after t-sub-zero, we normally turn to the past and draw analogies. If Europe had reacted to Hitler's re-occupation of the Rhineland, 10K die. If they wait until the Sudetenland, 100K die. If they attack in Sep 1939, 1M die. They wait until May, 1940 and 50M die. That is the calculus of death. It's a gamble, a crap shoot with very high stakes. Most human societies wait until it's too late. Some through luck and superior organization manage to recover and win.

So maybe the best strategy is containment. Maybe we wait it out and the whole Islamic thing collapses from its internal contradictions like the USSR did. I don't know. But what I do know is that we just saw another step function in the calculus of death. Go read this week's Friday sermons. Much bloodier and more confident than usual. More kids are approaching ol' Mahmoud al Afgani after prayers and asking him about how he got his moniker. There will be more bombers. There will be more dead than if the Spanish had voted for the PP. What happens between now and the next bombing isn't as important as what happens after the next bombing.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-16 1:29:08 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:29:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 11A5S - Spot-on kick-ass analogy - that rings true from every angle... Painful and chillingly accurate, IMO. Thanx! Great post!

Posted by .com 2004-3-16 1:41:06 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:41:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 "For myself I am an optimist - it does not seem to be much use being anything else"

Winston Churchill

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-3-16 1:57:46 PM|| 2004-3-16 1:57:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 I too am an optimist. But I am also a realist. If this were football, I'd say we just had a bad inning.

Saying things like, "the fact that the opposition scored so many points means that they are overconfident now and we will beat them" only goes so far.

Bottom line, we lost an inning and we are going to have to change a few strategies plus work harder if we want to win the game.

Posted by B 2004-3-16 4:50:36 PM|| 2004-3-16 4:50:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 heh, heh...I started with football and felt that this didn't represent a full quarter of the game...forgot to change the rest...oh well...you get my point.

Posted by B 2004-3-16 4:54:56 PM|| 2004-3-16 4:54:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 #44 - lets clear this up - The europeans lost bigtime. They will have to work much harder not to lose the game, they are now wide open. The US strategy will stay the same. We will act unilaterly regardless of what the euro's think or want. The actual impact of no spanish troops in iraq is very small. In the overall WOT they are still engaged as part of nato, especially at sea.
In the long run this could be good for the US. The euros will feel the sting of having thier democracies dictacted to by terrorists countries and may just get some balls. It could also energize alqueda to try the same with the nov elections in the US. Which will gurantee Bush's relection. The real part of WOT will start after nov. when we go after the main countries that support these terrorists. Iran and Syria.

Posted by Dan 2004-3-16 5:26:10 PM|| 2004-3-16 5:26:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 and we must remember that the war in iraq was to set the stage for the next part of the WOT. it wasn't an end to a means but a means to an end.

Posted by Dan 2004-3-16 5:28:38 PM|| 2004-3-16 5:28:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 I've gone through all of this, plus several dozen other pages on several different blogs. I've come to a few conclusions, not all of which are easy to contemplate.

1. Spain blew it, big-time, and another thousand, five thousand, maybe even 25,000, will be killed or injured because of it. They reacted emotionally to an emotional tragedy, and made a huge mistake. IT IS a HUGE mistake, because it will encourage more such tragedies in the future. The rest of us will have to be ten times as vigilant, and we will probably still miss the attackers until it's all over.

2. Spain needs to understand that there are consequences to behavior. Perhaps it's not a good idea to punish Spain, but it's not a good idea to let this pass unchallenged, either. All countries, both those with us and those against us, need to know there are consequences for behavior (that old cause and effect thing) - both positive and negative. Spain's new prime minister says the only way Spanish troops will be allowed to remain is if the United Nations takes over in Iraq. That cannot be allowed to happen. The United Nations' track record is so dismal it's unthinkable to give them any real authority over anything. It's also stupid. On the other hand, an increased NATO interest in Iraq may be feasible. This may give the Spaniards, finding themselves out on a limb politically, a chance to back down without losing too much face. Zapadopio can find himself NOT invited to the United States - not just excluded from Crawford, but from any face-to-face meeting with Bush. In the meantime, curtailing the number of US/Spanish joint exercises, reducing the number of Port Calls by US warships, reducing the number of Spanish-granted contracts in Iraq, and similar measures can reinforce the message that we think Spain screwed the pooch bigtime, and there WILL be repercussions. Transfer those Port Calls to nations that still support us in Iraq, encourage Iraq to award more contracts to such nations, and let "Old Europe" see how we reward our friends, and turn our backs on those that spit on us.

3. Keep hammering on the theme that this war will continue as long as the enemy has the means to pursue it, and the only way to be "safe" is to destroy the enemy. Keep repeating the keys to victory: vigilence, border control, intelligence, sharing information, and destroying the enemy wherever and whenever he's found, regardless of who or where he is.

Spain is a setback. It isn't yet a defeat. It can become one, if the free people of the world don't understand exactly what happened and why, or if they turn their back on the realities of war. There are those in the United States, including the Democratic candidate for President, who is not fully committed to waging a victorious war against our common enemy. We must all fight harder to ensure such people don't get their way, and surrender for all of us.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-3-16 6:04:28 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2004-3-16 6:04:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 OP, IMO Spain needs to be liberated not punished.

I've won a lot of chess games buy extending the problem.

Remind me never to play any game with you Lucky.

Posted by Shipman 2004-3-16 6:18:52 PM|| 2004-3-16 6:18:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 LH you seem to operate on the premise that AQ has fixed resources. This is not the case. Like all terrorist organizations it is critically dependant on a constant in flow of money and people. They can now point to their biggest sucess to date in Spain and I have little doubt they will see a big increase in money and people coming in, which means sharply increased levels of terrorism.

Posted by phil_b 2004-3-16 7:38:47 PM|| 2004-3-16 7:38:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 The way to defeat the terrorists is to dry up their money, and that ultimately leads back to
1. Saudi Arabia
2. Iran

The world does not yet have the Collective will to clean out these ratholes. The US AND the coalition of the Willing started the process in Afghanistan and Iraq. Spain may cease their contribution, but the job WILL be done with or without them. Zap is riding the wave right now, but it will hit the shore and he will be high and dry.

If Zap wants to run with the big dogs, he better quit pissing like a puppy.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-3-16 9:44:37 PM|| 2004-3-16 9:44:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 I'm with you AP. The brains of a many headed snake. We can and should kill the beasts. So simple really. And to think Aris would have me labled a bloodthirsty cowboy. I love cowboys.

Posted by Lucky 2004-3-16 11:05:32 PM|| 2004-3-16 11:05:32 PM|| Front Page Top

08:27 sakattack
08:07 Anonymous
07:30 B
07:19 B
07:06 B
07:03 Shipman
05:37 Howard UK
04:42 sakattack
04:11 ed
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04:05 ed
01:52 Atomic Conspiracy
00:19 Brewer
00:17 Brewer
00:03 Les Nessman
23:27 CrazyFool
23:21 Tibor
23:14 tu3031
23:10 Alaska Paul
23:08 Mike Sylwester
23:06 Alaska Paul
23:05 Lucky
22:58 Mike Sylwester
22:51 GK