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2004-01-05 Caribbean
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Posted by Steve 2004-01-05 9:24:55 AM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Yes, look what happened to the Philippines after they kicked out the American from Clark and Subic, they said the airport in Clark will become high-tech industrial park, it did not happen. The Philippines never recovered from the lose of the bases

Without the $$$ from the US Puerto Rico will become a large South Bronx
Posted by Lizzel 2004-1-5 9:53:09 AM||   2004-1-5 9:53:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 This is all well and good. If them Porta Reekins can't take the bad with the good, then they get nothing at all. Take it one step further and dismantle ALL facilities and remove ALL personnel from the island and let them carve out an existence for themselves.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-1-5 9:56:10 AM||   2004-1-5 9:56:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Payback sucks, doesn't it?
Posted by Ptah  2004-1-5 9:57:06 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]  2004-1-5 9:57:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I'm not sure you can call it payback. We paid for a service they provided. Now they dont want to provide the service, so we leave and stop paying them.

It wouldnt be fair to us to have to keep paying right?
Posted by flash91 2004-1-5 10:07:06 AM||   2004-1-5 10:07:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The perception that Puerto Ricans were happily taking tax payer dollars while spitting on the military and the rest of the U.S. at the same time are completely wrong from my experience.

I have been to PR (including Vieques) on a couple of occasions and still remain in contact with a few friends there. I met several people from at least two dozen towns. My impression was that they did indeed have a very strong sense of being “Puerto Rican” with pride in their distinct culture and language, but no more so than my same feelings about being a Southerner. In fact, the majority I met also had a strong pride in being Americans and some related to me their frustration and even anger when someone visiting from the continental U.S. didn’t realize Puerto Ricans were Americans. The friends I made there and remain in contact with all proudly served in the U.S. Army and note their service as having a positive impact on their life.

Before I put you all to sleep, I’ll get to my point. Looking at a map of Vieques and having been on the island, you realize that it is a beautiful and very tiny strip of land. Being a resident and having 16-inch guns lobbing high explosives in your backyard cannot be fun. However comma from talking with my friends, the majority of the protest and, more importantly, unwillingness to find a compromise solution was coming from outside PR. The Left grabbed what was a legitimate concern for the residents of Vieques and turned it into a public relations war with the Navy. The Left was not concerned with a solution for Vieqeus. They wanted a political victory over the military. The citizens of PR were left holding the bag for the Left.
Posted by Kentar 2004-1-5 10:31:29 AM||   2004-1-5 10:31:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 12% unemployment and they couldn't find enough people to work????? Even 7-8% before base closings and they still couldn't find people to work.

And exactly how did we "seize" PR from Spain????

Hmmm, maybe we could offer it back.

And flash, we're paying $14 bill a year, we're still going to be paying.

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-1-5 10:31:56 AM||   2004-1-5 10:31:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 And exactly how did we "seize" PR from Spain????

It was called the Spanish-American War. Remember the Maine, Admiral Dewey, San Juan Hill, that one. Spain gave us the Phillipines and Puerto Rico when they sued for peace.
Posted by VAMark 2004-1-5 11:28:06 AM||   2004-1-5 11:28:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Well, the pyroclastic flows that pretty well buried Clark might have had something to do with it.
Posted by mojo  2004-1-5 12:12:21 PM||   2004-1-5 12:12:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 The citizens of PR were left holding the bag for the Left.

Sleep with the dogs, wake up with fleas.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-1-5 12:24:02 PM||   2004-1-5 12:24:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 It wasn't pyroclastic flows that buried Clark, it was ashfall. The looting afterwards didn't help either.
Posted by buwaya  2004-1-5 12:27:53 PM||   2004-1-5 12:27:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Actually, the US invaded Puerto Rico as well in 1898, defeated what Spanish forces there were, and siezed the island.
Posted by buwaya  2004-1-5 12:29:59 PM||   2004-1-5 12:29:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Being an ignorant American, I took offense at "seized." Spoils of war, wasn't there a ship "The Maine" involved which brought the entire thing to a head?
Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-1-5 12:36:34 PM||   2004-1-5 12:36:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 President Bush recently named a 16-member panel to re-evaluate Puerto Rico’s status... I did not expect this extra step by Bush. I wonder whether the result will be kicking the little bird out of the nest altogether.
Posted by Super Hose  2004-1-5 12:46:46 PM||   2004-1-5 12:46:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 From what I have heard, results of the most recent investigations of the Maine incident attribute the explosion to a magazine mishap. Things like that still can happen. I had a friend that went aboard the USS Saribachi in 1993 or so. He was planning work for our repair department on one of their ammunition storage rooms. He said that he was disconcerted when while he scoping out the work that needed to be done, he noticed that he could look through a large rust hole in the bulkhead of the storage room directly into a boiler room.
Posted by Super Hose  2004-1-5 12:54:56 PM||   2004-1-5 12:54:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Anonymous

The explosion of the Maine was NOT a sabotage from the Spanish, but the yellow press (read Hearst) and imperialistic politicians pretended it was.
Posted by JFM  2004-1-5 12:55:47 PM||   2004-1-5 12:55:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Re: the Spanish-American War:

There was no significant land combat in the Puerto Rico campaign because the inhabitants of Puerto Rico were falling all over themselves to welcome the American expedition.

As for the loss of the Maine, the cause is still an open question (see this excellent book by a descendant of a Maine sailor). It's true that the press and some imperialistic-minded politicians sensationalized the incident to serve their own ends, but Spanish sabotage was not an unreasonable explanation for what happened.
Posted by Mike  2004-1-5 1:30:31 PM||   2004-1-5 1:30:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 The majority of Puerto Ricans I've spoken to indicate a desire to retain their status as a Commonwealth of the United States. They don't want independence, which will make them foot all the bill for their existence, and they don't want statehood, where they'd have to pay a larger percentage of the bill. They're aided by a number of large corporations who use Puerto Rico as a tax shelter. It's a complicated situation that has no easy answers. The island itself is beautiful, and there are a couple of unique features (Arecibo, for one) that make it worthwhile to keep it in the family, so to speak.

On the same note, about half the Philippinos I've spoken to over the last 40 years think the Philippines made a bad mistake opting for independence. About a third wish the US would take over again, and a major percentage of those would like to become the 51st state. Most of the people I've spoken to either were in the US military at one time, or worked for the military at some point in their lives. It's not a scientific study, but indicative that some people see being a part of the United States as a positive thing.
Posted by Old Patriot  2004-1-5 1:31:13 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm]  2004-1-5 1:31:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Being a resident and having 16-inch guns lobbing high explosives in your backyard cannot be fun. However comma from talking with my friends, the majority of the protest and, more importantly, unwillingness to find a compromise solution was coming from outside PR.

Kentar, I have to disagree somewhat. I lived on - not near, ON - Fort Carson, Colorado. Tanks regularly rumbled by my home, I could hear tank and artillery fire regularly, and if I went one night without hearing someone firing blanks in a field exercize, I couldn't sleep well. (Heh!)

Of COURSE it's difficult having 16 inch guns firing in your back yard, just like it's difficult living in the take-off & landing shadows of a major international airport. That's why you _move_. Ideally, in this case, you petition the courts in a hope to squeeze some funds from the Navy, then you find a nice home somewhere quiet. Either you have an emotional attachment to your land or you do not. If you don't, you move. Case closed. If you do have a deep and abiding attachment, then a little thing like naval gunfire won't bother you. The tanks didn't bother me, Carson was _home_.

That's about the way I see things. But like that Dennis whathisname on HBO, "..I could be wrong."

Ed Becerra
Posted by Ed Becerra 2004-1-5 2:15:28 PM||   2004-1-5 2:15:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Btw, what happened to the "Remember the Maine!" title?
Posted by Anonymous 2004-1-5 2:19:42 PM||   2004-1-5 2:19:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 There wasn't major resistance in Puerto Rico in 1898, but there was some, as US forces incurred at least 50 casualties in various skirmishes with Spanish regular and irregular forces, nearly all of which were native Puerto Ricans.
Posted by buwaya  2004-1-5 2:20:30 PM||   2004-1-5 2:20:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 There has been a strain of pro-statehood feeling in the Philippines for a long time. I recall there was an overt movement for US statehood back in the 1960's, when it seemed like most Manila taxi drivers were sold on the idea and would work hard to persuade their passengers.

I think most of these people ended up emigrating to the US or elsewhere since then.
Posted by buwaya  2004-1-5 2:24:21 PM||   2004-1-5 2:24:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 If the Filipinos and Puerto Ricans want to join the US as full-fledged states, let them vote on it. Otherwise talk about who does and who doesn't support the US is just speculation.
Posted by Tresho  2004-1-5 2:35:54 PM||   2004-1-5 2:35:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 
They don't want independence, which will make them foot all the bill for their existence, and they don't want statehood, where they'd have to pay a larger percentage of the bill.


So lemme see if I got this right: They want the bennies, but they don't want to do anything for it. Pardon me for not finding that to be much different from any other parasitical lifeform.

We can get that kind of "allegiance" from pretty much anybody in the world.
Posted by Emperor Misha I  2004-1-5 2:38:22 PM|| [http://nicedoggie.net/]  2004-1-5 2:38:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Egypt is a cheaper leech.
Posted by .com 2004-1-5 3:14:05 PM||   2004-1-5 3:14:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 USS Saribachi

SH why would anyone board a ship named after a volcano?
Posted by Shipman 2004-1-5 3:15:31 PM||   2004-1-5 3:15:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Closing Roosevelt Roads is a bad mistake, and another example of Bush's tactical brilliance and strategic stupidity. What if we need to invade Venezuela?
Posted by Pete Stanley 2004-1-5 4:06:16 PM||   2004-1-5 4:06:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Shipman.USN ammunition ships are, or were, named after volcanoes. Who says the navy doesn't have a sense of humor?
Posted by Anonymous 2004-1-5 4:08:35 PM||   2004-1-5 4:08:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Actually at the time of the Spanish-American war the Philippines were in revolt. When the S-A war ended Spain [Treaty of Paris] 'gave' the U.S. Purto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines (with their revolt thrown in for good measure) and the U.S. 'gave' Spain $20M USD as a 'gift'. But the Filipinos took it (logically) as Spain 'selling' the islands and the Filipinos to the U.S.

What followed was the American-Filipino war which lasted more then 2 years. This is part of the reason there is such anti-U.S. sentiment in the southern islands such as Jolo. It was not a very pretty war at the end.

Just before WW2 the U.S. was going to give the Philippines their independence. But not for any 'humitarian' reasons - businesses in the U.S. did not want tarrif-free trade (and cheaper goods) which the Philippines provided. Unfortunately WW2 broke out and, 7 hours after Pearl Harbor, the Philippines were invaded and taken by the Japanese.

After WW2 the Philippines gained their independance at last - after about 400 years of Spanish then American rule.

(From: The Library of Congress)

I dont know of having Purto Rico and the Philippines as states would be a good idea for the U.S. Think of what the entitlements (Welfare) would cost?
Posted by CrazyFool  2004-1-5 4:33:13 PM||   2004-1-5 4:33:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 .USN ammunition ships are, or were, named after volcanoes

Ah! So. Remind me to stay away from the Mt. Whitney. :)
Posted by Shipman 2004-1-5 4:55:57 PM||   2004-1-5 4:55:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Just a correction- Jolo, etc. were not part of the same revolt as the rest of the Philippines. They were Muslim regions, which had been in a state of perpetual war with the Spanish and Christian Filipinos for hundreds of years. Actually, when the US was through with them they settled down for thirty years. The Muslim Moros were not happy about Philippine independence, as they preferred rule by the US to that of Christian Filipinos.
Posted by buwaya  2004-1-5 5:51:35 PM||   2004-1-5 5:51:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I dont know of having Purto Rico and the Philippines as states would be a good idea for the U.S. Think of what the entitlements (Welfare) would cost?

Forget the entitlements. Think votes. Adding the Philippines and Puerto Rico would guarantee the Democrats a lock on the House of Representatives. The tradition has been one for the Democrats and one for the Republicans - not 2 for the Democrats. There were 76m Filipinos and 4m Puerto Ricans in 2000 - I just can't see either joining the US anytime soon - they'd swamp us demographically. Even back in the late 1940's, they'd have swamped the US - Filipinos numbered 21 m, while the US population was only 150 m. I like 'em and all, but that's just too many in one go. The US would become the Philippines, not the other way around.

The Puerto Ricans have had a century to acculturate - they haven't - end of story. The Filipinos took the path they took and there's no going back.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-1-5 5:55:19 PM||   2004-1-5 5:55:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Just before WW2 the U.S. was going to give the Philippines their independence. But not for any 'humitarian' reasons - businesses in the U.S. did not want tarrif-free trade (and cheaper goods) which the Philippines provided.

This argument doesn't work because even if the Philippines had remained a colony instead of choosing independence, tariff-free trade would have remained a feature of commercial relations with the US. Even post-independence, post-war tariffs on Filipino goods have been extremely low because of its underdeveloped nature. (Post-war American tariffs went south in a big way to assist in the reconstruction of allied countries' physical plants). If the Philippines had not chosen independence, it's unlikely that the US would have pushed it out.

Wretchard at Belmont Club, who is Filipino, puts it most aptly - the Filipino elites saw a chance to regain their former glory under Spanish rule and grabbed it with both hands. The Filipino elites benefitted from the consolidation of their political and economic power at the expense of the common people of the Philippines. Interestingly enough, the question of independence was never put to a direct vote by the Filipino people - although they did seal their fate by electing independence-minded representatives to power.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-1-5 6:17:49 PM||   2004-1-5 6:17:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Kentar, I don't think the battlewagons shot in PR; Vieques would have seen 5" inch fire only. A 5 inch 54 caliber shot is load pretty load on the bridge of the shooting it but, from the island, would probably sound like a muffled rumble. The aircraft probably made some noise, but they were dropping inert rounds that wouldn't have made an explosion.
To shoot at the range required closing a nice fishing area to commercial fisherman. Some of the excercises entailled a high speed approach to the shore while firing. High speed approaches while firing and commercial fishing are mutually exclusive. The bombing can be done on ranges anywhere - a dessert would be good. I don't know of anyplace that would be willing to allow the Atlantic fleet to interrupt fishing in order to conduct that type of firing excercise.

Shipman, I spelled the name wrong, as usual. I think it is Surabachi, but as I remeber another was named Nitro or Pyro. It's not only the name that makes a person uneasy with regards to ammo ships. They based all the floating shrapnel at a separate Homeport in Colt's Neck, NJ. To get to the ships you have to ride on bus out on a pier that is two miles long. The base commander has a chunk of ship dipslayed in front of his office. The story - myth or actual - was that that piece of ship hull was located in the exact spot where it landed that last time one of the ship's blew.
Posted by Super Hose  2004-1-5 6:18:48 PM||   2004-1-5 6:18:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Mt. Surabachi is memorialized at Arlington.
Posted by Fred  2004-1-5 9:37:59 PM||   2004-1-5 9:37:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Fred, Surabachi is the volcano on Iwo Jima, isn't it?
Posted by Super Hose  2004-1-5 9:54:17 PM||   2004-1-5 9:54:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 The thingy on Iwo Jima is named "Suribachi"

Here is a link to info about those particular ships (the "Nitro" class)

Posted by Pedantic Carl in NH 2004-1-5 9:57:05 PM||   2004-1-5 9:57:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 While Clark Field became derelict, Subic Bay is Fedex's larget Asian hub and FTZ
Posted by War46 2004-1-5 11:03:48 PM||   2004-1-5 11:03:48 PM|| Front Page Top

02:25 Anonymous
00:52 Phil Fraering
00:21 Jennie Taliaferro
00:10 Phil Fraering
23:47 Jennie Taliaferro
23:38 Anonymous
23:32 JenLArt
23:32 Lucky
23:28 Lucky
23:15 Lucky
23:11 Fred
23:04 El Id
23:03 War46
22:39 Steve White
22:25 Fred
22:20 Fred
22:13 Fred
22:04 Carl in NH
21:57 Alan Sullivan
21:57 Pedantic Carl in NH
21:54 Super Hose
21:50 Super Hose
21:48 RW2004
21:45 tu3031









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