Article

2003-12-20 Arabia

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Fred Pruitt 2003-12-20 00:16|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Sorry but something does not sound right about the term 'Islamic intellectual'..... It seems to me that Islam today is more like the Catholic church and europe back in the dark ages.

Posted by CrazyFool 2003-12-20 12:51:54 AM|| 2003-12-20 12:51:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 CF you nailed it. They are EXACTLY what the Kingdoms were like in the middle ages.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2003-12-20 1:53:26 AM|| 2003-12-20 1:53:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 At one time this region led most other cultures in the areas of art, philosophy, learning, science, etc. Does anyone know of a book or other study which examines the hypothesis that a relationship exists between the rise of Islam and the decline of the Arab leadership in these fields? Thanks.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-12-20 2:39:02 AM|| 2003-12-20 2:39:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Gasse Katze - there is no real relationship between the rise of islam and the arabs world's fall. Its cause is the relative rise of Europe after the reformation, and the consequent english enlightenment and its continental equivalents. The english enlightenment of course came to its greatest height in the USA.

This resulted in the separation of church and state, and the general understanding that individuals are allowed freedom of thought and ideas.

The arab world never went through this process and stagnated.

Posted by phil_b 2003-12-20 3:29:30 AM|| 2003-12-20 3:29:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 No Islam today is like the caricature of medieval catholic church as depictyed by protestants and the enlightenment.

The real catholic church was far more progressive than in the popular belief. To begin with the Inquisition had a far fairer investigation process and resorted far less to torture both than the civil courts and the XXth century vulgata.

Posted by JFM 2003-12-20 4:06:53 AM|| 2003-12-20 4:06:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 phil_b

There IS a relationship between Islam and the fall of these regions. The so-called Golden era of Islamic culture was based on a ciivilization who had been more advanced than western europe since the origins of humankind and the gap had been enlarged when the west romen empire fell while the east was sparted the barbaric invasions.

After the conquest you will find that most "islamic" advances in science and culture were performed by unconverted Jews and Christains with the remainder made by luke-warm Muslims who were notorious heretics and/or "relaxed" Muslims (drank alcohol, had illicit sex). There is NO example of any litterature or scientific discovery made by a fundamentalist Muslim. In teh course of centuries wit the Jews and Christians communities disappearing and the societies and governants becoming less and less tolerant with the relaxexd Muslims innovation disappeared.

Posted by JFM 2003-12-20 4:16:26 AM|| 2003-12-20 4:16:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 One ironical theory has it that the arabs had preserved the writings of the Classical Greek phliosophers, Aristotle in particular, and reintroduced them to the Western world. The Catholic Church while conflicted by the logic of Aristotle adapted and struggled to use the Greek logic as an addition to faith in the support of Chritianity. Thus while there was conflict between the Church and science there was also support. In struggle there was growth. In the world of Islam the strict ortodox mullahs eventually came to the conclusion that the Greek philosophys were heresy and forbade them entirely. Thus the world of Islam stopped making scientific and political progress and began to import all of their technology. This is a very abreviated summation of a half remembered theory and any errors are mine.

Posted by toad 2003-12-20 5:00:51 AM|| 2003-12-20 5:00:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 One ironical theory has it that the arabs had preserved the writings of the Classical Greek phliosophers, Aristotle in particular

its not an ironical theory, and has been well accepted for a long time. I was taught this stuff in university 30 years ago.

Otherwise, I repeat it nothing to do with the rise of islam, but everything to do with the failure of islam to keep up with the West. And I am well aware that many of the islamic scholars were in fact jews or christians.

The arabs were credited with retaining the greek knowledge allowing it to be rediscovered in Europe after the dark ages and the reformation. A good case can be made that to a significant extent that this was a eastern christian and jewish achievement as they retained much of the knowledge after the fall of the roman empire.

A lot of the really interesting ideas came from the Iona greeks who lived on what is now the Turkish coast and neighbouring islands. I believe it was Democratus who came up with idea of atoms. Not bad for 2500 years ago!

Posted by Anonymous 2003-12-20 5:43:38 AM|| 2003-12-20 5:43:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The achievements of the muslims were in direct relation to their proximity to the Byzantine (eastern Roman empire; Orthodox Christian) empire which retained the Greek heritage unbroken until 1453.

Posted by Spot 2003-12-20 8:27:45 AM|| 2003-12-20 8:27:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Another factor we tend to forget is that Islam's geographical position allowed it to borrow technology and art from India and China. I suspect that when the crusaders went to Middle East they attributed to Islam a number of Chinese or Indian inventions.

Posted by JFM 2003-12-20 8:38:31 AM|| 2003-12-20 8:38:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 There were several articles in the Winds of Change a couple of months ago by an Egyptian intellectual. The articles described an internal struggle in Islamic philosophy several centuries ago. The result of which was that the Taliban style kooks triumphed in all countries except Egypt and Turkey. It is possible that intectual giants like Einstein and Pascal have been continuously born into fundementalist areas of Islam and either been killed or forced to spend their life memorize the Koran.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-20 9:45:55 AM|| 2003-12-20 9:45:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Thanks to all for contributing to this discussion.

What I've learned here so far is that individual thought has been stifled in this once golden area of culture, but I'm still not clear when the decline started. Or as someone suggested, development ceased and the rest of the world continued to advance. In either case, Islam appears to be a contributing factor.

JFM, while it's true that the Arab region, centered on Baghdad, borrowed from the Greeks, Romans, Persians, and Indians, I understand that they also made new contributions of their own to medicine and other sciences as well as literature.

I'll check the Winds of Change archives SH, thanks. And you're probably spot on about the Pascals and Einsteins relegated to the dark corners of the Madrassa.

Anon Professor, could you recommend a source to help me with this hypothesis? I think it's correct, but I'm just not smart enough to prove it.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-12-20 10:33:23 AM|| 2003-12-20 10:33:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Minor edit, Phil_b: it was BECAUSE of separation of church and state, and respect for the right of the individual to have independent thoughts and beliefs that the enlightenment came, not the reverse. The experience of the Arabs proves you have to liberate the individual first.

Posted by Ptah 2003-12-20 10:40:14 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-12-20 10:40:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Gasse Katse

The post of mine you answered to, was the followup of another one where I discussed about who made the scientific and cultural advances in Muslim states and how the raising of fundamentalism and the suppression of dissidents are correlated with the standstill of Muslim societies.

The number of scientific innovations or cultural achievements made by Muslim fundamentalists is exactly zero. And please don't play political correctness and come saying the same was true between Christians: Cauchy was a very devout Catholic and one of the greatests mathematicians in history

Posted by JFM 2003-12-20 11:06:22 AM|| 2003-12-20 11:06:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 GK, I got curious about what I had read on Winds of Change. The material is by Egyptian writer, Tarek Heggy. Here is a the results of a search for his name on WOC: Heggy

Posted by Super Hose 2003-12-20 11:20:47 AM|| 2003-12-20 11:20:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Thanks JFM, but not to worry about the Alley Cat (GK) ever being PC.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-12-20 11:46:19 AM|| 2003-12-20 11:46:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 If I can get back to the Yemen Times article. The public and clerics were all let down by Saddam's lack of courage at the end. The Politicos now know they've got to change or they face the same fate. Only the intellectuals see his capture in terms of the big picture, which means Arab govts have to be accountable to their people.

Furthermore, given the terms of Libya's capitulation to common sense, another dictator-West basher has come around. Another "humiliation" for sure, but this time honed by British and American diplomacy, one which has a huge stick to go with the proffered carrot. A tipping point has been reached, perhaps, once the typical Arab populations, such as the one portrayed in the YTimes absorb the initial shock and then finally gets the message that the era of victimization should be terminated. Those who want to get on the train are now urged to board; those left behind will be taken under the Franco-UN tendancy. Who do you think Arabs who want to be in the winning court will follow? "Humiliation" will be felt in the new camp since these seachanges run so counter to what their textbooks have preached for the past 50 years. Don't let up on the accelerator, Bush. An aside, maybe you can take your foot off the Taiwanese for a bit. Stick up for your values for them just as much as you do for the common Arab.

Posted by Michael 2003-12-20 4:02:02 PM|| 2003-12-20 4:02:02 PM|| Front Page Top

05:54 JenLArt
05:46 JenLArt
23:53 Lucky
23:06 CrazyFool
22:43 john
22:22 James
22:09 Super Hose
22:05 Islam Sucks
22:03 Paul Moloney
21:17 JAB
21:16 Pappy
21:10 Pappy
20:47 Mercutio
20:13 Mark
20:00 rkb
19:34 Raj
19:32 Raj
19:15 Alaska Paul
18:15 Chef
18:14 Robert Crawford
18:13 rkb
18:05 rkb
17:29 Super Hose
17:21 Super Hose