Article

2003-12-05 Iraq

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Posted by Chuck Simmins 2003-12-05 9:37:13 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Would someone explain how these will help out? I don't understand. Thanks.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2003-12-5 10:21:52 AM|| 2003-12-5 10:21:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 YS, 5,000 hard chargers in an undisclosed locale in N.Iraq. Sounds like someone's going looking for Sammie. Just a hunch.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-12-5 10:36:57 AM|| 2003-12-5 10:36:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The 2nd ID line doggies are exhilarated and relieved? Just imagine how the guys and gals they're relieving feel!

Posted by Hiryu 2003-12-5 10:38:59 AM|| 2003-12-5 10:38:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Strykers should, in theory, be better-protected than Humvees - I suspect that's what they'll end up being used for. Bradley capacity: 6 infantry. Stryker capacity: 9 infantry. Bradley weight: 30 tons. Stryker weight: 19 tons. Bradley cost: $3m. Stryker cost: $2m.

I think the Stryker is viewed as something to fill the gap between the 6-ton Humvee and the 30-ton Bradley. It certainly sits smack in the middle, weight-wise. What I've read indicates that Strykers are designed to survive RPG hits. We'll find out very soon about its vulnerabilities - if Iraqis can take out an Abrams tank, they can take out lesser-armored vehicles. Still - it's better than a Humvee - and the more armored vehicles we put on the road, and the fewer Humvees, the safer our troops will be.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 10:46:16 AM|| 2003-12-5 10:46:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The concept of the Stryker Brigades is to increase mobility and still provide some armor protection. Mech Infantry at a lower weight, meaning they can go places the Bradley's cannot. Half the size of the Mech Infantry division, too. Easier and faster to deploy.

This will either be a great idea, or a monster FU. General Shineski pushed this, and I believe three Brigades are planned. Of course, Shineski's out, having given Don Rumsfeld a pain in his ass, but I think they're willing to give the concept a chance.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2003-12-5 11:10:17 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2003-12-5 11:10:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I hope these things work... but they remind me of wheeled M113s. 2 million dollars buys a lot of up armored Humvees.

Posted by Shipman 2003-12-5 11:35:23 AM|| 2003-12-5 11:35:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 2 million dollars buys a lot of up armored Humvees.

True. Armored Humvees cost about 200K a pop, meaning the choice is between one Stryker and ten armored Humvees. But their capabilities are quite different. Where a Humvee is totaled after being hit by a land mine, a Stryker is probably salvageable*. And of course, the troopers inside the Stryker are also more likely to survive, and be in a position to respond to any follow-up attacks.

* I'm sure we'll find out real soon whether these things can be repaired after taking hits.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 11:54:47 AM|| 2003-12-5 11:54:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Chuck, I thought three brigades also, but a GOOGLE search came up with this.
Six brigades are planned. The article reads like an Army training manual but is still interesting.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-12-5 11:56:37 AM|| 2003-12-5 11:56:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 And of course, the troopers inside the Stryker are also more likely to survive, and be in a position to respond to any follow-up attacks.

If you value the cost of death benefits or medical care for each trooper who's maimed at about $500K a pop, it's a little clearer why someone might choose the Stryker over the armored Humvee. And this is not counting the benefits for morale of having fewer casualties - this makes the troops more willing to take risks in combat situations. Aggressiveness is especially important in situations involving hot pursuit - if IED ambushes aren't lethal to guys in Strykers, Stryker units will chase Iraqi attackers clear across the Syrian border.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 12:03:02 PM|| 2003-12-5 12:03:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Or the Saudi border.

Posted by Matt 2003-12-5 12:24:33 PM|| 2003-12-5 12:24:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Stryker units will chase Iraqi attackers clear across the Syrian border. - Zhang Fei.
Or the Saudi border. - Matt
Trouble is, we don't have the extra two or three divisions we need to barrel across INTO these ratholes, so we can clean out the corruption at the source. I continue to curse the Clintons (and Bush I to an extent) and their followers for gutting the military Reagan built up to protect us from the world's nasties. The man shouldn't have been impeached - he should have been hung for treason.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-12-5 1:01:02 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-12-5 1:01:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Some nice links at this Army site. The photo gallery has some shots of the interior layout (second page) -- it looks pretty standard. Looks like the upper hatches are good-sized, though.

Posted by snellenr 2003-12-5 1:04:32 PM|| 2003-12-5 1:04:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 The Stryker's predecessor, the M113, weighed just 11 tons vs the Stryker's 19 tons. I suspect much of this has to do with the provision of superior protection for the Stryker.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 1:53:17 PM|| 2003-12-5 1:53:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 My old unit that I went to war with, the 2nd Armored Cav, is refitting into Strykers.

Aside from the armor and better cross-country performance (over the Humvees), these carry larger guns, are modular (new FIST-V types included), and the big thing is the computers and electronics inside. These guys can be tied directly into regimental or squadron (Thats Cav for Berigade and Battalion for you flat footers out there), and can recieve and designate targets across unit boundaries.

These things were designed to operate with Cavalry style tactics - hit and run, fast deep raids, screening, and rapid pursuit and exploitation of targets of opportunity on the battlefield.

With proper agressive leadership and the right tactics and organization (organic artillery and helicopters and engineers - like a Cavalry Regiment), these things will be damn great for the terrain and type of enemy they face over there.

One example is that these sporadic mortar attacks will become very expensive for the Hajis. Normally they'd use counterbattery artillery like we did the when I was there the first time, but these Feydaeen Saddam types fire from dense civilian areas 3-5 rounds then run like hell.

But now with the integrated systems, the fire-finder radars can directly tell the location of any mortar fire, and have the closest 2 squads on the way before the mortar shells hit. And with these things, they can go 50mph, carry a whole squad and heavy weaponry, plus they have TIDS (Thermals) built in, and can even designate for the helicopters even while moving. These pull up, drop the dismounts, and zing around with the crew and gunner to provide cover and flanking support.

*IF* they work the way we were told they should, then these will be a great addition.

My issues: It aint a track - so there are places it cannot go and things it cannot do. The "RPG-Proof" is yet to be proven and those wheels look like big targets unlike skirted tracks. The underside (mine protection) armor - did they strip it to decrease the weight so that it can be airlifted by C-130?

And lastly, are these units properly trained in the aggressive and relatively flat organic structure that is needed for this brigade to operate properly? You cannot treat your battalion like its your own little kingdom, and have to talk cross to all the battalions in the brigade. Plus the organic arty, engineers and helicopters have to be used to quick tasking and working across battalions instead of up to brigade & division and then back down.

Posted by Dragoon 2003-12-5 1:55:26 PM|| 2003-12-5 1:55:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 It aint a track - so there are places it cannot go and things it cannot do. The "RPG-Proof" is yet to be proven and those wheels look like big targets unlike skirted tracks.

Whatever the Stryker's reaction to RPG strikes, it should provide superior protection compared to the M113, given the the 19-ton to 11-ton weight difference, and way superior protection compared to the Humvee. At 50 mph, it's also way faster than the M113, whose top speed was 35 mph. The tires have hard rubber cores, so that the vehicle will continue rolling even after the tires are shot out, albeit with some handling problems. With tracked vehicles, once the track comes off, the vehicle's like a beached whale.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 2:20:47 PM|| 2003-12-5 2:20:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Among the integrated systems Dragoon mentions is FBCB2. Info systems like FBCB2, based on secure battlefield networks, give commanders much better situational awareness and allow the rapid integration of different kinds of units, which in turn supports the sort of tactics Dragoon mentions in his paragraph 14.

Posted by rkb 2003-12-5 2:25:08 PM|| 2003-12-5 2:25:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Clintons (and Bush I to an extent) and their followers for gutting the military"

Just as a reminder, when Dubya came in, main admin thrust in increased defense spending was for ballistic missile defense, NOT for more divisions. In fact they were considering cutting the army from 10 to 8 divisions, before 9/11. Blame Clinton for poor readiness. Blame him for not advancing BMD, if you wish. But dont blame him for lack of enough divisions.

BTW, IIUC, DoD has STILL not announced any plans to increase number of divisions.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-12-5 4:14:22 PM|| 2003-12-5 4:14:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Blame Clinton for poor readiness. Blame him for not advancing BMD, if you wish. But dont blame him for lack of enough divisions.

The problem isn't one of allocation - it's of total budget size. The reason we don't have more divisions is because of the defense budget cuts that were enacted after Clinton was elected. This was the so-called peace dividend that Clinton used to balance the budget, while simultaneously increasing social spending.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-12-5 4:20:56 PM|| 2003-12-5 4:20:56 PM|| Front Page Top

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