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2003-11-17 Europe

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Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 3:21:34 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Murat, how new of a phenomenon is car-bombing in Turkey? I've read of previous terrorist attacks, but I don't recall any of them involving this particular procedure.

Posted by Patrick Phillips 2003-11-17 3:29:44 AM|| 2003-11-17 3:29:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Well car bombing in this scale is new, two small trucks of the type Isuzu have been used each with an estimated 400Kg of explosives. Previous car bombs be it perpetrated by the mafia of terrorists where aimed to blow up and kill the driver. But suicide bombing is not new, in the nineties more than 20 suicide attacks have occurred, the PKK used women disguised as pregnant women wrapped with explosives.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 3:56:54 AM|| 2003-11-17 3:56:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 In Istanbul there are 17 synagogues, these synagogues should be closed and be replaced by 3 or 4 new bigger ones outside residential areas with a security wall around it.

Nope. You think Istanbul's (and presumably also Ankara's, Izmir's, Adana's... ) population should have their lives dictated by terrorists, Murat? That kind of pre-emptive surrender is precicely what encourages further acts of terror. I hope your answer to the problem isn't a generally held one in Turkey, that the Jews should be sent outside the city walls, because this is appeasement if ever I heard it.

No surrender to terrorism, Murat!

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-17 4:32:00 AM|| 2003-11-17 4:32:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 population should have their lives dictated by terrorists. I hope your answer to the problem isn't a generally held one in Turkey, that the Jews should be sent outside the city walls,

No Bulldog thatâs not what I meant, banning Jews outside the city walls. But something should be done to the safety, most of the Synagogues in Istanbul are very old and in the middle of what has become residential area. There are a lot of squares in the middle of the Istanbul, which is twice or triple the size of London where better security measures can be taken. Also the buildings could be build stronger, I donât see that as a surrender to terror.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 4:53:58 AM|| 2003-11-17 4:53:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 It is. You are proposing doing the terrorists' work for them - reducing the Jewish presence in Turkey. The next logical step would appear to me to be ghettoization: what happens if (and it's a dodgy if - I think isolated fortress synagogues would be an invitation to al Qaeda as much as a challenge) the next targets are Jewish residences, shops or businesses in Istanbul?

The answer is not to effectively punish the targets for having been targetted, but to chase after those murderers who set out to kill them. You've got it all back-to-front, Murat, and what you want to see is at best a lazy short-term solution to the problem, but effectively a concession that the Turkish authorities are unable or unwilling to defend Jewish Turkish citizens from attack. Shake off that bunker mentality.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-17 5:51:12 AM|| 2003-11-17 5:51:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 reducing the Jewish presence in Turkey.

What the heck are you talking about, the Jewish population are living 500 years with us and that wonât change they are as Turkish as I am. Fighting terror is not done only by chasing the terrorist but also by preventive measures. Do you fight fire only when it occurs or do you take all the necessary precautions? Fighting fire is not just only done by fire fighters but also a fire secure building etc.etc. The same counts for synagogues, at least in Istanbul, these need much more secure locations than the current ones. Not only for the Jewish community but also for every citizen of Istanbul.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 6:26:20 AM|| 2003-11-17 6:26:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 What you're advocating is demolishing all synagogues in residential areas, and reconstructing a handful in isolated area away from the general poopulation. If that's not a "reduction in Jewish presence", I don't know what is. Would you object to all mosques in residential areas being demolished and a far smaller nukber built in isolated areas to replace them, if some minority group decided to bomb them? Turkey ought to be proud of its Jewish community, but if you're really prepared to stand shoulder to shoulder with them, you shouldn't be trying to push them away.

Do you fight fire only when it occurs or do you take all the necessary precautions?

Another misplaced fire analogy?! This is more like "arson" than "fire", in that it's a human activity not a force of nature. If your house is at risk of arson, you take sensible precautions, but you only move out if you think your precautions are wasted because the authorities and your neighbours are not going to help protect you.

Not only for the Jewish community but also for every citizen of Istanbul.

Particularly because the majority of victims were in fact Muslims, right? I suspect you'd be less vocal in your enthusiam for tearing down the local synagogues had the victims exclusively been Jews. Am I right?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-17 6:44:44 AM|| 2003-11-17 6:44:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 No you are wrong in you misplaced perception of
Turkish Jews. :
"A million bombs cannot drive us Jews out of here," said Josef Habib Gerez, a 77-year-old painter in Istanbul's Galata neighborhood, home to Neve Shalom, the city's largest synagogue.

"This is our home and so it shall remain," he said, shaking his fist in anger.

Jewish religious leaders were said to have been so impressed by their reception that, according to historical accounts, one rabbi, Yitzhak Sarfati, wrote back to his congregation: "If you listen to me, the road to Turkey is the road of life. Do not dally, but come to this place of comfort. Here everyone lives happily and peacefully in the shade of his own vine and fig tree."

I am advocating more security, it is a crime to humanity to target temples but it is a shameful fact, synagogues nowadays need more protection and security, and rebuilding them at more secure locations with security walls in its perimeter is better than ignoring the facts. If mosques in Britain where threatened I would advocate the same, security and human lives come first. By the way what makes you believe I am very religious, I believe in God/Allah just enought not to be an atheist, but for the rest I am not a practicing muslim FYI, Jew vs Muslim has nothing to do with my views here.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 7:05:05 AM|| 2003-11-17 7:05:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 I didn't assume you were very religious, Murat. You wouldn't have to be very religious to realise that as a non-Jew, you're unlikely to be intentionally targetted by bombers who are (presently) after Jews. I'd expect some of the Muslims, Christians, atheists, agnositics, White Wizards and Moon-worshipers of Istanbul to argue that Jewish terror targets be moved as far away from them as possible in these circumstances. You can call it being a NIMBY if you like.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-17 7:24:06 AM|| 2003-11-17 7:24:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 ...as a non-Jew, you're unlikely to be intentionally targetted by bombers...

Although I'd add these bombers were well aware that non-Jews would be killed. I think they wanted to divide Turkish society just as much as they wanted to kill Jews, and an attitude like yours is helping them do just that.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-11-17 8:17:12 AM|| 2003-11-17 8:17:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Moving Jewish targets as far as possible is not the case here Bulldog, but moving them out of dense shopping and living residences should be. The Neve Shalom blast caused 24 death and 303 injured because in 5 streets both sides of the blast buildings where damaged, windows shattered and the glass raining down on the passing pedestrians, newer modern and more beautiful Synagogues could be build in less dense parts of the city where you can create also better parking facilities, thatâs not something negative, by the way it is also the wish of the chief Rabbi who asked the help of the city council and prime minister Erdogan for that.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 8:17:41 AM|| 2003-11-17 8:17:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Sure, Murat -- the Jews in Turkey are just as much Turks as you are. That's why you want to destroy all of their existing synagogues and force them to places where future antisemitic attacks won't kill as many Muslims.

No, you couldn't advocate doing something useful, like, say, digging out the fanatics who did this, or discrediting the Islamist movement in Turkey. Nope; the problem is that the Jews are in the wrong place.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-17 9:03:10 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-17 9:03:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Of all the responses to this article, my suprise meter doesn't budge that he says 'Move the Jews' as opposed to 'stop the Islamic hate'. Whatever. Murat's never had any credibility anyways.

Posted by Swiggles 2003-11-17 9:17:56 AM|| 2003-11-17 9:17:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Robert,

First I don't see this as an attack on Jews, but as an attack on Turkey and be sure that everything is done to catch the bastards who have done this. Years ago a lunatic made also a housemade bomb which ripped down halve of a building killing 80 people in the USA if I remember well, does anybody know what kind of bomb that was. The bombs used in Istanbul seem to be an housemade mixture too.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 9:20:42 AM|| 2003-11-17 9:20:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 And Swiggles,

Who says Islamists have bombed Istanbul, as far as it is known investigations still continue, you are making assumptions. Some terror groups have claimed the bombings but no firm clues have be materialized yet.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 9:25:17 AM|| 2003-11-17 9:25:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Murat, if you don't see it "as an attack on Jews", why have you put forward moving them as your solution? What about dealing with the terrorists?! Why do you accept that Jews are going to be attacked?

BTW -- the 1993 WTC bomb was "homemade". Those involved were definitely Islamists, possibly connected to al'Qaeda and/or Iraq. The type of explosive means nothing.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-17 10:03:00 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-17 10:03:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Who says Islamists have bombed Istanbul

You're right; there's a good chance it was a Unitarian splinter group. Or maybe a radical group of urban planners.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-17 10:16:00 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-17 10:16:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 "newer modern and more beautiful Synagogues could be build in less dense parts of the city where you can create also better parking facilities, thatâs not something nega"

IIUC all of Istanbuls synagogues are at least nominally Orthodox. They have to at least theoritically be within walking distance of the centers of the communities they serve, since Orthodox Judaism bans driving on the Sabbath.

I dont know, but it may the case that the several synagogues serve different community traditions (IIRC Istanbul Jews include communities tracing their roots to various parts of the Balkans, among other distinctions) So consolidating would be a difficult thing.

Better security is a good thing, and certainly necessary, but if it involves large scale consolidation and movement that may bring into question whether Istanbul is genuinely a safe place for Jews. Elderly Jews like the one quoted may stay, but you dont renew a community with the elderly alone. Im not saying not to improve security, but if you really want to preserve Turkeys historic Jewish community, elimination the terrorists is a better course by far.

In any case, as Murat says, this is an attack on TURKEY. If, as is likely the case, it was AQ, it was probably motivated largely by the nature of Turkish society, which is a threat and an insult to the Jihadists. (not to mention continuing resentment over the abolition of the caliphate) You cant move all vulnerable TURKISH targets out to safer locations - what you have to do is fight the perpetrators.

Good luck to Turkey in doing so. Methings AQ has picked the wrong people to mess with this time.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-17 10:20:17 AM|| 2003-11-17 10:20:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 heres more on the current situation of the Jews of Istanbul

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-17 10:47:49 AM|| 2003-11-17 10:47:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Robert,

Not the WTC, I don't know what building it was, an American aged around 30 blew up a building, can't remember the place anymore.

Posted by Murat 2003-11-17 10:48:23 AM|| 2003-11-17 10:48:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 ok lets try this

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=736&e=10&u=/ap/20031117/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_jews_among_muslims

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-17 10:48:52 AM|| 2003-11-17 10:48:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Murat, I get the reference to the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, OK? I was point out that, yes, Islamists use homebrew explosives.

The odds that this wasn't done by Islamists is virtually nil; any reasonable evaluation of the events comes to that conclusion.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-17 10:54:29 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-17 10:54:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 I have a feeling this was AQ lashing out. Unfortunately for them, Turkey is probably wrong target to f*ck with. From what I've gathered, as the Turks are not Arabs and are much more secular then the other ME countries. Couple that w/having good relations to the Israelis & Jewish Turks, this is indeed an attack on all Turkish citizens in their view. The aim was causing disension between the Jews and Muslims but I believe from what I've read that this will back fire on the terrorists. The Turks don't want some outside foreign jihadi assholes telling them how to run their country.

My condolences to all victims & their families. I pray the cowards responsible are dealt with in a most servere and inhumane manner.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-17 11:35:31 AM|| 2003-11-17 11:35:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Fortunately, I think most Turks have more backbone than Murat. Rather than allow the terrorists to push them around and dictate who they can and can not safely associate with...or where they can place buildings deemed unfit...they will stand up and fight back. Murat's suggestion to move the synagogues proves he is a wussy.

Posted by B 2003-11-17 12:08:28 PM|| 2003-11-17 12:08:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Islamic murderers targeted the synagogues for a specific reason. To make people uncomfortable with Jews in their neighborhoods. Murat is falling for it. Of course, like it's only natural, the Jews need to be treated differently. They bring the rath of allah. Man, Islam is sick.

Posted by Lucky 2003-11-17 1:07:00 PM|| 2003-11-17 1:07:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Exactly, Oklahoma city, OK I am not saying it is not done by radical terrorists of Islamic faith (although these people cannot have any fate), it is not a fact yet, all possibilities have to be checked.

Murat, you're hearing thundering hooves and expecting zebras.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-17 1:29:47 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-17 1:29:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Bulldog and others:

Please, cut Murat some slack: he is a reflexive antiamerican (probably contaminated by too much leftist propaganda, very common even in right wing people). However he sounds like a nationalistic Turk not an islamist: he speaks positively of Ataturk who dissolved Caliphate, secularized Turkey and is hated by people who have sympathies for Al Quaida.

Posted by JFM 2003-11-17 4:13:25 PM|| 2003-11-17 4:13:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 You know, some days people here are reasonable people, but other days, I end up getting rather annoyed at people jumping down others' throats. Whether or not you agree with everything someone (in this case Murat) says, the points you disagree with could surely be debated without rudeness and namecalling. Of course, this was a much better bunch of arguments than some others I have seen here. There are times for namecalling of course, IMHO, such as obvious trolls who don't want to discuss anything reasonably and don't provide accurate facts, but with most others, I think we could all use just a little more levelheadedness in responses. And possibly, (I may be stretching it here) not as much stereotyping of Murat et al.'s views given that we only see some of what they believe, and we tend to see only what we want to see at that time.

Posted by S 2003-11-17 10:43:51 PM|| 2003-11-17 10:43:51 PM|| Front Page Top

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