Article

2003-11-13 Europe

Germany and France exploring an alliance

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Posted by Steve 2003-11-13 11:17:05 AM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Aw, we don't need those guys. We can start our own club! We can have mapes and secret codes, and that dumb Belgium can't join! Nyah!

Posted by BH 2003-11-13 11:21:03 AM|| 2003-11-13 11:21:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Actually, the headline should read:

France Asks for German Takeover

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2003-11-13 11:36:51 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2003-11-13 11:36:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Iâm sure there are more than a few european nations that would also have a problem with the Germans getting anywhere near the French nukes. They remember history all too well.

So do I. Germany almost had the Atomic bomb first, but several factors prevented them from attaining it. To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought.

Posted by Charles 2003-11-13 11:48:25 AM|| 2003-11-13 11:48:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 BH: rest assured that the Belgian poodles will be yapping to join the Bund.

Posted by Steve White 2003-11-13 11:54:25 AM|| 2003-11-13 11:54:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Germany has made several tries at having influence / control of nuclear weapons developed by other nations ... France and UK, primarily, but also through NATO of US weapons. (Anybody remember Multilateral Force debates?)

They've also signed the non-proliferation treaty, IIRC, which means this is their only approach to having them, unless they were willing to repudiate that agreement. They haven't given up getting them and will keep trying, I think, while also looking down on countries that openly develop them (c.f. the US).

Posted by rkb 2003-11-13 12:16:47 PM|| 2003-11-13 12:16:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Anytime someone talks about the Germans having anything to do with nukes, even peripherally, Tom Lehrer's song from the 1960's pops into my head.

MLF [Multilateral Force] Lullaby:
Sleep, baby, sleep, in peace may you slumber,
No danger lurks, your sleep to encumber.
We've got the missiles, peace to determine,
And one of the fingers on the button will be German.

Why shouldn't they have nuclear warheads?
England says no, but they all are soreheads.
I say a bygone should be a bygone,
Let's make peace the way we did in Stanleyville and Saigon.

Once all the Germans were warlike and mean,
But that couldn't happen again.
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they've hardly bothered us since then.

So, sleep well, my darling, the sandman can linger.
We know our buddies won't give us the finger.
Heil - hail - the Wehrmacht, I mean the Bundeswehr,
Hail to our loyal ally!
M L F
Will scare Brezhnev. [Soviet leader at the time]
I hope he is half as scared as I!

The more things change, the more they remain the same. Too bad the French don't realize that.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2003-11-13 12:32:24 PM|| 2003-11-13 12:32:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Re: german influence over French nukes

Does anyone here really think the Germans would be less responsible than the French? I dont.

Re: whats going on - the EU superstate project has always largely been, for France, a way to harnass German economic might to French political interests. If the EU doesnt function that way, their logical alternative is a bilateral combination - since they dont have the economic strenght on their own to challenge the "hyperpower". OTOH from the German point of view, the EU project was a chance to extend influence and economic ties to the East, without the resistance that an expanion of purely German power eastward would bring. A franco-german combo doesnt accomplish that, and so would seem to have little to offer the Germans.

TGA?

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-13 12:50:27 PM|| 2003-11-13 12:50:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Something smell a little Vichy here.

Posted by Atrus 2003-11-13 1:50:17 PM|| 2003-11-13 1:50:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "Iâm sure there are more than a few european nations that would also have a problem with the Germans getting anywhere near the French nukes."

AFAIK, it's only the *British* tabloids that harbour this kind of nationalistic xenophobia towards the Germans. In the rest of the continent, it's evil ideologies that we are primarily scared of, not evil ethnic groups. E.g. remember the reaction about Heider?

"They remember history all too well. "

Oh, better than you do, I wager. They remember what it means to demonize a whole people, for example.

"To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought."

Scarier than Russia and China possessing them? Scarier than Pakistan and India possessing them?

Obsessed about WW2, much?

Do you think that Japan possessing nukes would also be a scary thought? And if not, why?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 1:54:43 PM|| 2003-11-13 1:54:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 To think that Germany would get Nuclear Warheads is a frightening thought." Scarier than Russia and China possessing them?

Aris you're right..... It wouldn't bother the Russians a bit. They're a mature country which will refuse to demonize the sons of the Teutonic Horde.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-13 2:01:33 PM|| 2003-11-13 2:01:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 In the rest of the continent, it's evil ideologies that we are primarily scared of, not evil ethnic groups.

Really? I suggest you go back and consult a recent poll on who Europeans view as the biggest threats to world peace.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-13 3:00:20 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-13 3:00:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 haha good one Robert (again).

Posted by Rafael 2003-11-13 3:06:28 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:06:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Robert, you beat me to it! :) The Europeans prove over and over again that they can't help but judge people by ethnicity. To say otherwise is ridiculous as this truth is made abundantly clear through their words, their polls and their actions.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2003-11-13 3:21:22 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:21:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 This has been tried over and over from Charlemagne to Petain. France and Germany are the Ross and Rachel of countries.

Posted by Christopher Johnson 2003-11-13 3:21:29 PM|| [http://mcj.bloghorn.com/] 2003-11-13 3:21:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 all I see is the bugs bunny episode (a tree grows in Brooklyn) with the two dogs. One surly bulldog and one mincing suck-up.

Posted by eyeyeye 2003-11-13 3:23:13 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:23:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Robert> If you are referring to Israel, then a couple years back that might very well have been "Bosnia". Or "Yugoslavia" in general. Would that mean European were demonizing the Slavs?

What country's situation causes a greater threat to world peace? Israel is currently in war with the Palestinians, is in danger of war with Syria and Lebanon, and if Saudi Arabia goes Islamic will be in danger of war with that one as well.

That doesn't mean Israel wouldn't be on the *right side* in these wars. It would indeed be on the right, given how much more horrible its opponents and potential opponents are.

But people who don't see the situation of Israel as a risk to world peace are frankly deluding themselves.

Rafael> Easily amused, I see.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:26:42 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:26:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Actually I'm curious... The Greeks saw the Israelis as the big threat... where did Turkey end up on the list? Wasn't that long ago that yawl were rumbling.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-13 3:33:56 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:33:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Shipman> And when you actually read what I wrote, perhaps you'll be able to answer. Until then drop the non-sequiturs.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:34:07 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:34:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Shipman> Actually most Greeks saw the Americans as the big threat -- it was all the rest of the Europeans saw Israel.

I doubt many people would see Turkey as a threat to *world* peace, since few people would expect the whole world to go to war defending us.

Threat to us specifically is a different question.

And the poll had a certain list of countries people were asked to choose from -- Turkey wasn't included, I think.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-13 3:49:37 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:49:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 The problem with saying that 'Israel is the biggest threat to world peace' is that it implies that Israel is in the wrong. Putting the lie to your statement Aris. Now if the Euroweenies had said 'the Israeli-Palestine issue is the biggest threat' it would be different. But then again, most here know that the Eurotrash don't think Israel has a right to exist.

Posted by Swiggles 2003-11-13 3:58:07 PM|| 2003-11-13 3:58:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 First the nukes... they seem to concern you most. Well, my friends the only ones who should be afraid of Germans possessing nukes are... the nukes! Germany never wanted nukes, a majority doesn't even want nuclear power plants.
Excuse me, what do we need nukes for? To scare the hell out of... Liechtenstein? This is all nonsense and I can't remember a serious discussion with people in Germany wanting to have nukes. Not even the French ones. We'd just try to abolish them.

L'union franco-allemande... well that "dream" sems to be rather confined to the chancellors entourage. Remember he had a French consultant, Brigitte Sauzay (a Mitterand confidente), who died two days ago. There has certainly been a rapprochement due to the joint opposition to the Iraq war, but the French and German systems are still quite incompatible... gaullist centralism versus German federalism. What we share is bureaucracy and a lame economy (we're at least trying to do something about that now).

That said, Germany needs to be integrated firmly into a European Union coming closer together... reading Charles I see that the "old fears" of an independent strong Germany are not likely to go away anytime soon. So if a Europe of 25 states fails (or degenerates into a loose association of states minding their own business), Germany will need to look to alternatives... one could certainly be a "core Europe" (the original European Community minus Italy) plus strengthened ties to Eastern Europe and Russia on the backburner.

The political class in Germany still is very "atlantic" and once we put the current irritations with the U.S. to rest, Germany will probably try to reassume its role as a transatlantic mediator with the U.S. on one side and France (plus Eastern Europe) on the other.

The conservative powers (bound to return very soon) will not jeopardize 50 years of close ties to the United States. Germany remains by large the most "americanized" country of Europe. Not many people speak French here.

As for that "Israel as biggest threat to world peace"... I think that poll was fundamentally flawed. I am rather sure that people were thinking about the Israel-Palestine conflict as the biggest threat, not the state of Israel (or the Jews). And nobody could possibily deny that this conflict IS a threat to world peace. We're not discussing whose fault that is here.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-11-13 4:25:38 PM|| 2003-11-13 4:25:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Sorry,but every time I see an article on French-German(f before g in English alphabet),I immediately am reminded of Larry Bond's CAULDRON.

Posted by Stephen 2003-11-13 5:42:38 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:42:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 True German Ally, I think you are probably right, the Germans would agitate until the French finally got rid of their nukes. They would like to share the Security Council seat (and I don't blame them).

What confuses me is all this talk about what if the Europe of 25 fails. Well then you have a Europe of 20, or 15, or however many get along. That might end up being just Germany France and Benilux. Trying to set up a backup plan (a) sabotages the original plan somewhat by showing no confidence (b) presupposes that the French and whomever the backup plan was made with aren't the cause of the breakup in the first place.

I'm really interested to see how the Central thinking France-first French are going to get along with the rest of Europe. I don't see a whole lot of happy politics going on.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-13 5:51:01 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:51:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 And when you actually read what I wrote, perhaps you'll be able to answer. Until then drop the non-sequiturs

Sorry about that Aris, thought you could deduce my thoughts on that. I was wrong.

I doubt many people would see Turkey as a threat to *world* peace, since few people would expect the whole world to go to war defending us

Okay I see your point here.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-13 6:28:31 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:28:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Does anyone remember an episode of "Star Trek - The Next Generation" in which was mentioned a nuclear war during the mid-21st century involving something called "the European Hegemony"?

Posted by Jeff 2003-11-14 12:15:42 AM|| 2003-11-14 12:15:42 AM|| Front Page Top

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