Article

2003-11-13 Europe

~~Frogistan~~ France seeks command structure independent of U.S., Europe

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Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-11-13 4:47:37 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Alaska Paul...they're already dead in the water. LOL!

Posted by Seafarious 2003-11-13 4:55:02 PM|| 2003-11-13 4:55:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Seafarious---LMAO! Thanks. Wonder how the DeGaulle is doing these days. Join the French Navy and see Toulons...always got a kick out of that Rantburg comment!

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-11-13 5:18:04 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:18:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Seems like it would've been easier all around if the Frogicrats had stayed out of NATO in the first damn place...

Posted by mojo 2003-11-13 5:41:53 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:41:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 IIRC, France pulled out of NATO once via DeGaulle. I wouldn't want to have my life dependent upon the whims of the French command. I guess that the French leadership will just sail on until they drop off the edge of the earth on their own accord.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-11-13 5:49:16 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:49:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 I don't think they can afford the $$$ for this.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2003-11-13 5:49:28 PM|| 2003-11-13 5:49:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 That's rich. They want to play super power, but they've got to use others' hardware to do so. AP is right...this thing was still-born.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2003-11-13 6:01:06 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:01:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Caddy Shack.

The CVN Reagan comes to see the yacht club at Brest.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-13 6:13:54 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:13:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 What are they going to move that 20k troops with? We supply all the airlift capabilities to NATO. Are they going to call Uncle Sam for a lift when they decide to take over the diamond mines in Africa?

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-13 6:14:59 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:14:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Smart of French to plan ahead-if you have a plan and others don't,guess who takes charge.
Then,again,it would be interesting to compare French planning for large sortie rate w/Nato warplans and experience Nato had in Bosnia.
Still kind of sad when you think about it.To maintain 600 sorties/day would require commitment of most of Western Europe's Air Forces.The only aerial refuelers are a couple of dozen KC-135s and about same British converted bombers.So the force isn't going to do any loitering waiting for weapons clearance,it isn't going to go too far to bomb anyone,and it has to have prepared airbases-as there are no expeditionary units equiped to refurbish and stock foreign airfields.Without massive spending increases(and I agree with Yosemite Sam)the only targets within reach would have to be in Europe.
To get a 600/day sortie rate would require a massive Euro effort.In that same 24hr. period the US could easily launch over 600 cruise missiles.US carrier based aviation on its own could launch 600 sorties/day for a while.The US has a choice of proven options for attacking a heavily defended dug-in target;Europe has the option of launching a massive raid and risk heavy losses to do so.
Will Europe spend the money to develope the ability to project power outside of its heartland like the US has?I for one am doubtful.

Posted by Stephen 2003-11-13 6:32:45 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:32:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Of course, France would never use military force without the explicit approval of the United Nations Security Council. And the US Ambassador is gonna hit the "veto" button faster than a Jeopardy contestant.

Posted by Matt 2003-11-13 6:43:22 PM|| 2003-11-13 6:43:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I thought France participated only in the non-military portions of NATO. I'm a little fuzzy on what the non-military portions of a defense treaty oraganization could be.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-13 7:47:05 PM|| 2003-11-13 7:47:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 what the non-military portions of a defense treaty oraganization could be.

Donut Dollies.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-13 8:19:58 PM|| 2003-11-13 8:19:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Hmmm ... re: airlift capacity, isn't there a French / German consortium working on a cargo plane roughly equivalent to the C-130?

Dassault makes rather good jet fighters. It's not out of the realm of possiblity that France + Germany could deploy real airlift capability in a few years, so maneuvering to create support and a command structure to use them isn't a ludicrous move.

The real issue will be getting everyone else to pay the French to make them (& make a profit off of them).

I think they're dead serious about wanting to oppose the US permanently. Whether they will muster the political will and the money is an open question, but if they are trending towards Sharia in the near future, I don't write off that possibility one bit.

Posted by rkb 2003-11-13 9:14:30 PM|| 2003-11-13 9:14:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Lemme see here, now... The French want to be able to reach the point where they can launch 600 sorties a day.

A US combat wing has approximately 80 combat aircraft, of which 70 or so are expected to be combat-ready at any time. That number closely matches a carrier air group in number. We have some thirty tactical combat wings, and eight to ten DEPLOYED carrier air groups. We routinely practice "surges", which means a maximum number of aircraft in the air for a maximum number of sorties. I remember one exercise at Shaw, involving five wings, that flew 540 combat training sorties in 22 hours, including aerial refueling of every aircraft. During the Vietnam War, carrier aircraft routinely flew two or three missions per day, day after day, for months at a time. The French hope to be able to reach that level in two years.

First, I don't think the French have, or have control of, the 200+ combat aircraft it would take to accomplish what they plan. Their "carrier task force" is a worldwide joke. They have virtually NO air refueling capacity, which means their strike radius is limited to approximately 1000 kilometers - half the maximum range of their Mirage V fighter-bombers (unless they don't plan for them to come home, which would extend their maximum range to almost 2000 kilometers).

There's quite a bit more to sustaining a sortie rate of 600 per day than just getting aircraft airborne. Yes, an AWACS can help, but even that isn't going to be enough. The command and control network (not just an isolated point), the intelligence capability (where those sorties are to be used), and secure communications are just a small portion of what they'll have to develop.

If France wants to build a military capable of confronting the United States, or of usurping NATO roles, it's going to take more than a few more fighters, some command structure, and planning. It' also going to take more than two years to get it all together. I don't think the French economy, or the French attention span, can withstand what it takes to reach that goal.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-11-13 9:28:26 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-11-13 9:28:26 PM|| Front Page Top

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