Article

2003-11-08 Europe

Bosnia offers to send troops to Iraq, host US bases

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Posted by Fred Pruitt 2003-11-08 06:15|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'd been holding off buying a surprise meter due to your recent problems. I may reconsider.
Should I go with a name brand (HP) or does HeathKit make one?

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-8 8:03:05 AM|| 2003-11-8 8:03:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I think they are mistaken about what a US base would bring to their country. The cash flow would be welcome, but they could probably do without the flypaper effect.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-8 10:58:37 AM|| 2003-11-8 10:58:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 If you can do the engineering yourself, I strongly recommend doing so. On top of that, I've got a personal bias against letting anyone else interface (even indirectly) to my wetware.
If you do it yourself, you can add in other nifty features, like a "satisfaction meter" and a salt detector. I've got mine rigged with an audible alarm that goes off whenever the salt detector reads low.
If you can't do your own engineering, but can understand someone else's, I'd go with the Heathkit. They've got both wet-interfacing and purely external models.
If you can't do the engineering at all, I'd go with a flexible pure-external.

Posted by Dishman 2003-11-8 11:05:16 AM|| 2003-11-8 11:05:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Sigh. There are already too many Muslims in Iraq, thank you. Clean up your own act, children, and drop this inane time-bomb called ethnicity. It doesn't mean shit cuz it's an accident of birth. Merit is all that matters because it's the only thing over which anyone can exercise control. The equation is very simple. if it's a choice, then it goes into the judging pool. If not, it's irrelevant. Color, race, ethnicity, gender - all luck of the draw, so they don't mean dick. Choices, those things you choose, DO matter. Thank you for your kind offer.

Posted by .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 11:26:14 AM|| 2003-11-8 11:26:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 There are already too many Muslims in Iraq, thank you

So, having more put there won't harm things now, will it? Except perhaps in showing the Islamists that this isn't an infidels-against-the-faithful campaign but a freedom-against-tyranny one?

Unless you don't trust Muslims in Iraq -- in which case you shouldn't have gone there in the first place, because Muslims existing in Iraq are the one fact that nobody has yet sought to change.

Myself, I think Arabs could use come contact with the secular Muslims of Bosnia.

Clean up your own act, children, and drop this inane time-bomb called ethnicity.

Agreed... this time-bomb called "nationality"... One more reason to support the EU for me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-8 11:40:20 AM|| 2003-11-8 11:40:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 LOL! You would take the one joke line and focus on it, spend most of your time on it - and ignore the important shit.

Clique-ism, tribalism, nationalism, racism, genderism... all points on the same stupidity curve... for the reasons I pointed out.

Normally I'm not one to bait you, because you are a pedant and unworthy of debate, but your conclusion is asinine. How is the EU anything different from nationality writ-large? Same circle-the-wagons game, just with more wagons.

In fact, we all know it's the ankle-biter / PFrench gambit to check American hegemony. Yep, by all means get your EU thing up and cooking. That'll fix everything. Good for you, bro, I hope it works out.

Posted by .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 12:04:40 PM|| 2003-11-8 12:04:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 "You would take the one joke line"

Um, so does that mean you don't have any real problem with Muslim troops in Iraq? If that's the case, then you made it difficult for me to distinguish your joke remark from other people's serious comments about them also not wanting foreign Muslim troops in Iraq.

"How is the EU anything different from nationality writ-large?"

Because it moves towards the direction of transnational unity, diminishing the relevance of the nation-state. Or even the relevance of larger ethnic groupings like the Francophones-vs-the-Germanic tribes-vs-the Slavs.

The more nationalistic divisions removed and rendered impotent, the better.

Ofcourse from *your* perspective you see only the whole America-vs-Europe thing, and from *your* perspective it doesn't matter one bit if internal European nationalisms are destroyed.

From my own European perspective, it matters quite a lot. I'm sure it matters quite a lot from the perspective of my fellow Balkanians in Bosnia as well.

Perhaps the day will one day come to exchange the EU for an even wider global federation. But since that's not currently a possibility, your criticism of EU as irrelevant to the ceding of nationalism, is quite ludicrous -- seemingly based on the proposition that if we can't render *all* nationalisms impotent at one stroke, then we shouldn't try to render any nationalism impotent at all.

Ludicrous.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-8 12:39:05 PM|| 2003-11-8 12:39:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I think the American Experimentâ¢ as a melting pot for people from many nations is a proven thing. I hope the eu experiment is at least minimally successful, because we're too busy right now to bail them out again.

dorf (anonymous as ever)

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-8 12:54:25 PM|| 2003-11-8 12:54:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 If you were anyone else, I would ask you to respond to what I said, rather than inventing shit so you can respond with predigested tripe, but in your case that's asking too much. I've read enough of your commentary to harbor such wildly unreasonable expectations. That would be asking you to stop being yourself.

I believe it's quite simple: it's the Reward Model, stupid. What follows is 100% personal opinion and homegrown.

Every society, whether based on the rule of law and secularism, religion, or whatever indoctrinates its children with a mixture of truth and bullshit. It only differs in mix and degree. Some adults learn to be more pragmatic, so they may subjugate it for mercantile or other interests, but they are also often blind to reason (change) as it is far more ingrained in their identity.

The primary positive aspect of dissolving nation-states into a larger entity is, if the larger goal is kept faithfully in view and pursued honestly, a reduction in / removal of historical enmities, misunderstandings, self-serving lies, etc. (The former Yugoslavia with its Serb-dominated official "creative" history was a classic example of a system in dire need of reality checks). The education system is where this can be changed most effectively and with the best long-term results. Assuming it's actually attempted, it's at least a generation away from bearing fruit - and two if you count the time it will take before these enlightened people are in charge of anything. And the society must reward them all along the way to reinforce the change.

I do not envy Europe - you have much more baggage (history, culture, traditions, etc.) than we do. Our version, the PC celebrating diversity (ethnicity, etc.) and such asinine "rainbow" pretensions, is equally foolish as it is both destructive (creates strife and false divisions) and foolish (another layer of stupidity to overcome).

We could ALL rid ourselves of false divisions, points on that stupidity curve, on our own - with or without changing lines on maps. It only takes sincerely challenging (Fisking) the tenets you've been indoctrinated with, by parents, family, peers, school, society, and religion. That takes guts, for it's a lonely process.

Societies generate people with the traits they reward. There are exceptions, of course, but in the main, the statement is demonstrably true. People get along if they're rewarded for doing so and honest if that is rewarded. People trust and share and are willing to expend personal treasure, even life, if they find those things rewarded - even if posthumously for their families and society, but most importantly for their fellows on the line.

Your mistrust of the US is noted. What I get most clearly from your comments is that you don't get us. At all. Most people are grinding some ax - and that means there are a shitload of sharp axes around - so being careful makes sense. If I tell you that the US is about freedom, you can take it or leave it, but your choice changes nothing about the truth in that fact. We will protect what good there is in the world and fight for it anytime it's threatened - and promote it at every opportunity. And we will not apologize for it.

And the EU is just more wagons in the circle, as I said, I could ask you to stop being a disingenuous ass, but that would be to ask you to discard your precious identity. I figure it's too late for that.

I'm done. Good luck with the EU thing, honest, and as I said earlier, I hope it works out. We will all be winners if it does - and all share in the fallout if it doesn't.

Posted by .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 3:10:36 PM|| 2003-11-8 3:10:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 If the Iraqi regime is more comfortable w/Muslim Croats (as opposed to the Turk fiasco) fine by me. Put'em in the triangle. I hope things work out.

Posted by Jarhead 2003-11-8 4:00:43 PM|| 2003-11-8 4:00:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 .com> Wow, I really can't decide whether it's wankiness or irrelevancy that dominates your post, but I do know that it's not content or argument.

If you'd actually bothered to reply to me rather than simply masturbate on screen, then you'd have seen fit to answer the one question I asked you -- given how I did answer to *your* question, the one about the EU.

Let me repeat:
****
Do you have a problem with the idea of Bosniak troops in Iraq or don't you?
****

"Your mistrust of the US is noted. What I get most clearly from your comments is that you don't get us. "

Yes, somehow my "mistrust of the US" is noted by you even in those posts of mine that don't contain a single reference to the US. It's just like magic. You can certainly pull off "mistrust of the US" out of anything I write, can't you?

My "mistrust of the US" is no bigger a mistrust than what I have towards *any* other government *anywhere*. Certainly I currently have much more mistrust of the Greek government than I have of the American one.

I wonder if in this post you will "note" a subtext of lesbian bestiality towards antarctic bears or something.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-8 4:19:20 PM|| 2003-11-8 4:19:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I think Aris had a good point that for Iraqis, seeing secularized European Moslems could be beneficial. On the other hand--I don't think we need a base in a country like Bosnia just because it's Moslem.

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-11-8 5:06:35 PM|| 2003-11-8 5:06:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris - LOL! I just skipped to the *finish* rather than following your *tortuous* route. I love it: your EU-nirvana masterbations are legendary - not to mention pure *speculation* since it's still being *born* - and that must be what brought that to mind! There is nothing *new* or *innovative* or *dazzling* about the EU other than the potential I pointed out. It MIGHT reduce the number of *state-sponsored* lies and enmities embedded in your *cultured* and *history-laden* minds and save your children from your current *schizophrenic* world ~~spew~~ view. That would be *good*. You certainly have more than your share of totally fucking *twisted* versions of history in your neck of the woods. Then again, it might not. After all, it will contain the *Balkans*, known world-wide for their *stability* and *tolerance*, right? Yeah, right. No matter.

You're an encyclopedia salesman - I broke the sequence of your patter so now you're flustered. Heh, sorry. You're just pissed cuz I didn't play your game. As for mistrusting the US - that has been a theme in many of your posts -- that it wasn't featured in this one is beside the point. I certainly didn't go out of my way to make it the theme of my post, now did I? So why so exercised? Ah, no matter.

I've had a nice nap and feel great - but you aren't interesting - and now I recall why engaging you is such a treat -- for masochists.

Oh yeah, your *all-important* question regarding *Bosnian* Muslim troops in Iraq? No thanx. The *Iraqis* will provide the Muslim troops. And Muslim police. And Muslim political administration. Etc. There is nothing remarkable about *Bosnian* Muslims that I'm aware of, but them I'm sure *you're* going to *masterbate* something about that, now. You're still the same asshole - even when someone meets you part-way. No matter. I've got more interesting things to do anyway. Thx and have a nice time.

Posted by .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 8:15:48 PM|| 2003-11-8 8:15:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Keep on babbling - it's I who refused to follow your game in speaking about irrelevancies rather than about the issue at hand.

I mentioned the EU in one line, then you sought fit to expand and expand and expand on it. Asking me a question I answered it, not realizing you meant the question as a troll bait. Then when I perceived this game of yours I stopped.

Can we actually get back to discussing points of the article, pretty please?

"Oh yeah, your *all-important* question regarding *Bosnian* Muslim troops in Iraq? No thanx. "

But why?

I gave my own reasoning, aka a) feeling that it's a good idea to include Muslim allies in the War on Terror, to strike at the propaganda that this is a war commited by infidels against the whole of Islam, and b) that the secular democrat Muslims of Bosnia might be a good influence to the less-advanced Arabs.

Why won't you give your own reasoning? You say there's nothing remarkable about Bosnian Muslims -- well there's nothing remarkable about Polish Christians, but nonetheless they are in Iraq.

And btw, not to be nitpicky and all (everyone knows how I hate to be nitpicky ;-) , but "Bosniak" is more accurate to describe the people commonly called "Bosnian Muslims" -- more accurate, since these "Bosnian Muslims" ofcourse include atheists, agnostics and even Christians, like any other nation.

I'm telling you this, since you saw fit to emphasize "Bosnian", perhaps thinking you were correcting a mistake I made.

"You're still the same asshole - even when someone meets you part-way."

Why would you think that I'd be more polite to people that agreed with me than to people who disagreed with me? *That* would be dishonest.

Much more commonly I face politeness with politeness and rudeness with rudeness.

You met me part-way? By doing what, by calling me a "pedant", "unworthy of debate", "stupid", "disingenuous ass", etc, etc? Oh, yeah, that would *definitely* motivate me to be any less of an "asshole" towards you.

"As for mistrusting the US - that has been a theme in many of your posts -- that it wasn't featured in this one is beside the point."

LOL! Yes, if there was a point to your continuing wankery and obsession about me (and the EU) in this thread, then it'd be definitely beside it. I noticed how you saw fit to mention me in other threads as well today. Making your rude commentary there as you did here.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-8 9:44:51 PM|| 2003-11-8 9:44:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Rude. That's me.

Posted by .com (RoPMA) 2003-11-8 10:13:07 PM|| 2003-11-8 10:13:07 PM|| Front Page Top

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