Article

2003-11-04 Europe

French Communists to drop Marx in favor of Trotsky

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Seafarious 2003-11-04 11:30:12 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 My background on communism is very nuanced. What is the specific difference between Trotsky, Lenin and Marx? Feel free to leave out Stalin.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-4 11:58:41 AM|| 2003-11-4 11:58:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 SH, let me take a crack at your question:

Lenin and Marx died natural deaths ?

They had different approaches to the facial grooming issue ?

Am I close to the correct answer ?

Posted by Carl in N.H. 2003-11-4 12:08:32 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:08:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Thank you, Carl. Anything good up for a vote in NH? My precinct had only a referendum on the sshool system wanting more money.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-4 12:34:48 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:34:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 On the face of it, not much. However, the terms "Stalinist" and "Trotskyist" actually have some specific meanings, Trotskyists seem to be the more intellectual (albeit biased and coused), Stalinists more authoritarian, and the Maoists just outright violent and "endless revolution" spewers :P

Posted by Lu Baihu 2003-11-4 12:40:39 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:40:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Trotsky was a left-deviationist, metropolitan wrecker.

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-4 12:44:24 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:44:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 In other news, Kim Jong Il is changing his name to "Luigi"...

Posted by tu3031 2003-11-4 12:45:20 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:45:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 The main difference as I understand it is Trotsky was killed before he could say or do anything really wacked. Less history to rewrite, less known and less discredited. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-4 12:55:04 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:55:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I was under the impression it has someting to do with statuary...

Posted by Seafarious 2003-11-4 12:59:15 PM|| 2003-11-4 12:59:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 In a nutshell, Marx analyzed the functioning and faults of the capitalist system, but was pretty vague about the nature of socialism and the way to get there. Therefore Marx has served as inspiration for everyone from the most brutal totalitarian thugs to sincere believers in democracy. Lenin moved from a focus on class relations WITHIN capitalist society, to a focus on relations BETWEEN societies (IE imperialism) he broke with Social Democrats who wanted to achieve Socialism by electoral success, and reemphasized the notion of revolution, and restored use of the word Communism (which had fallen into disuse in favor of socialism even before Marx's death) He also said that revolution could be achieved by a small, secretive, centrally run party.

Trotsky claimed to be the true air of Lenin (rather than Stalin) and differed (somewhat inconsistently) with Stalin over various issues. Trotskyites tended to be somewhat more intellectually independent in the '30' and '40s then Stalinists, since they didnt have to follow a party line coming out of Moscow. This has given the impression that Trotskyism is somehow more "democratic" than Stalinism, though a close analysis of the records of Lenin and Trotsky before Stalin came to power will show that this is NOT so.

Note that Marxist of all stripes are quite avid players of the "im a real socialist and youre not" game, at least as much as say Islamists.

The notion that Trotsky somehow didnt consider himself a Marxist, or that Trotskyism is not a form of Marxism strikes me as absurd. Theyre dropping the phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" is simply a sign of communist backwardness. Marxist Social Democrats (not all those who consider themselves Social Democrats are Marxists) long ago adopted norms of democratic legality. To them "Dict of Prol" meant an end state when, as Marx forecast, the Proletariat would be 99% of society (a good social forecaster Marx was NOT) so it effectively WOULD be democracy. The Leninists never bought this interpretation, and are now stuck with an embarrassing doctrine - so they are forced to be LESS Marxist than the Social Democrats. (see how this resembles Islamism?)

All in all - this a result of the changing classs structure of society, which has gone in a VERY different direction from the way Marx forecast, thrusting the left into confusion. Many social democrats have attempted to adjust by moving to the center and becoming a "3rd way". The eurocoms have tried to replace the Socialists as the Left, but also are trying to keep their ideological heritage, and their base of Extremists. Which leads them into somersaults like the above.

My judgement on Marx - a good social analyst, and decent(though flawed) historian. A flawed economist, and ultimately a failed social forecaster. And an absolute zero as a developer of a real political option.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-4 1:43:30 PM|| 2003-11-4 1:43:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 BTW, at least one faction of Trotskyites went further than others,and claimed the USSR under Stalin was a betrayal of Socialism, and advocated making common cause with the US against the USSR. These became some of the most bitter anti-Stalinists in the Socialist camp. Some members of this group, souring on socialism, remained bitter anticommunists, and fairly quickly moved through social democracy and Hawkish liberalism :) all the way to Reaganism. They retained, however, very sharp intellects, an awareness of class issues in politics, a generally secular outlook (tempered by a pragmatic view of religion as a force for order and against totalitarianism) a delight in factional politics, and tendency to see the big, intellectual picture. Perhaps to the point where they overlook practical obstacles. These people (and some people who were never Trotskyites) are today lovingly called neo-conservatives. The key figure, who actually was a Trotskyite and made the full transition to Reaganite, is Irving Krystol. His son William was an aide to Dan Quayle, and is today editor of The Weekly Standard. They are bitterly hated by most leftists, and by Buchananite "paleocons" and of course by Islamists and Jew-haters around the world. They tend to win some sympathy from liberal hawks to their left, and from National Review type conservatives to their right.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-4 1:57:48 PM|| 2003-11-4 1:57:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Nothing interesting that I noticed SH, certainly not in my little town. Still early, though, I am sure there will be a news item later this week about some odd local issue.

Posted by Carl in N.H. 2003-11-4 2:02:03 PM|| 2003-11-4 2:02:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Didn't Trotsky write a piece praising the virtues of terrorism?

Posted by Robert Crawford 2003-11-4 2:04:14 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2003-11-4 2:04:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 NOT funny, tu3031!

Posted by Luigi the Lurker 2003-11-4 2:07:17 PM|| 2003-11-4 2:07:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Trotsky was an -internationalist- Marxist, as opposed to Stalin's "revolution in one country." Leon's only beef with Stalin's killin' was that he wuz a killin' the wrong chillun'.(i.e. his former allies the Old Bolshies, in the Terror trials) Trotsky didn't really give a hang about the Ukranians or "kulaks," he wanted a world-wide revolutionary blood-bath, including killing all leftists who disagreed with him. To prove his seriousness on this point, he was the chief architect of the Kronstadt massacre where 15,000 anarchist sailors of the Russian Baltic Fleet were gunned down for demanding real leftist democracy.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-11-4 2:57:22 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-11-4 2:57:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Someone here knows nothing about French politics: LCR has ever been Trotskist and thus strongly opposed to the Parti Communiste (PC) who was Pro-Soviet.

For the difference between Trotskists and regular Communists, it is quite simple: Communists can be realist (at least for a time) and avoid shooting priests and officers when they have a war in their hands, allow some private enterprise when econmy is going down and so on. Trostskist find them too soft, denounce Communist's accommodations with reality and ever ask more than them: more salary rises, more nationalizations, more shootings.

Communists have ever beaten them and I tend to think that avoiding Trostki rising to power has been one of two good things Stalin did in his life (the other one being defeating Hitler).

Posted by JFM 2003-11-4 3:01:25 PM|| 2003-11-4 3:01:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 www.fuckfrance.com

Posted by Greg 2003-11-4 3:07:03 PM|| 2003-11-4 3:07:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "The delegate appeared visibly relieved after dropping what appeared to be a large, steaming load of Stalinist reference."

Posted by BH 2003-11-4 3:42:39 PM|| 2003-11-4 3:42:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Trotsky was also the first Foreign and War Minister of the fledgling Bolshevik government. He spent a lot of time from 1918 to 1924 or so building the Red Army before being exiled by Stalin.

Posted by Steve White 2003-11-4 3:52:25 PM|| 2003-11-4 3:52:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Christopher Hitchens once considered himself a Trotskyist, which seems to fit with Liberalhawks definition more than anything else.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-4 3:59:56 PM|| 2003-11-4 3:59:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Trotsky collected ice axes.

Posted by mojo 2003-11-4 5:19:16 PM|| 2003-11-4 5:19:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Thanx to all who participated in the thread and especially Liberalhawk. I took a year of Russian and a semester of Russian history in college - many moons ago - this thread covered about a week of classwork. The only guy I vaguely remeber that wasn't hit was N Buhkarin - who was supposed to be closer to what today is a social democrat. I beleive Lenin had him executed - in a more traditional way than icepick bludgeoning.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-11-4 7:42:17 PM|| 2003-11-4 7:42:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I took a year of Russian and a semester of Russian history in college -

It's changed since then.
Matter of fact it's changed since just now. :)

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-4 8:13:51 PM|| 2003-11-4 8:13:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 For me it's really quite simple: Trotsky wanted to let everybody keep their firearms, Lenin ordered them all taken away. That makes Trotsky the best of a bad lot, hands down.

To bad he didn't have his gat with him one dark night in Mexico City....

Posted by Secret Master 2003-11-4 8:28:25 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2003-11-4 8:28:25 PM|| Front Page Top

00:43 Old Patriot
00:18 NotMikeMoore
00:14 Julius
00:05 Julius
23:57 Ralph
23:46 mojo
23:28 Julius
23:15 NotMikeMoore
23:15 Yank
23:14 Grunter
23:11 NotMikeMoore
23:00 Aris Katsaris
22:53 chriskarma
22:30 Alaska Paul
22:25 Stephen
22:18 Alaska Paul
22:09 Frank G
22:07 Alaska Paul
22:06 Frank G
22:03 Frank G
22:03 Cyber Sarge
21:59 eLarson
21:52 eLarson
21:48 someone