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2003-09-10 Home Front

Pro-American Citizenâs Group Criticizes Bushâs War as Feeble, Morally Compromised

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Posted by Foster 2003-09-10 3:38:14 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Gee, why were they so generous, must be government employees. Why aren't airline pilots armed? Why are our borders still open? Why does Saudi Arabia still exist? How come Colin Powell is sec of state? Why don't we get a really tough, no nonsense, take no prisoners type, like Janet Reno? She'll fry women and children to get her way!

Posted by TJ Jackson 2003-9-10 4:07:24 AM|| 2003-9-10 4:07:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Israel and the Palestinians: The American "road map" for peace has forced Israel to negotiate with Palestinian terrorists, requiring Israel to abdicate its right to self-defense. This policy is self-defeating for America, since Israel is a natural ally in the war against militant Islam.
Grade: F

Actually, I agree with this. However, what these idiots fail to realize is that not everyone is free of 'playing by the book'.

These people critisize Bush, but I don't see them out there fighting, or trying to help Isreal kill Hamas. We can't fight the entire planet at once ( despite popular belief ). So we have to APPEASE people sometimes.

It's just as stomach-churning for the Administration as it is for us, but these things take time. We can't take down the Paleo resistance and all the 'Axis of Evil' members in just two years! It took us, Britain, Canada, Australia, India, and others more than 5 years too take out just three countries. Give him another at least that long.

Why at least 5 years? Because the UN and Humanitarian groups for terrorists didn't exist back then.

Posted by Charles 2003-9-10 4:14:33 AM|| 2003-9-10 4:14:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Nice perspective! Cut through all the B.S. and tells it like it is. Of course this is way to Right-Wing to be a viable policy. We canât just attack NK and Iran at this time. Maybe after we finish up in Iraq we can/should address these problems. But then again we may not have to since Kimmie and the Mullahs are taking notice of what we have done in Iraq. A âCâ grade is a pretty good mark from this group. Where do I join?

Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2003-9-10 11:12:45 AM|| 2003-9-10 11:12:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Dudes! So many places so few soldiers.

Posted by Hiryu 2003-9-10 11:18:20 AM|| 2003-9-10 11:18:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 The grade isn't very relaistic. What grade would Clinton get for handling the dead sailors of the Cole? I would assign that as an F and maybe put the FDR response to Japanese attack as an A.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-10 11:40:30 AM|| 2003-9-10 11:40:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 These people critisize Bush, but I don't see them out there fighting, or trying to help Isreal kill Hamas. We can't fight the entire planet at once ( despite popular belief ). So we have to APPEASE people sometimes.

Appease terrorists? Seems to me that their kind would be the last ones that you'd want to appease.

It's just as stomach-churning for the Administration as it is for us, but these things take time. We can't take down the Paleo resistance and all the 'Axis of Evil' members in just two years!

The obvious solution is to let the IDF perform the task of cleaning out the West Bank and Gaza of Palestiniant terrorists, instead of pressuring Israel to exercise restraint. They are more than capable of doing it.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-10 12:53:31 PM|| 2003-9-10 12:53:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 It's always easy to sit back and throw stones when your action doesn't put your own neck at risk. I wonder how many of the members of this "organization" are also members of the military. I'd bet darned few!

I find Bush a constant surprise. First he does something so incredibily right it's refreshing, then he does something so incredibly stupid it'd disgusting. I do hope there are some major shakeups in his cabinet after the next election, and there are enough bodies in Congress to back him up, rather than weasels in Democratic clothing that have only one policy - block anything not the policy of the Democratic Party.

I'd give this group's report card a "D-", and it's prestentation an "F". Arguably, Bush knows things they cannot, but there's more than enough information available to make a more detailed analysis than this. These bubbleheads are all Pat Buchanan righties. Buchanan has proven to me that he's nothing but a self-styled ass.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-10 2:22:12 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-10 2:22:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Constructive criticism is one thing. Unrealistic stupid criticism helps Dean become president. I doubt that the interests groups that prepared the report are smarter than that.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-10 2:51:49 PM|| 2003-9-10 2:51:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "Or North Korea, where the leader's a nutbag but the subject matter's got nothing to do with the overall objective â defeating the Islamists who've declared war on us"

I think that the Iraq had about as little to do with the "overall objective" as Korea would have been. It had a secular (though tyrannical) government which itself hated the Islamists quite a bit. What the overthrow of Saddam did was not make a victory for the actual "overall war" but simply create a new battlefield where democracy and islamofascism will fight. *If* Iraq transforms into a secular democracy in 10 years time, *then* it'll be a victory for US and allies and the civilised world in general.

But it won't actually be much of a loss for the Islamofascists, since they never *had* Iraq on the first place. Poll shows 33% percent of Iraqis want an Islamist government? Ouch. What if *they* end up in charge? US will have done nothing but use its troops in the service of islamists.

Instead of declaring a "war on terrorism" (something which seems ridiculous to me as terrorism is not an ideology by itself, but rather a methodology) I think I'd have appreciated it much more if Bush had declared a war on islamofascism instead. Same way as western democracies earlier fought against nazism, and had a cold war against communism. All ideologies.

Being an islamofascist government could be casus belli enough, which seems to me atleast as a valid one as the never-can-find-them WMDs has been. Instead of portraying 9/11 as showing to the world that *terrorists* are a danger for everyone and must be fought before they reach the American shores, it could be said that these attacks proved that *islamofascism* is a global danger, which must be fought, etc, etc.

Again the same assurances could be given that this isn't directed against the peaceful Muslim nations, only those who use the precepts of their religion to impose tyranny on their populations and/or make war on other nations, etc.

Iraq didn't use the WMDs it had, even when US itself was attacking. Even in the Gulf War when we knew it had them, regardless of whether it still had them during the recent war or not. I don't see much reason why an attack on *Iran* would have motivated them to use them on US troops instead.

An attack on Iran might have been riskier and more difficult, but the overthrow of the model Islamist government (besides Afghanistan) would seem to me a much stronger blow than the war on Iraq has been on islamofascism so far.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-10 6:29:05 PM|| 2003-9-10 6:29:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris, the answer to your comment is simple: any nation that actively pursues WMD (specifically nukes), and has made threats against the US or its friends, is on the shit-list. Why Iraq and not NK, for example? Because the mission in Iraq was relatively easy. Iran & NK are much harder nuts to crack.
I'm happy for you that you don't perceive WMD to be a threat to your country. But many Americans (those with their head out of the sand) rightly believe that WMD in the hands of terrorists or lunatics or Coca-Cola haters, are a threat to them. And I'm glad that Bush doesn't wish to find out if OBL has the will to use them. And yes, Saddam was a secularist (though he has recently converted), but that wouldn't stop AQ & Iraq from having a marriage of conveniance. The risk of that happening was too great.

Posted by Rafael 2003-9-10 7:08:24 PM|| 2003-9-10 7:08:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Aris,

Any of these countries is a tough nut to crack. In many ways NK will be the toughest because it has hostages and has been allowed by the international community to progress form programs to actual possession of nukes.

50 years ago the international community made a committment to the South Korean people to protect their country from sunjigation by the North. We wrote that committment in the blood of Americans, Greeks, Turks and the blood of men from countries throughout the free world. In the last ten years we have betrayed that committment to freedom in the interest of a sunshine policy.

This sunshine policy is not a failed policy just in North Korea. It is a policy that is in the process without the likelihood of a positive result in Iran, Sudan, the PLA, Cuba, Syria, Liberia and many other places in the world.

The French initiative to lift sanctions on Iraq was just another chapter of the sunshine policy that almost drove the school bus into the ditch. Without sanctions Iraq would have necessarily resumed development of nuclear weapons if for no other reason than that Iran is currently developing nukes.

From the perspective of the US, WMD are only dangerous if they are handed/sold to terrorists.
I think we all agree Iran, Iraq and Syria are certainly capable of providing WMD to Hizbollah, Hamas or IJ. From the Greek perspective, I would think that poliferation of nukes to your Arab neighbors would be a real concern. I doubt that Turkey plans on being the only conventional-only power in the highly volatile neighborhood.

I don't bring this up to incite Murat or you. I bring up this point to emphasize that the WMD crisis will be in your neighborhood first. proliferating long range missiles and plutonium throughout the region is a big mistake no matter how much we all want to get along with Iran and Syria.

In some ways mature Americans feel that we have let the Korean people down through lack of vigilence. It baffles us that the international community doesn't feel any responsibility for Korean crisis or for preventing Iraq or Iran from becoming a simular situation.

A couple of years ago a teracher died that I knew. He was a coworker of my fahter's. With his obituary I saw a picture of him as a young man with a crewcut wearing a green uniform with a rack of medals. Evidently, he was an ace in the USMC during WWII. My dad may have mentioned it but, for me, he was the guy that let us cut a cheap Xmas tree from the farm he called Little Vermont every year.

In my opinion, the sunshine generation has squandered his legacy and the legacy of his whole generation. Not just Americans but also the brave men of Crete who stopped the Nazi advance for many long months.

Its sad.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-10 9:12:08 PM|| 2003-9-10 9:12:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 When we were first attacked, two years ago to the day less one, Americans didn't know anything about Islamofascism. Even in the intelligence community, I don't think we had built the order of battle that's come to be apparent at its lower levels, still hazy at its upper levels. It was a many-headed hydra, not the collection of sometimes competing, sometime cooperating multi-nationals we see now. Ten or twelve years ago we had three main strains - Libya-Sudan, Syria-Lebanon-Palestine, and Iran. AQ was actually a minor player.

Our enemy today is Islamofascism - the gift to the world of the Wahhabi sect, and a relatively recent growth industry. But our enemy is also the mindset and the organizational principles that it's absorbed. We don't cover the IRA a lot in these pages, or November 17, or the Colombian killers, but the tactics and the disregard for human life, even contempt for human life, are traits they hold in common with the AQ killers. They're also traits they share with Saddam - witness the mass graves - and with North Korea, where everybody's an egg to go into the omelette. Beyond the bounds of religion and ideology, you can also throw in Zimbabwe, Liberia, and for that matter the majority of the states in sub-Saharan Africa. The disease we're fighting is the subjugation of individual liberty, regardless of the proclaimed justification. If you're dead, what do you care that you were helped from this vale of tears by a Baathist or a North Korean communist or an Iranian Revolutionary Guard or by Subcommandante Pedro and his gang of drug running leftists?

I, and most of us here, can see why Bush is doing what he's doing. We don't always agree with the methods employed. Sometimes I think he should be more ruthless, occasionally I think he should rely more on diplomacy. My personal bitch is that he should be reminding the world continuously that we're trying to protect individual liberty, to remove the totalitarian yoke from the neck of the common man, whether it's that of Wahhabi Islam, Baathism, Communism, or the worship of the Divine Elvis.

Individual liberty isn't an exclusively American ideal. In fact, I think the idea originated in Greece...

Posted by Fred 2003-9-10 9:40:53 PM|| 2003-9-10 9:40:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 In fact, I think the idea originated in Greece...
Read the Ten Commandments, not as a Biblical ordination from God, but as a set of rules to live by. If you think about it even just a little bit, you'll see where our Founding Fathers discovered the "unalienable rights" we all enjoy (when they're not being trampled underfoot by a dictatorial government or shoved into the broom closet by some athiest with his nickers in a twist).

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-9-10 10:55:37 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-9-10 10:55:37 PM|| Front Page Top

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