Article

2003-06-13 Middle East

This Road Map May Be The ONLY Viable Alternative.

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Posted by ColoradoConservative 2003-06-13 01:15 pm|| || Front Page|| [9 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 On the other hand ... from http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/

"Three cheers for John McCain, who in an interview yesterday with MSNBC's Chris Matthews put the matter plainly:"

If anyone came to my hometown in Phoenix, Ariz., and set off a bomb on a bus and killed 18 people and injured 100 of them, my citizens would expect us to respond. . . . Do you want to call that a cycle of violence? You can call it what you want, but these acts of terror, these organizations, funded by the Saudis, at least encouraged by Yasser Arafat, are inexcusable in their tactics--and their results are horrendous."

Indeed. The only way to stop the "cycle of violence" is to kill or incapacitate the instigators. If Abbas cannot or will not do so, how can anyone fault Israel for acting in its own defense?"

Same ends as McIntyre's, but different means.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-06-13 13:31:35|| 2003-06-13 13:31:35|| Front Page Top

#2 And why would the French, Russians, Germans et al. want to risk their lives to protect Jews? Their governments cannot even bring themselves to call the indiscriminate mass murder of Israelis terrorism. The international soldiers would have the choice of standing aside or becoming targets for the likes of Hamas and Islamic Jihad themselves. The practical effect would be to provide a shield to any Israeli military response while doing little to discourage terrorism.

Remember Srebernica. The UN made security promises it lacked the will or capacity to enforce. The UN also had a "peacekeeping" force in the Sinai in 1967. They left as soon as the Egyptians told them to go. The track record of international security forces (without a heavy US presence)is not encouraging; they are rather, like Abba Eban said, like firemen who run away at the smell of smoke.

Posted by GKarp 2003-06-13 14:46:06|| 2003-06-13 14:46:06|| Front Page Top

#3 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

The Israelis and the Palestinians have to, in the end, solve this one themselves. They are the ones who will have to live together or die together. No outside force can make them live together, see Yugoslavia, and most of Africa for examples.

Terrorism has never, ever won a cause. It has always failed. Some bright Palestinian is going to come to understand this, and tacitly allow or encourage the Israelis to make a few more martyrs to the cause. When the terrorists are dead and buried, he can then proclaim peace and a national state, lauding them for their sacrifices.

Is Abbas that guy? Don't know. Arafat is not.

No one controls all the groups. I believe the elimination of Hamas and Arafat's pet goons will be the solution. Hezb is ineffectual in Israel, and will become even more isolated when its buddies are wacked. Kill the terrorist leaders, cut off their money, and let a Palestinian leader proclaim victory.

Posted by Chuck (not Taylor) 2003-06-13 15:09:31|| [blog.simmins.org] 2003-06-13 15:09:31|| Front Page Top

#4 The EU and UN using force? Like they are in Bunia? Loudspaekers vs Kalashnikovs...

Or Afghanistan: before the recent [partial] capitulation, when there was a real chance of northern civil war, the UN said it was there only to protect the government in Kabul - not to interfere in internal affairs. Huh?

Posted by John Anderson 2003-06-13 15:25:40|| 2003-06-13 15:25:40|| Front Page Top

#5 I disagree.

The best way Sharon can support Abbas is to crush Abbas's rival power centers - Hamas, Hezbollah... Arafat.

And Sharon's far better qualified to do it than some "cobbled-together" group of outsiders.

Posted by Glenn 2003-06-13 15:53:03|| 2003-06-13 15:53:03|| Front Page Top

#6 GKarp: I agree with you that having international UN type troops hunting HAMAS, IsJihad, etc. is impossible. Egypt and Jordan acting together could however to so.

If the UN wanted to do some good - a big if -- they could dispatch several hundred people to ride around in Israeli buses and eat at Israeli restaurants. Taking bus rides and eating is about all the UN really is capable of anyway.

Posted by mhw 2003-06-13 16:16:01|| 2003-06-13 16:16:01|| Front Page Top

#7 Three state solution or divide and conquer:

(1) Build a huge wall around Gaza, withdraw all settlements in Gaza, and allow no transit between Isreal and Gaza. Let them fester and hate and grow poorer. (2) Sweep into West Bank and kill or round up known terrorists and thugs. Deport them to Gaza. (3) Set up an East Palistine Government in West Bank with the intent of self-rule along a specific timeline. This government should be a liberal democracy even if we have to import Germans or French to help them. Clean up the media and remove the thugocracy so the West Bank Pals have a chance. Allow economic contact between West Bank and Isreal but keep the wall Israel is building and control over border points all around to prevent infiltration. Allow Right of Return into select West Bank towns, if Pals won't accept it the term can be inversed against them.

It won't be long before the success of those living in the West Bank starts to sink into those living in Gaza. Control of the media in East Palistine can have a very powerful affect as well.

Posted by Yank 2003-06-13 17:14:26|| 2003-06-13 17:14:26|| Front Page Top

#8 Longer term.... If a free Iraq does what other Arab states should have done 50 years ago-- namely, allow Palestinian Arabs to immigrate, integrate into society and lead normal lives-- won't that tend to dissolve the "Palestinian problem"?

Posted by TPF 2003-06-13 20:13:26|| 2003-06-13 20:13:26|| Front Page Top

#9 Yank: I admit that my preferred solution would be more drastic; it being the one referred to as "Removal" in the Israeli political lexicon. However, I can see some logic to what you suggest, with one glaring exception. "This government should be a liberal democracy even if we have to import Germans or French to help them." I grant that the French and Germans have gotten the art of taking liberalism to the Socialist extreme, but they don't seem to have the concept of Democracy down yet. The greatest political initiative the two countries are attempting is the European Union. In all the 337 pages of the EU constitution [counting preamble] I don't see any power at all in the only elected branch, the European Parliament. It cannot originate law, pass law, repeal law, or reject anything the unelected European Commission or the European President wants. All in all, it sounds like the kind of government set up that Arafat or Osama bin Laden would love. If we must send them missionaries for liberty, send in a few brigades of Libertarians instead.

Posted by Subotai Bahadur 2003-06-13 20:28:28|| 2003-06-13 20:28:28|| Front Page Top

#10 It is rather amazing how Americans blame Europe for being "undemocratic" because European nations don't give up their sovereignty fast enough. A sovereignty that is so dear to America.
If the European Parliament had the powers Subotai is claiming, it would basically abridge the powers of the national parliaments. It would mean that smaller nations would basically be overwhelmed by the French and German "masses". This is what makes the creation of Europe so difficult. This is why we have to go in small steps, slowly building up the trust it takes to achieve a true union which may still be half a century away. We will get there, I believe.
After 225 years the different US states still insist on their "sovereignty" when it comes to elect the president. Thats why the American people still can't elect their president by "popular majority". We know that small things make big impacts sometimes.
And you are blaming Europe not to be fast enough when after 225 years the 50 US states still elect their president by electors and not direct votes?
I rather see Europe succeed in small steps than fail in big ones.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-13 22:35:02|| 2003-06-13 22:35:02|| Front Page Top

#11 TGA: Sorry I did not not check back again for a reply last night, I got busy. "If the European Parliament had the powers Subotai is claiming, it would basically abridge the powers of the national parliaments." In fact, the same EU Constitution already takes away the national sovereignty. Without creating a post so long as to overwhelm the site, I cannot quote the relevant passages, but basically anything the unelected EU Commission arrogates unto itself, preempts national parliaments totally. The EU Commission has claimed jurisdiction over literally everything, foreign and domestic. Therefore, the member states have already yielded sovereignty in toto. The end of national sovereignty is a [pardon the French] a fait accompli, as is the abolition of any input by citizens into the government. That is why I say that Arafat and Osama would love the type of system the Germans and the French would impose. Given the lack of enthusiasm the French have for stopping the murder of civilians [Ivory Coast, Congo] Hamas would feel right at home with it too. Europeans have already yielded sovereignty and are doing their best to abandon any pretense of democratic control over the institutions that have power over them. Those of an historical bent will remember the three Reich's ; the Holy Roman Empire, Wilhelmine Germany, and the National Socialist regime. To an outside observer, the EU seems bent on becoming a combination of the three. None of the three featured peace, individual liberty, or democratic control of the government.

Posted by Subotai Bahadur 2003-06-14 13:02:02|| 2003-06-14 13:02:02|| Front Page Top

13:02 Subotai Bahadur
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08:31 raptor
01:33 Becky
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23:47 Fred
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22:39 True German Ally
22:35 True German Ally
22:33 Old Patriot
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21:41 True German Ally
21:38 Aris Katsaris
21:26 RW
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