Article

2003-04-23 Europe

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Posted by Celissa 2003-04-23 02:08 pm|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Moreover, they are members of a religion with a strong aggressive, proselytizing, and imperialistic streakâa religion that ultimately recognizes nothing but itself, not even the secular state, as a source of authority. "

IE its ok for sikhs to wear turbans and jews to weap kippot, but not for muslims to wear muslim headdress cause - well - theyre muslims. And islam aint really a religion, but a political viewpoint. And those guys who call themselves muslims and claim to disagree with that political viewpoint are either lying, or are not really muslims.

I didnt take this one on in LGF - but here we're on saner ground. If anyone rapes of forces someone into marriage they should be punished for that - period. Which is indeed the law in the United States of America, where I live.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-23 14:22:13|| 2003-04-23 14:22:13|| Front Page Top

#2 He hoped that moderates would control the new group, but instead it has given extremists a platform from which to voice their demands.

Moderate Muslims...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Posted by tu3031 2003-04-23 14:22:37|| 2003-04-23 14:22:37|| Front Page Top

#3 IE its ok for sikhs to wear turbans and jews to weap kippot, but not for muslims to wear muslim headdress cause - well - theyre muslims.

I think what he's talking about is the refusal of Muslims to alter their "beliefs" to assimilate and adhere to French law. France is going to end up in "Human Rights Court" because Islamic women want to wear veils for their ID cards. That's ridiculous.
Viewpoints on Islam vary. You are free to hold yours. I base my views on the Qur'an, the translated sermons I've read and continue to read, and the actions of Muslims around the globe. Fundamentalism is true Islam. Refusal to believe that doesn't make it any less true.

Posted by Celissa 2003-04-23 14:39:53|| [www.celissasblog.com/weblog.php] 2003-04-23 14:39:53|| Front Page Top

#4 if scarves must be removed for security/ID purposes thats one thing. The paragraph i quoted makes no mention of id's or security concerns - again

" No one felt, or feels, intimidated or threatened in the slightest by this concession to a religious custom.

The same cannot be said of the appearance on our streets of Muslim women so completely covered that even their eyes are hardly visible through the slit in their headdress. The reason for the difference in reaction rests not on abstract principle but on concrete social context."

the social context he then describes is not a reference to ID or security issues, but the content of Islam (as he understands it)

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-23 14:46:57|| 2003-04-23 14:46:57|| Front Page Top

#5 "Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin announced his intention of prohibiting by law the wearing of the headscarf in the exercise of any public function. He did so in name of the difference between the public and the private sphere, and of the secularism of the state. "

IE not just about ID's but at any public function. And not in the name of security, but in the name of the secularism of the state. And there are some people who get bent out of shape at liberals for not wanting creches placed on public property - but think that defending the secular character of the state requires telling individuals how to dress.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-23 14:50:26|| 2003-04-23 14:50:26|| Front Page Top

#6 celissa - have you noted - in France the muslims live in ghettos, rampage in anti-semitic demos, and are a problem for French foreign policy. While here in the good old USA our muslims are more integrated, are mainly loyal, and are not the kind of issue they are in France? Granted their numbers are fewer and their origins different, but do you think our American approach to pluralism and positive assimilation just might have something to with it? Maybe the French arent the model for absorbing immigrants?

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-23 14:54:17|| 2003-04-23 14:54:17|| Front Page Top

#7 Liberalhawk what are you talking about? The issue that Sarkozy specifically brought up WAS the headscarves. The article itself is directed at what happens when when there is a cultural tradition conflict with that of a society's rules and regulations.

The fundamentalists booed Sarkozy, though a smattering of the women in the audience applauded when he remarked that the law required that photographs for the compulsory identity card should be taken bareheaded: that is to say, without a headscarf

In the case of the ID card, well its kinda moot to have an ID card if theres no way to identify the person via the card isnt it? (Namely the headscarves involved are meant to cover up the entire face except the eyes)

Posted by Valentine 2003-04-23 15:10:53|| 2003-04-23 15:10:53|| Front Page Top

#8 val - very simple - you remove the headscarf when you check ID (for example at airport checkin, or checkin to a govt building or public event then they can put the headscarf back on. The law Raffarin proposed would have banned all wearing of headscarves at all public events - and not for security, but for secularism.

I mean its one thing to make a boy take off his kippa to check for headlice - another thing to ban it at all public events.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-23 15:24:17|| 2003-04-23 15:24:17|| Front Page Top

#9 "But, in a spirit completely contrary to the Conseil dâEtatâs ruling, Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin announced his intention of prohibiting by law the wearing of the headscarf in the exercise of any public function. He did so in name of the difference between the public and the private sphere, and of the secularism of the state."

France has big issues with its Muslim population, mostly because it has put the Muslims in enclaves which are now thoroughly out of its control, which isn't good for the people living in those enclaves or for the French as a whole. That's what leads to the gang rapes and other issues. Headscarves have nothing to do with that, and banning them isn't going to fix it. If headscarves are banned in public places, the gangs will still rape the women who aren't wearing them. I agree with liberalhawk. You take off the scarf when it is necessary for identification purposes, but otherwise the state has no business being concerned with it. They should concentrate on securing the safety of the residents of their ghettos rather than dictating fashion.

Posted by Kathy 2003-04-23 15:43:33|| 2003-04-23 15:43:33|| Front Page Top

#10 Meanwhile, in Turkey...

Posted by Pink & Fluffy 2003-04-23 16:50:14|| 2003-04-23 16:50:14|| Front Page Top

#11 I look at it as an act similar to banning gang colors and insignia.

Posted by someone 2003-04-23 16:57:35|| 2003-04-23 16:57:35|| Front Page Top

#12 It is high time for the Western Democracies to declare that that it is a cultural imperative to achieve energy indepence. And then we may have to resort to Cultural Apparthied. As coldly brutal as that sounds it does not mean death camps or any of the racist policies of the former RAS. Quite simply the Isalmic World for the Muslims, The Subcontinent for the Hindus, East Asia for the Buhdists, Taoists and Sinto. Europe, North America and South America for the cultures that dominate them now. Sub-Saharan Africa is a tougher call due to influences of both European and Islamic colonizers over the centuries. But I doubt that such a world would ever come to be due to the fact that Islam feels it is destined to be the World on day. And a rather poor screwed up world too. I may be ignorant of them but what major accomplishments has the Islamic world brought to the planet in the last 500 years

Posted by Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire 2003-04-23 17:11:36|| 2003-04-23 17:11:36|| Front Page Top

#13 The Scarves vs. the ID Card Issue is the first of many confrontations in France. The Mullah's et.al will milk this one for all it is worth. The French will eventually cave in because the M's will push it for all its worth and, well, is the govt going to use riot police to enforce this one? Then another issue will come up, etc. etc. This is just the beginning of, well, basically jihad or the gradual takeover of France by Islam.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-04-23 21:26:59|| 2003-04-23 21:26:59|| Front Page Top

#14 Ok,Celissia.
But where do you stand?
Should it be the woman's choice?
Or should it be forced(under threat of violence or otherwise)by a women's husband and Sharia?
And Womens Rights in general?

Posted by raptor 2003-04-24 07:24:28|| 2003-04-24 07:24:28|| Front Page Top

11:52 becky
09:03 raptor
08:37 raptor
07:24 raptor
06:59 raptor
23:49 Pink & Fluffy
23:32 Bomb-a-rama
23:29 Bomb-a-rama
23:23 Bomb-a-rama
23:06 11A5S
23:05 Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire
22:58 11A5S
22:43 Mark IV
22:32 Nero
22:30 Someone who did NOT vote for William Proxmire
22:22 Raj
22:20 Raj
22:14 Nero
22:04 Brian
22:03 Fred
21:30 anon1
21:26 Alaska Paul
21:22 anon1
20:58 Raj