Article

2003-04-10 Europe

Germany "wonât help" in Iraq except through the UN

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Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 12:38 pm|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Fred,
I'm torn between leaving this under "Terror" or putting it under "Europe". The longer the diatribe goes on from France and Germany, the more I see them as terrorist states. Certainly the United Nations falls into that category already.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 12:51:41|| 2003-04-10 12:51:41|| Front Page Top

#2 Or what? They'll sit back and watch everything go just fine without them. Oh the pressure from these Eurocrats is unbearable.

Posted by g wiz 2003-04-10 12:52:41|| 2003-04-10 12:52:41|| Front Page Top

#3 3 weeks late...
And billions short...

Posted by sonic 2003-04-10 12:56:20|| [sonicpuke.blogspot.com/] 2003-04-10 12:56:20|| Front Page Top

#4 Ah, they're just pissed because we're wiping out the bunker market.

Posted by FormerLiberal 2003-04-10 12:57:50|| 2003-04-10 12:57:50|| Front Page Top

#5 They just won't quit, will they?

Posted by RW 2003-04-10 13:38:19|| 2003-04-10 13:38:19|| Front Page Top

#6 its time for the Germans to shut the **** up and start dealing with thier own problems. like maybe EU economic rules that the Germans follow (the Germans will follow any rule as long as it's law) and the French totally ignore? Makes me think how long the Germans can stand being in bed with Saddams Whores. especially with their ecomony not doing so good...I SAY THE FRENCH CAN EAT SOURKRAUT!!!

Posted by Dan 2003-04-10 14:27:01|| 2003-04-10 14:27:01|| Front Page Top

#7 Old Patriot, that remark is really below anything I'd have expected from you. I refuse to go into it. Please see a doctor.
Right now they run a big tv gala here in Germany to collect millions of euros of aid coming to help Iraq. But the Americans distributing German money in Iraq? I think not.
Right now major German religious help organisations are not allowed to provide humanitarian aid to Iraq because they refuse USAID to decide where the aid has to go. No, it doesn't work that way and never has: The one who gives decides where the aid goes, not an American organisation. And we are not breaking our constitution just to make you look better in Iraq.
And Dan, a comment for your qualified remark: Sauerkraut (choucroute) is a favourite dish of Alsace, hence French.
I appreciate the info this site provides but some comments (actually quite a lot) are so low level that I really start to worry about the damage the Bush administration has done to the United states in just two years. The Americans I know are different, obviously. And I know quite a few.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 15:21:10|| 2003-04-10 15:21:10|| Front Page Top

#8 I think the damage was done by the German government's refusal to work with their ally. It has nothing to do with Bush. He could have never created the amount of dislike for Europe that they have done to themselves. Some of it is immature but these are tense times and people are just letting off steam.

Posted by g wiz 2003-04-10 15:29:48|| 2003-04-10 15:29:48|| Front Page Top

#9 True German --

I read (and can find the link, if you'd like) that Iraq has refused ALL Arab countries. They prefer only a condemnation of American bombing. It wouldn't surprise me if Iraq has also refused aid from Germany and everywhere else. It suits propaganda purposes when you can say the hospitals are out of medicine and supplies. But that's happening only because those supplies are still sitting in Jordan.

And I seriously doubtthat the one who gives decides where the aid goes. In many, if not most, cases there is one group set up to handle the bulk of distribution. Are you saying the German constitution doesn't allow this?

Also, American soldiers have given out American dollars in some places, and also dinars that they've come across.

It's very nice that a telthon is being held to raise EUs for Iraq. But that reflects the German people who are giving, not the German government that is playing the same games they played before this war.

Posted by growler 2003-04-10 15:30:20|| 2003-04-10 15:30:20|| Front Page Top

#10 Nothing like a European to stab you in the back and then say, "Ah, but we're friends, non??"
TGA, disappointment runs deep in these here parts. Schroeder should've thought about it a little longer.
Still, I like Germans and hope this thing will blow over soon. As for Chiraq and his cronies... no comment.

Posted by RW 2003-04-10 15:31:55|| 2003-04-10 15:31:55|| Front Page Top

#11 Btw the tv show today raised 5.5 million Euro (about 6 million US$) for Iraq in just 4 hours. And money is still pouring in.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 17:44:24|| 2003-04-10 17:44:24|| Front Page Top

#12 ChIraq and Schredder will not get Iraq to hand over to the UN. Can you imagine the mess?

"Oh, come now.Somebody's got to clean the toilets." ROTFLOL!

Posted by KP 2003-04-10 16:17:19|| 2003-04-10 16:17:19|| Front Page Top

#13 TGA - if Germany wants to givve aid thats not under control USAID thats reasonable - Germans should be able to go into Iraq and give as they see fit, subject to the security situation. The problem is that Schroeder says that Germany will only give after a UN res. Which would be OK except that the French will probably hold that up for UN political authority. Which would be OK except that they will want the UN to have complete political authority IE they will be in position to keep control in hand of Sunni Arab elite, keep down Kurds and Shia, make sure succesor regime is friendly to arab status quo and hostile to the US, (not to mention making sure that the govt repays debts to France, honors oil contracts, and gives France first dibs on rebuilding) After France and its pals spent so much time struggling to prevent regime change, this is simply NOT acceptable. Not to the US, and not to the people of Iraq, as far as I can tell.

And if that means no German help with rebuilding, so be it.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-10 16:17:28|| 2003-04-10 16:17:28|| Front Page Top

#14 Right on the backs of UN successes in Bosnia,Rwanda,Kosovo,Bougainville,Zaire/Kongo and let's not forget their careful management of the Palestinian Arab refugee camps over the last 30+ years.

And let's not forget that Kofi Annan was the chief of peacekeeping operations for the UN when his underlings started to file in reports that something was seriously amiss in Rwanda (several hundred thousand people,it turned out).Yet he and the rest of the UN did nothing to stop it.Total paralysis in the face of modern holocaust and what do they get for it?

A Nobel Peace Prize,of course.But so did Jimmy Carter,Yasser Arafat,Simon Perez and Mihail Gorbachev.A pattern,anyone?

Posted by El Id 2003-04-10 16:35:24|| 2003-04-10 16:35:24|| Front Page Top

#15 TGA - there are many, many ways to "promote" or support terrorism that don't include blowing up real estate or slitting people's throats. When the people of a nation turn their back on a friend because it's profitable to do so, that can be a form of terrorism. The GOVERNMENT of Germany made decisions, and those decisions are now coming back to bite them. Tough SH$$. There are consequences to behavior. Get over it.

On the other side of the coin, I know and respect many of the German people. I've walked among them, eaten their food, visited their cities, and spent time even on the soccer field with them (getting my butt kicked in the process!). I admire and respect many Germans. I just don't have any respect for their current government, or its current obsession with their newfound friend, France.

BTW, I was in Wiesbaden when the Baader/Meinhoff gang detonated a bomb at the IG Farben building in Frankfurt. One of those injured was a friend of mine. Germany has its links to terrorism.

As for France, what can I say? They've always been self-centered and a bit insane. I'm just puzzled why the German people would tie themselves so strongly to anyone so obviously deranged.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 16:37:30|| 2003-04-10 16:37:30|| Front Page Top

#16 Truth be told; Shroeder was elected under a false premise, schroeder is a communist, and since the fall of Soviet europe, communisms central nervous system was moved to the u n, where like a virus, it can infect by subversion, bribery and stealth the whole free world. The German people have not caught on yet but they will soon. Socialism is on a path called the 3rd way, it means states with small margins in local elections will appoint hard line communists to UN positions where each constituion of each republic is subverted by un caveat. Make no mistake the entire thing is near being exposed, subversion is what it is, our own dept of state is complicit, each time you hear dialog like We cant do something with out the UN you are hearing the wishful thinking of the movement to destroy each country by subjegation to the u n.

Got news for the left! Screw you!

Posted by AnonymousLy yours 2003-04-10 16:46:29|| 2003-04-10 16:46:29|| Front Page Top

#17 "When the people of a nation turn their back on a friend because it's profitable to do so, that can be a form of terrorism."

Dennis Kucinich says unemployment and homelessness are forms of terrorism. I dont like unemployment or homelessness, just as i dont like went nations betray allies in their hour of need - but lets keep things straight - terrorism is about murdering civilians for political or religious ends, and providing direct financial or logistical support to those who do - its not anything else.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-04-10 16:47:10|| 2003-04-10 16:47:10|| Front Page Top

#18 Old Patriot - I was in Frankfurt when that bomb (and don't forget the one it Heidelberg) went off - worked in V Corp Headquarters. It almost seemed as though the Germans accepted, even to some extent admired, the Baader-Meinhofs (who had committed a lot of crimes against the Germans before they bombed our headquarters). The cops got really serious about finding the bastards only after they killed a German cop. (BIG mistake!) Those were interesting times.

Germany still appears to be too tolerant of terrorists and terrorist wanna-be's - witness what went on in Hamburg prior to 9/11, and all the arrests they keep making even today. I, like you, still like Germany and the German people, but for the forseeable future, I'll be spending my tourist dollars elsewhere. Damn shame.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2003-04-10 16:59:31|| 2003-04-10 16:59:31|| Front Page Top

#19 Old Patriot, what the hell of an argument is this? A terrorist group detonates a bomb in Germany and then you say Germany has its links to terrorism??? Does the USA have its links to terrorism because of Oklahoma and 9/11???
liberalhawk, it's not true that Germany said it would only help after a UN resolution. Germany IS helping right now. German humanitarian organisations are refused entry into Iraq to bring help to Iraqi hospitals etc because they refuse to have their help delivered (and instrumentalized) by USAID, which is a US government institution and right now controlled by the Pentagon. Right now military aims and humanitarian aid go hand in hand in Iraq and it is understandable (and actually mandatory) for the Red Cross and other organizations not to be instrumentalized by the US military. It's inconceivable that US soldiers deliver goods from the German Red Cross and use foreign humanitarian aid for their own propaganda.
I have yet to check what Schroeder exactly meant by reconstruction. German constitution does not allow government institutions to work under the order of foreign government institutions except under UN umbrella. This includes the military but much more. Germany couldn't participate in an Iraq war not authorized by the UN. Schroeder has gone too far indeed but still it's the sovereign right of a country not to go to war. The ally USA has NOT been attacked by Iraq and preemptive wars have no place in the German constitution.
I'm not going into details about why Germany did not participate. Right now we are in Afghanistan, right now the USA can use its bases in Germany at will, use German airspace at its will, use AWACS planes patrolling the Turkish/Iraqi border (manned by Germans) at will. We may not be part of the grandiose "coalition of the willing" but we have done way more than Turkey or *chuckle* Micronesia.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 17:04:18|| 2003-04-10 17:04:18|| Front Page Top

#20 Barbara, the terrorist acts in Germany were only "admired" by a very radical leftist faction. They enjoyed about the same general public sympathy as the "Symbionese Liberation Army" in the US. The Germans have cracked down hard on terrorism all the time. We had no tolerance for them. Chancellor Helmut Schmidt refused to make any deals with them. The successful storming of a hijacked Lufthansa plane in Mogadisho is still in everybody's mind here. But we don't have a death penalty and we won't change that now. And we respect the law, we don't have extra laws for terrorists. When they were tried they failed to claim a political role. We just treated them for what they were: murderers. And the RAF terrorist organisation disbanded because it couldn't see any sense (or any sympathy for them) in their fight anymore.
Maybe the 9/11 group in Hamburg slipped through. Didn't they in Florida as well? You are always wiser after the deed.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 17:15:33|| 2003-04-10 17:15:33|| Front Page Top

#21 We may not be part of the grandiose "coalition of the willing" but we have done way more than Turkey or *chuckle* Micronesia.

Wouldn't be so sure about that last - there are a number of Micronesians in the US military... Micronesia was part of the US Trust Territory of the Pacific under United Nations Trusteeship. Lots of those folks found that the American military was a nice way to get a lot of goodies for themselves and their families, including training, education, and a halfway decent pension after 20+ years' service. One of the young men that worked for me in Germany in 1988 was from Micronesia.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 17:45:59|| 2003-04-10 17:45:59|| Front Page Top

#22 TGA, surely those who've so generously given to the Iraqathon campaign would rather see their donations go to the people they intend them to benefit, rather than sit in a neighbouring country because petulant aid workers have the paranoid idea the US wants to hijack humanitarian relief for propaganda purposes?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-04-10 17:51:30|| 2003-04-10 17:51:30|| Front Page Top

#23 Exactly Bulldog, they want the money to go to the people who need it most, not to the US military distributing the aid where it best suits their propaganda purposes. I'm saying that with no hard feelings btw, it's just a fact that the ideas of USAID and German help organisations don't seem to match. And German help organisations have been on the ground for years in Iraq. And they didn't allow Saddam to distribute their money either.
Btw institutions like the Red Cross or Caritas MUST stay neutral or they lose their credibility (and donators).
I donated 1000 Euros btw. You are welcome to do better than that, to the institution you chose.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 18:12:25|| 2003-04-10 18:12:25|| Front Page Top

#24 The coalition have delivered freedom from tyranny to the Iraqi people. I fail to see how delivering food, water and medical supplies is either beyond their capabilities or something they're now desperate to do to prove themselves friends of the common man on the street. Besides, call me ruthlessly efficient, but I'd have thought it sensible to have aid distribution centrally organised, even if not military administered, in order to ensure equal and thorough coverage. I'm not saying the German Red Cross is more to blame than anyone else here, but it seems to me as though aid is being used as a political weapon, and the victims are the recipients-to-be.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-04-10 18:27:34|| 2003-04-10 18:27:34|| Front Page Top

#25 BTW, sorry that reads a bit aggressive, TGA. Not intended. German intentions are good, we're just not seeing eye to eye on how to deal with this kind of thing at the moment. Yeah, and it's past my bedtime....

Posted by Bulldog 2003-04-10 18:49:10|| 2003-04-10 18:49:10|| Front Page Top

#26 Liberalhawk,
My definition of "terrorism" is the indiscriminate or excessive use of force, or the threat of such force, against a government or its people in order to coerce them into accepting a particular behavior they would otherwise not choose for themselves - I.E., "terrorizing" them. You don't have to actually kill someone to terrorize them - sometimes just the threat of such actions is sufficient. A good example is North Korea's threats concerning the regime's development of nuclear weapons. While Germany and France haven't been blatantly antagonistic, they have been obstructive, forcing the US government and its people to respond in ways other than what was desirable.

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 18:57:39|| 2003-04-10 18:57:39|| Front Page Top

#27 Nice definition indeed. Countries that don't follow US policies on pre-emptive wars are "obstructive" and rated "terrorist states". Wow

Waiting for the first cruise missile on Berlin now...

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 19:31:00|| 2003-04-10 19:31:00|| Front Page Top

#28 TGA -- Look, I don't think anyone here is denigrating the telethon, or the Germans' intentions. I could go into the usual "some of my best friends are Germans (ok, my brother's really, but still)" speech, but I won't bore you with it.

I've always felt that your country was a very good ally. I still think that your country and mine are friends. Our governments? Nope. Not after some of the comments made by both sides. I don't think it's anything that won't resolve in time.

I wasn't surprised at all by the Russians and how they behaved. I wouldn't have expected any different from the French. I was surprised by Schroder seemingly kissing up to the French. It seemed on this side of the Atlantic that he was letting Chirac lead him along by the nose. A lot of us were stunned by that, wondering if he couldn't see that the French were going to screw him over the first chance they got.

This is a rough time for our two countries, and the comments here reflect that. You've made several excellent posts in the short time that I've been reading this and would hate to see you leave.

Posted by Former Russian Major 2003-04-10 20:17:12|| 2003-04-10 20:17:12|| Front Page Top

#29 I wish it was seen more as a conflict between governments, true. Which it is... still. But the poisoning is starting and I really hate that.
Why? Because I always admired America, the freedom it had, the values it propagated but never forced upon others. Vietnam disturbed me a bit but having lived Stalinist terror I defended it.
I was truly saddened by 9/11 and I remember that everyone was. Hell we could even get that pacifist/leftist government to agree on Afghanistan. I don't know how things could deteriorate so fast in 2002.
I know that with no German government German combat troops would have gone to Iraq, but we would not have refused participation like Schroeder did. But it's also true that while Schroeder was digging his hole nobody from the other side of the Atlantic made efforts to help him to get out of the mess he created. In late 2002 Germany felt completely isolated. And that was the time when the French (or rather Chirac) grabbed their chance. And the mess at the Security Council started.
Had the US accepted that Germany couldn't join this war and said, ok abstain if you have to, we won't hold it against you, then France would have looked rather isolated and stupid. Chirac only dared his gamble because Germany could not refuse its assistance this time.
It took me quite a long time to be convinced that this war was necessary. It's a long story I know. It doesn't get any better the more I think about it. And US troops in Damascus won't help either, I'm afraid.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 21:00:14|| 2003-04-10 21:00:14|| Front Page Top

#30 TGA, I don't see your point about the US having to make an effort to help Schroeder get out of the mess he created. After all, previously you stated that each country has a right to make its choice about joining or not. Schroeder made that choice, so what's more there to say. And BTW, he was first to do so among all the naysayers. Secondly, there's a subtle difference between abstaining and actively obstructing the other side. For instance, Germany could have told Chiraq that the Americans had a valid point too, about having a deadline and serious consequences which could include war. Germany could have taken the middle of both extremes. Instead Germany took a side opposite to that of the US. And it was the wrong time in history to do it.

Posted by RW 2003-04-10 22:12:58|| 2003-04-10 22:12:58|| Front Page Top

#31 TGA-- Can't speak for your country, but on this side, I think some of the problem was the campaign that Schroder ran to get elected. It was seen over here as very anti-American. When one of his deputies compared our President to Hitler, and when I saw that "No Blood for Oil" magazine cover that replaced the stars in our flag with swastikas, I was sickened and shocked. Again, coming from France, that's one thing, but Germany? It seemed such an about face after the support Germans showed after 9/11.
So, yeah, we figured, hell, your economy hurting a little, Gerhard? GOOD. Chirac stabbing you in the back, dearie? EVEN BETTER. A little childish? Yes. I still don't think that it's something that can't be overcome with time.
There is some anti-German stuff out here, but truly nothing compared to the contempt we have for the French. I haven't heard anyone say that they won't visit Germany, or make the kind of jokes about Germany that they do about France. Any snotty comments are directed towards Schroder, never the people.
I haven't heard anyone seriously talk about going to Damascus next. That would be pretty stupid. We know that we have more than likely finished the easy part. The peace is going to be difficult, but we can do it. It just would have been better to have your country there with us, even in a noncombat role. (Thanks for the help with Afghanistan, by the way. Many of us out here do know your country is providing a lot of peacekeeping troops there and they are appreciated.)

Posted by Former Russian Major 2003-04-10 23:03:14|| 2003-04-10 23:03:14|| Front Page Top

#32 The Bush government never accepted that German choice and it decided to state an "example" on an ally that dared to disagree with the White House. The most elementary protocol of diplomatic behaviour was ignored. Bush didn't even send a congratulation when Schroeder won reelection. All German post elections efforts to mend fences were rebuked. Rumsfeld's remarks about Germany were insulting and drove Schroeder into isolation. An isolation the French took advantage of.
The Germans never took a stand against the U.S., they took a stand against being drawn into "pre-emptive" wars which they could not reconciliate with their constitution. And say what you will, that war was decided way before Powell took it to the UN. Nobody had the shadow of a doubt about the fact that the U.S. were going to invade Iraq anyway. There never was another choice. Maybe that was it what most members of the Security Council felt: We don't have a chance, so let's take it.
We have yet to see what comes out of it. But more pouting on both sides of the Atlantic won't help. Denying Germans and French access to the bidding process of Iraqi reconstruction will only backfire as sooner or later U.S. companies will face a similar fate in the EU. And does anyone want that escalation? If we continue down this path the situation could develop into a full blown trade war between EU and USA. Does anybody want that?

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 23:19:27|| 2003-04-10 23:19:27|| Front Page Top

#33 Former Russian Major, the campaign was not so much Anti-American, it was Anti-Bush or Anti-War. There were certainly zealots of the SPD and some leftist magazines that went too far but I guess the French took the "Chirac est un ver" the way this yellow press filth should be taken: by ignoring it. Freedom of the press is sometimes hard to bear, I know.
Still I insist: The mistakes were made on both sides. And still are...

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-10 23:37:38|| 2003-04-10 23:37:38|| Front Page Top

#34 TGA,
Sorry about the beligerance in my posts, but I am VERY upset by the German government's behavior in the last couple of years. None of this is directed at you - I understand your anguish at some of the comments I've posted, and that from many of the others here. I'm not mad at you, I'm not mad at "Germany", I'm mad at a man who has used my country as an object of derision in order to get elected to public office, and who has the unmitigated gall to say it's all our fault. Schroder has been a rough screech in our ears for long enough to go beyond annoying to active dislike. I know I'm not alone - I've even gotten several emails from GERMANS I know and respect, in Koblenz, in Wiesbaden, and in Bad Tolz, who also feel alienated by their elected officials.

We in this country feel it's perfectly fine to poke fun at, even ridicule, our government. We get VERY TOUCHY when someone outside does it, even when it's deserved. We only get angry, however, when someone deliberately does something to hurt us for no other reason than to curry favor with someone else. THIS is what Herr Schroder did that we cannot forgive - he not only didn't support us, he deliberately supported the French position. The deliberate sabotage of President Bush's attempt to impose the "penalty clause" in Resolution 1441 will take a generation to forgive. Germany's part in that leaves a very bad taste each time we think about it. I'm sure you, and most of the German citizenry, feel the same way.

It's really a shame, too, because we DO have a long history of working side by side, as we do even today in Afghanistan. You've said some things here in this forum I didn't know, and it does ease some of the bitterness - the fact that the German Constitution forbids certain kinds of acts, except in very specific circumstances. That doesn't erase the bad feelings I have for your Chancellor, however, nor the anger I feel at his use of anti-American sentiment among the Socialists and Greens in Germany to get elected. That stinks, old friend, and no deoderant is strong enough to erase that smell as long as Schroder is Chancellor of Germany. I know, from my German friends, that Bill Clinton caused many of the same reactions among Germans.

Those are affairs of governments, not of men. Let us, the two of us, not stoop to such low behavior, but remain loyal to our core beliefs, which I believe are very much the same. Let us continue our friendship - including the ability as friends to disagree about matters important to each of us.

My warmest regards,

Mike Weatherford
MSgt, USAF, Retired
(Formerly of Wiesbaden, Germany, 1971-75, 1980-83, 1987-89)

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-04-10 23:57:08|| 2003-04-10 23:57:08|| Front Page Top

#35 took a stand against being drawn into "pre-emptive" wars
But you say Germany has a constitution which prevents it from going to war, so how could it be drawn into this pre-emptive war anyway? No one expected Germany to send troops. In my opinion they need not have even financed the effort.
You claim that Germany chose their side based in part on American rebuke? Sheesh. I would not want to know what you think of me if I told you that Volkswagen cars suck.
And about denying Germany & France access to Iraq, if Germany & France have any honor, they would voluntarily stay out of the bidding process altogether, or at the very least quit making loud threats about this at the UN. They wanted no part of this war, so how could they now seek to benefit from it.

Posted by RW 2003-04-11 00:09:41|| 2003-04-11 00:09:41|| Front Page Top

#36 TGA -- I remember hearing about our President not sending Schroder a congratulations note, as was always customary. I think that after running, as you say, an anti-Bush campaign, that expecting such a note is a little on the crazy side. If the situation was reversed, would Schroder have sent Bush a congratulations letter for running a similar campaign?

Rumsfeld isn't the most diplomatic person. I know that some of the things he said angered your country, and I do think it was deliberate. Neither side of this acted like angels, and we are willing to accept our share of the blame.

We have no problem with freedom of the press. That's included in the first amendment to our Constitution. Maybe that cover was intended just for domestic consumption, but something that inflammatory was bound to get out onto the internet. If you are going to make that kind of statement, you have to be prepared for the consequences. That kind of thing went way beyond "Chirac est un ver." Call my president a name, fine. Make an implication that my government is a fascist, totalitarian state, and that is another story.

We are more touchy about things like this now. I still don't think Europe gets it. When we are told to "get over 9/11", that we are "bloodthirsty warmongerers" and worse, we aren't going to ignore it like we did in the past. We are more willing to go it alone, we are going to take acts that seem like betrayal more seriously.

We know that there will be trade sanctions against America when we shut out French, German and Russian companies for rebuilding Iraq. For all the talk of us being "reckless cowboys", we do know how the game is played. We are just incredulous that countries who weren't part of the campaign (Germany is not the worst offender in this regard, but it's going to be lumped in with the rest) are now demanding to be let in, in some cases, ahead of the line. It doesn't seem consistent to us for you to protest this war, do everything possible to keep us from going in, and then at the end insist on being part of the rebuilding.

Posted by Former Russian Major 2003-04-11 01:09:41|| 2003-04-11 01:09:41|| Front Page Top

#37 Thank you, Old Patriot, it's exactly because I know that most people here are in fact very intelligent and fair I take time to post here. And I feel honored being encouraged to do so.
The war aversion is deeply implanted in our collective mind: this makes it easy for mediocre politicians to exploit this feeling. But while parts of the left may cherish a certain form of "Anti-American superiority", this feeling is is not shared by the great majority of Germans. If you have been in Germany you will notice how "americanized" Germany actually is.
So let's just do what good democrats do: run non performers out of office and start again.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-04-11 02:25:09|| 2003-04-11 02:25:09|| Front Page Top

#38 TGA,
For the most part I agree with you.I have no problem with the Red Cross administering aid.But the U.N et.al.tried to screw the Coalition of the Willing and in so doing marginalized itself.Until the Dictator/terrorist dominated U.N.S.C.is cleaned-up it has no moral authority to have a say in anything.

By the way just who do you think will provide security for humanitarian relief convoys?

Posted by raptor 2003-04-11 09:39:05|| 2003-04-11 09:39:05|| Front Page Top

12:38 raptor
12:14 Former Russian Major
11:21 raptor
10:54 raptor
10:46 raptor
10:22 raptor
09:39 raptor
09:10 raptor
02:25 True German Ally
01:09 Former Russian Major
00:13 Dishman
00:09 RW
23:57 Old Patriot
23:37 True German Ally
23:32 JAB
23:25 Old Patriot
23:19 True German Ally
23:03 Former Russian Major
22:55 Frank Martin
22:40 RW
22:37 Dishman
22:14 Bomb-a-rama
22:12 RW
22:04 Alaska Paul