Article

2004-12-13 Europe

Turkey's Radical "Fringe" Returns to View

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Posted by .com 2004-12-13 12:23:43 AM|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Turkish military has withdrawn from 70 years of excluding Islam from politics and Islam has been encroaching ever since. As the mullahs are now the most organized, persistent, and funded force in the country, I expect that after one generation, Turkey will look a lot like the rest of the muslim countries.

Posted by ed 2004-12-13 12:48:26 AM|| 2004-12-13 12:48:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Ed, trend's there. But I am not sure there will be much of Islam's influence left in one generation. Anywhere.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 2:42:32 AM|| 2004-12-13 2:42:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Turkey like the rest of the Muslim countries?
What exactly do you mean?
Sounds like you have no idea what you talk about, and know zero to extremely less about Turkish history.

Posted by Murat 2004-12-13 5:21:40 AM|| 2004-12-13 5:21:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Turkey like the rest of the Muslim countries?
What exactly do you mean?
Sounds like you have no idea what you talk about, and know zero to extremely less about Turkish history.

Posted by Murat 2004-12-13 5:22:00 AM|| 2004-12-13 5:22:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Murat, they say that repetition is a mother of wisdom, but I make an exception in your case.

Here is what ED said: "I expect that after one generation, Turkey will look a lot like the rest of the muslim countries."

So, that is not history, that is future projection. I think it will not pan out, not because Turkie is in some way different from the muslim ME countries, but because Islam will lose big time in the next 25 years.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 5:29:52 AM|| 2004-12-13 5:29:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Ya know, Murat, instead of lamentations about our ignorance of the Turkish history, why don't you explain why you think this Ed's idea does not have a chance of transpiring...based on history, how it is reflected in present situation and what are your projections into future. Oh, and without any impromptu namecalling. That would be something novel.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 6:06:41 AM|| 2004-12-13 6:06:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 SOBiesky, Turkey is since 1921 a democractic republic, that's 3 or 4 generations now (more than most countries on earth), even you should realise that it would take a hell lot of change to reverse that (something like America becoming comunist)

Posted by Murat 2004-12-13 6:43:15 AM|| 2004-12-13 6:43:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Murat, it took a firm hand of Turkish military to hold Turkie on that path. It is not as firm anymore. I hope that you are right.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 6:57:15 AM|| 2004-12-13 6:57:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Democracy and a secular government are not cast in stone. They are dynamic balances that must be reaffirmed regularly or they will disintegrate into chaos, sliding to one side or the other of tyranny.

Will that happen in Turkey? I hope not. But the reality is that it could happen ANYWHERE if people are not vigilant - including in the US - given a generation or so who are raised to disrespect the demands of democracy and adhere to any extremist ideology.

Posted by rkb 2004-12-13 7:24:53 AM|| 2004-12-13 7:24:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 rkb, xactly. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance".

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 7:36:12 AM|| 2004-12-13 7:36:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Sobiesky said: Murat, it took a firm hand of Turkish military to hold Turkie on that path. It is not as firm anymore. I hope that you are right.

First I see no any sign that Turkey becomes radicalized, sure there are always a few nudheads (where don't you have them). Secondly take Iran for example, it is actually Iran that is militarily hold Theocratic and not vice versa, the same counts more or less for the Arab kingdoms too.
So compared yes we did have some military coups in our past but on the contrary to what people might imagine or think about Turkey, it is very hard to say Turkey is a militaristic country.

I for my part would bet my money on the democratic system instead of the Theocratic systems you fear (they are doomed to follow the path of Communism)

I know that the Muslim rethoric is played by the politicians a lot, even as an argument to get Turkey in the EU. But Turkey becoming fundamentalistic is really out of touch, near to unrealistic.

Posted by Murat 2004-12-13 8:04:57 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:04:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Murat, in Iran, the military is a tool of mullahs, not vice versa.

In Turkie, military was a guarantor of secular nature of the state. Often with a firm hand. The target in the past were mostly communists, but that is another religion, too.

I hope that you are right. I have some friends in Turkie, and I have to say that they are a bit worried, especially the females.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 8:13:26 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:13:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Turkish history? Like the Armenian Genocide?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 8:16:53 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:16:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Yea, Frank, I would like to see Murat once acknowledging that it happened and although he can blame mostly Ottomans for it, they were Turks. His Turkish history starts in 1921, curiously, but the Armenian genocide was still going on until 1923.

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 8:26:14 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:26:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 C'mon, Murat can't acknowledge it without facing jail time!

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:28:07 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-12-13 8:28:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 RC, Rantburg has jail? Hmmmmm. :-)

Posted by Sobiesky 2004-12-13 8:30:50 AM|| 2004-12-13 8:30:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 We wish!

But, no, it's illegal to bring up the Armenian Genocide in Turkey.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 8:50:58 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-12-13 8:50:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Sobiesky,

Well I don't know what kind of friends you have then, are you sure they are in Turkey?

And what Armenians concern, fuck them who cares. It was war and people die end of story. You guys better concentrate on the genocide in Iraq right now.

Posted by Murat 2004-12-13 10:38:51 AM|| 2004-12-13 10:38:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Sounds like you have no idea what you talk about, and know zero to extremely less about Turkish history.

How about refuting what was said?

You guys better concentrate on the genocide in Iraq right now.

And now, back to the Moonbat Hour, starring Murat.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-12-13 11:13:15 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:13:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Welcome to Brinkmanship 101. It's the "Let us in or we shoot Grandma" routine. Problem is:

1. The Europeans aren't sure that Grandma won't get shot anyway. Once the metaphorical Islamic-radical genie is out of the bottle (even for threat/demonstration purposes), it's going to be hard to put it back,

2. The EU won't be the 'EU' if Turkey becomes a member (even if Grandma doesn't get shot),

3. The Europeans are trapped by their decades of rhetoric and 'tolerance'; either way they decide, they (and Grandma) "lose".

As far as Iraq is concerned, whatver is going on there, it sure as hell isn't genocide. The only that really got massacred was the Arabs' high opinion of themselves.

Posted by Pappy 2004-12-13 11:48:55 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:48:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 I doubt the theocrats will gain much traction in Turkey. The durability of Turkey's secular democracy has been shown by the ease with which Turkey has accomodated the coming to power of an Islamist party in recent years.

Posted by lex 2004-12-13 11:53:11 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:53:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 cool...another new Murat. His english varies between sounding more westernized but less accomplished than Murat 1. He's starts very smooth, but his emotions get the better of him. More interesting than Murat II, on a par with Murat I.

Posted by 2b 2004-12-13 11:59:35 AM|| 2004-12-13 11:59:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Is Murat a Turkish name? I always thought of it as a Napoleanic Field Marshall's name. Or does Murat mean stupid in Turkish?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-13 1:16:04 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:16:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 MD: Is Murat a Turkish name? I always thought of it as a Napoleanic Field Marshall's name.

Murat is an Arabic name. Napoleon's Murat may have had Arab ancestors (perhaps Christian, perhaps Muslim). Napoleon himself was of Italian (Corsican) origin.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-12-13 1:51:57 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-12-13 1:51:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Since Armenian genocide's been mentioned here you go.

"France has said it will ask Turkey to acknowledge the mass killing of Armenians from 1915 as genocide when it begins EU accession talks.
French Foreign Minister Michel Barnier said Turkey had "a duty to remember".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-13 1:58:54 PM|| 2004-12-13 1:58:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Here's were Prince Achille and Princess Murat ended up. The princess was the neice of G. Washington.
Nice place 'eh?

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-13 2:04:01 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:04:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Aris-and that's as it should be (although France has a few facing-ups to do in its own closet of "duties").

Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-13 2:06:21 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:06:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 a fixer-upper, Ship

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-13 2:16:30 PM|| 2004-12-13 2:16:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 (although France has a few facing-ups to do in its own closet of "duties")

I'd like to see them own up to their destruction of the Natchez, the last of the Mississippian mound-builders. There are much, much bigger crimes in their closets, but this one particularly pisses me off.

They'll never do it, of course, because it interferes with the easy story blaming "Americans" for "killing all the Native Americans".

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-12-13 2:28:39 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-12-13 2:28:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 I think Murat ran away. Bummer.
I was hoping he would tell us what ethnic group we're committing genocide against. Maybe the Kurds? I mean, they have a very special place in the Turkish heart.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2004-12-13 5:13:12 PM|| 2004-12-13 5:13:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Poor Murat. Everytime he shows to bring up American genocide, that Armenian "thing" seems to magically pop up in the conversation and kick him in the ass.
Bye Murat.

Posted by tu3031 2004-12-13 5:26:27 PM|| 2004-12-13 5:26:27 PM|| Front Page Top