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2007-11-25 Europe

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Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2007-11-25 16:28|| || Front Page|| [3 views ] Top

#1 The Pope favoured the idea of a watchdog for church music when he was the cardinal in charge of safeguarding Catholic doctrine.

Without wishing to be too blunt, I'd sure as Hell like to know when Benedict will install a watchdog to purge the church of its known sex offenders. I love Gregorian chants and have always been intrigued by their prototypical forms of musical notation but all of this is window dressing compared to the importance of him defending his flock from predatory priests.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-25 19:16|| 2007-11-25 19:16|| Front Page Top

#2 Zenster, you obviously haven't a clue about what the Catholic Church has endured after the disclosure of predatory priests and the cover-up attempts by some bishops.

Dioceses have filed for bankruptcy, personnel records of clergy and laity have been combed for evidence, often going back 40 or fifty years, people in retirement homes have been investigated and sometimes arrested. Churches, convents, rectories, schools, and other properties have been sold to pay restitution and lawyers' bills.

Friend, every Catholic worthy of title, including the Holy Father, knows perfectly well the crimes (and most of them occured in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) and the associated penalties still being exacted.

Perhaps even worse is the toxic atmosphere of liability terror that permeates the parish halls and offices across the country. For a taste, I'd suggest reading this essay.

Posted by mrp 2007-11-25 19:36|| 2007-11-25 19:36|| Front Page Top

#3 Friend, every Catholic worthy of title, including the Holy Father, knows perfectly well the crimes (and most of them occured in the 50's, 60's, and 70's) and the associated penalties still being exacted.

Fear not, I'm rather well aware of the sea change being experienced within the Church. As you yourself admit, there are "penalties still being exacted", so the job is clearly not yet done. I just happen to have some difficulty with an institution that delegates itself authority to dictate conduct for man and woman alike without any religious authority given to the second sex.

However, that is not my central point. Even amidst all of the devastating parish closures and bankruptcies there have remained a sufficient number of obviously concealed histories and coverups whereby I feel obligated to be concerned.

Moreover, in the larger picture of things, if so much progress has been made toward ridding the Church of its predatory felons then I must, once again, hope that Pope Benedict would find it of far greater importance to assail Christianity's greatest menace, which is not modern liturgical music but Islam.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-25 21:05|| 2007-11-25 21:05|| Front Page Top

#4 As a Catholic who grew up with guitar and sandals folkish hippy music, I'm happy to participate in the Inquisition.

'Is that a Tamborine? Please come with me.'

Posted by JAB 2007-11-25 21:40|| 2007-11-25 21:40|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm glad the Holy Father has taken the time to address the issue of music in the liturgy. You should attend Mass, Zenster. Maybe pray for the Pope to declare a crusade. Or watch other people worship. It's ... healthy.

Being an atheist or an agnostic must be hell if all you can do is wait for the Pontiff to hoist his crozier and call for a crusade.

Posted by mrp 2007-11-25 21:47|| 2007-11-25 21:47|| Front Page Top

#6 The reform of Liturgical Music has been rumbling seriously for about a decade, having beguin back in the 1980's. The problem is during the latter part of John Paul II's Papcy, the Bishops were allowed much latitude, and this resulted in abuses, especially in LA and other ultra-liberal dioceses - where they invented garbage like "liturgical dance" which is nowhere to be found in the General Intstructions Roman Mass - the Official Missal (I.e. the "rulebook" for Catholic Mass).

This is simply the return of common sense, and putting the majesty and sense of awe back into the Mass in those areas, and making it something set apart from the daily world while still in it. It is reaching back centuries and drawing on proven traditions, unlike the commonplace pop-style music which is transitory in the long run, and whose use marks the mass as mundane and nearly meaningless.

Its much like the return of the Traditional Latin Mass and the influence that is having on the Novus Ordo Mass - its a way to uncover and restore the dignity of the Mass to those worshiping, instead of trying to hide it under a layer of pop culture.

It puts the emphasis back on God and less on entrtaining.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-11-25 22:16|| 2007-11-25 22:16|| Front Page Top

#7 Zen there is a council in just about EVERY diocese that handles these things. There are also USCCB rules for this, and you have to go through not just state, but Diocese classes and vetting before you are allowed to work with children (fingerprinting, NCIC and State checks, as well as strict psychological evaluations - and I'm going thru these on my path to possibly becoming a Deacon). Same goes for lay adults that work with children (minus the psych stuff) - they are NEVER allowed to be alone with a child that is not their own. Most of the abuse was in LIBERAL areas, like LA and Boston, with liberal bishops, who coddle active homosexuals in the Church. And there has not been a case reported where the abuse occured since the mid 1990's or so, with the vast majority of the abuse occuring in 1965-1975, with the crimes of hiding them occuring after that. Their time is at an end, and we regular Catholics have made sure of it.

The Pope himself has put forth some internal pressure on the Bishops councils in variosu countries, and the Vatican has recommended regulations such as we have in response to pressures. Look at Cardinal Stafford at the Vatican - the former ArchBishop of Denver, who has a ZERO tolerance policy for Priests convicted of abuse (and immediate removal from contact for those charged and suspected). He instituted the changes above back in the 1990's, and they have worked and been replicated all over the US. Thats why the moved him to the Vatican - so he can spread that.

For you to suggest the the Pope is responsible for this is to be ignorant of the structure of the Catholic Church, and its Bishops. ANd you obviously know nothing of anythign other than old news and violatiosn from decades ago that the news drags out as if they happen today.

You dont know jack squat, and yet you bray. SUrely you are not so stupid as to accept the MSM's version?

You might want to point your bigoted rhetoric against the Public Schhols - far more abuse goes on there than from Catholic Priests. And don't negelect the Protestants as well - in Colorado, as in many locations, they have comitted more abuse the Catholics, but have no central Church for the lawyers to pick clean. You never hear about it in the news, because the public schools cannot be sured for large sums over it, they have immunity, and portestants dont have biug funds to pay a penalty with, so they dont get a splash. Plus liberals in the press dont want to pick on public schools lest they lose their indoctrination machinery.

Plus Catholics are the last target for bigots in the country - its OK to pick on us.

Frankly, as a conservative orthodox Catholic, I am tired of this crap by misinformed ignoramuses outside the Church snd will not put up with it. Keep doing this, I am going to bust every post of this sort by nitpicking, unraveling the weak reasoning, showing the ignornace and lies, and discrediting the poster for playign at being a bigot.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-11-25 22:28|| 2007-11-25 22:28|| Front Page Top

#8 I agree with most of that, OS, except that the liturgical and musical abuses go back to the late 60's - during Paul VI's papacy. Even in Ohio, the local Franciscan seminary had nuns dancing in front of the altar during Mass - and that was in 1974.

Pope Benedict's recent motu proprio , is a watershed event, I believe (I still have my 1965 St. Joseph's missal, which includes the rubrics and liturgy for the Blessed John XXIII Mass).

Posted by mrp 2007-11-25 22:40|| 2007-11-25 22:40|| Front Page Top

#9 I believe the hardcore demands of Islam have been the main reason they get converts in the Western World. This converts who need discipline used to join the Catholics but somewhere the Catholics got as soft was the Protestants.

I hope they gain a spine again under Benedict. So what if the athiests and agnostics hate you, call them racists, pagans and cowards and go about God's work anyway.

Posted by rjschwarz 2007-11-25 22:45|| 2007-11-25 22:45|| Front Page Top

#10 I'm not as Old School as OS seems to be but share his sentiments.

And, the change in emphasis on liturgical music is in fact important. The crappy hippy music was never that appealing to young people anyway and detracted from the ritual. I think younger people respond better to the old music anyway and, in fact, have led the movement to re-integrate some Latin hymns, etc. into the liturgy. If the Church loses a few lefties over this, it'll probably be better off. They might fit in better with the Anglicans, based on what I've read from the Archbishop lately.

I happen to think people want awe and structure in this chaotic world we live in and that getting rid of this lefty music will actually attract and retain more believers as weekly Communicants.

My offer to lead the purge was only half in jest. I'll round up the guitars, tamborines and recorders. No more open toed footwear for men on the altar either. If we have to 'break a few eggs', so be it.

Posted by JAB 2007-11-25 22:58|| 2007-11-25 22:58|| Front Page Top

#11 For you to suggest the the Pope is responsible for this is to be ignorant of the structure of the Catholic Church, and its Bishops. ANd you obviously know nothing of anythign other than old news and violatiosn from decades ago that the news drags out as if they happen today.

I do not lay all blame upon Benedict. I just want him to keep his priorities straight. Especially with respect to Islam.

You might want to point your bigoted rhetoric against the Public Schhols - far more abuse goes on there than from Catholic Priests.

As if I don't know that? As a teacher, my father molested his JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL students. I know damn well the sort of shit that goes on there.

Posted by Zenster">Zenster 2007-11-25 23:50|| 2007-11-25 23:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Let's see what the official Vatican reply to that 138-co-signed Muslim letter includes. It's been awhile.

Posted by mrp 2007-11-25 23:53|| 2007-11-25 23:53|| Front Page Top

#13 I'm also Catholic. I don't mind the guitars so long as the musical selections are appropriate: definitely religious, definitely approved over long periods of time by practicing Catholics, and appropriate to that point of the Mass.

I also don't mind that the Mass is in English. I appreciate the Latin, but I also appreciate being able to participate and to say words that I understand.

The hippie music has to go. Fortunately, my church doesn't have any of that nonsense.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-11-25 23:57|| 2007-11-25 23:57|| Front Page Top

23:57 Steve White
23:53 mrp
23:50 Zenster
23:35 Zenster
23:24 twobyfour
23:07 3dc
23:05 McZoid
22:58 JAB
22:45 rjschwarz
22:41 Bright Pebbles
22:40 mrp
22:39 OldSpook
22:33 OldSpook
22:28 OldSpook
22:26 Haliburton - Border Control Divison
22:23 JosephMendiola
22:22 JosephMendiola
22:16 OldSpook
22:08 Anonymoose
22:05 Zenster
22:02 3dc
22:00 Zenster
22:00 Bright Pebbles
21:48 3dc