Article

2004-11-21 Iraq-Jordan

Victory in Fallujah - Iraq's Iwo Jima Gets Little Media Respect

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Posted by Frank G 2004-11-21 6:04:31 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm not so sure about that rule of thumb. We did not suffer 7 times as many causalties than the N. Vietnamese - in fact they took many more. If you add S Vietnamese causalties and Vietcong causalties, I still can't make the math come out anywhere near what it is supposed to.

In fact, I think the terrorists in the Phillipines aren't inflicting anywhere near 7 to 1 either.

Posted by mhw 2004-11-21 7:24:08 PM|| 2004-11-21 7:24:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 The North Vietnamese were a regular army, not a guerilla force. I would think you would have to look at at least the pre 1966 and possibly pre 1964 ratios to determine how well the VC guerilla force measured up to this rule. Data for that period are probably pretty unreliable. More meaningful is that the VC failed as a guerilla movement and the NVA had to pick up the slack for them.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-21 7:34:31 PM|| 2004-11-21 7:34:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 but they aren't fighting the Lions of The Desertâ¢ surrounding by islamic-loving-civilians willing to die for Allah.....7 to 1 goes the other way, mhw

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-21 7:39:02 PM|| 2004-11-21 7:39:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Thinking about it more, I agree with Frank G that a 1-7 ratio sounds more likely. That is, that if the jihadis were able to kill 1 American for every 7 Jihadis, we would be in trouble. To do this they would have had to have killed about 200 Americans + Iraqi Govt in Fallujah.

Of course in reality, the Jihadis achieved only about 30% of what they needed on this. If you look at the previous large scale action in Najaf, the Jihadis (granted a different species of Jihadis) only achieved about 5% of what they needed.

Posted by mhw 2004-11-21 9:48:14 PM|| 2004-11-21 9:48:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 agreed - but I would guess the 30% high (IMHO only). No haven/permanent safe houses should really cramp the IED/car bomb/ etc programs

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-21 9:50:49 PM|| 2004-11-21 9:50:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 #4 mhw, I believe you have the ration BACKWARDS. TO be effective they must kill 7 of US for every one of them when fighting as guerillas. That's why they cannot afford to fight pitched battels like Fallujah. A true guerilla fighter needs to account for seven, or so, kills before he is killed, and thus must try to avoid confrontation.

In a pitched urban battle, conventional wisdom HAS always favored the defender. The losses described in the original article sound about right for what normally could be expected. Our training, technology, discipline and spirit are re-writing the rule book...at least for US!

Posted by Justrand 2004-11-21 10:47:20 PM|| 2004-11-21 10:47:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Justrand

The Jihadis lost about 1400 in Fallujah. If the US had lost 1400 taking Fallujah (or even 700), popular opinion would (I'm pretty sure) be running against the war.

Posted by mhw 2004-11-21 11:17:49 PM|| 2004-11-21 11:17:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 From AFP in 1995 HANOI (AP) - April 4. Cinq millions de morts: 20 ans apregraves la fin de la guerre du Vietnam, le gouvernement de Hanoi a reacute veacute leacute, lundi, le bilan d'un conflit dent le nombre de victimes avait eacute teacute minore a l'eacutepoque pour ne pas affecter le moral de la population. Selon Hanoi, il y a eu pres de deux millions de morts dans la population civile du Nord et deux autres millions dans celle du Sud. Quant aux combats proprement dits, les chiffres sent d'un million cent mille militaires tueacutes et de 600.000 blesseacutes en 21 ans de guerre. Ce dernier bilan comprend a la fois les victimes de la guerilla vietcong et les soldats nord-vietamiens qui les eacute paulaient. Les preacute ceacute dentes estimations de source occidentale faisaient eacute tat d'un bilan de 666.000 morts parmi Ies combattants Vietnamiens.

We lost 58,202 men in VietNam. Hanoi says that the Vietnamese lost 5,000,000 during the 21 years of hostilities. During the Tet Offensive, the loss ratio for the NVA was 30 to 1, but the US press turned it into a victory, the turning point of the war.
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html

Posted by RWV 2004-11-21 11:35:41 PM|| 2004-11-21 11:35:41 PM|| Front Page Top

00:00 Kalle (kafir forever)
23:58 Mike Sylwester
23:50 trailing wife
23:49 Red Lief
23:44 trailing wife
23:43 Mike Sylwester
23:38 BillH
23:35 RWV
23:30 PBMcL
23:19 RWV
23:17 mhw
23:03 muck4doo
22:57 JosephMendiola
22:52 anonymous2u
22:47 RWV
22:47 Justrand
22:38 JosephMendiola
22:33 JosephMendiola
22:02 lex
21:52 True German Ally
21:50 Frank G
21:48 mhw
21:40 SC88
21:31 CornÃ®liÃ«s