Article

2003-11-07 Terror Networks

In Africa Alone Everyday, 16,000 Muslims Leave Islam

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Posted by Fred Pruitt 2003-11-07 00:01|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Every day thousands of Muslim intellectuals are leaving Islam
So what happens in two days time?

I guess the best way to check this Mullahs claims on converts would be to check major evangelical website and see what kind of figure they give out for Muslim converts, but I don't feel like doing that.
Like it says, there are millions of Iranians who have walked away from Islam, probably becoming agnostics with a general idea of right and wrong, like millions of people in the west. However, I have a feeling that it is not the Wahabi-Salafi types who are renouncing Islam, but more like the 'moderates'. So this won't reduce our problems in the short-term, as for the future, who knows?
Maybe in a hundred years African crusaders will be invading Europe, the last bastion of Islam...or perhaps their will be universal agnosticism, combined with pc new age elements and shorn of historical context.

Posted by Paul Moloney 2003-11-7 12:24:14 AM|| 2003-11-7 12:24:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 These numbers are probably bogus, but I've never bought into the notion that Islam is growing for any reason other than birth rates. Practicing any religion rigorously in the modern world is something of a stretch, but trying to wrap your mind around a religion that clearly has violence at it's core can't be easy, no matter where you live. It must be an absolute bitch trying to convert people (without coercion) to a faith that oppresses women, thinks nonbelievers should be killed, is anti-science, etc., etc.

Christianity, for all it's faults, has as its central message love, understanding, peace. It's an amazingly beautiful message. Has it been warped over time, yes. But Christianity's violent period, such as it was, ended many centuries ago. (I know I'm abbreviating all this, so spare me the lectures). The core ideas are still wonderful...which is why anywhere that Christian missionaries go they have little trouble converting people. No wonder fundamentalists Muslims hate them...They can't compete with the message.

Posted by RMcLeod 2003-11-7 3:11:43 AM|| 2003-11-7 3:11:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 There ARE photographs of evangelistic crusades numbering more than 100,000 people.

I'll be commenting later on this, but here's a link to chew on: The Next Christianity.

Posted by Ptah 2003-11-7 6:29:49 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-11-7 6:29:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 The difference between Christianity and Islam are simple: The ability to change.

Christianity looks for a greater understanding of the world through the teachings of Jesus. However, different point of views are widely accepted and even discussed within the Church. Even my family has differing opinions on some points.

Islam only allows strict teachings and proclaims that change is blasphemy. You could say that since Islam is younger than Christianity, it has yet to grow out of this stage. But that's not the case.

In the early days of the Church, only Jews were allowed to be Christians. That changed when Paul, with the backing of Peter, convinced the congregation to allow Gentiles (Non-jews) into Christianity. This wasn't even 50 years after Jesus death!

Islam has no such example of tolerance, except maybe Salidin. But he was a general, not a religious leader. I wouldn't be suprised if these numbers were too high or too low.

Posted by Charles 2003-11-7 9:17:42 AM|| 2003-11-7 9:17:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 "They find out that the mechanistic ritual of praying five times per day, reciting verses that they do not understand and indeed mean nothing, getting up at taxing hours of the morning and abstaining from food and water until the sunset are not means to becoming more spiritual but are instruments to control their mind. "

Geez, i wonder what this guy thinks of praying 3 times a day, or taking a 25 hour fast twice a year, and daylight fast several times a year. I know (non-muslim) people who do that, and THEIR minds are pretty good. as for reciting verses they cant understand - so mebbe all they need is prayerbooks with translations, or better education of children in the language of prayer (Conservative and Orthodox Judaism do both)

I dont know about the accuracy of the numbers, but the rest of whats there sounds not like a real understanding of Islam (or of ANY non-Christian religion) so much as a bit of bigotry. Which would lead me to discount the numbers.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-7 10:16:12 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:16:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "Practicing any religion rigorously in the modern world is something of a stretch"

On the contrary, practicing RIGOROUSLY is doing just great in the modern world - as is secularism. Whats dying is all the old moderate religius compromises, all the mixtures of religion with local culture, etc.

Look - Evangelical Christianity is booming - "mainstream" Protestantism is in decline. Orthodox Judaism is growing (and no, not just because of birthrates) and Reform and Conservative are declining (and to the extent they are surviving, its largely cause of small groups who are attempting to be MORE RIGOROUS in practice) Within Islam Wahabism has been stomping out Sufism - some of thats Saudi money, but some is also the way modernity favors rigorous faith, and disfavors local traditions.
Ive heard that in India the Hindu fundie movements have displaced local traditions to some extent as well.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-7 10:21:43 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:21:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "In the early days of the Church, only Jews were allowed to be Christians. That changed when Paul, with the backing of Peter, convinced the congregation to allow Gentiles (Non-jews) into Christianity. This wasn't even 50 years after Jesus death!

Islam has no such example of tolerance, except maybe Salidin. But he was a general, not a religious leader. I wouldn't be suprised if these numbers were too high or too low. "

IIUC the issue on which the church changed was one on which Jesus was silent. No changing anything where Jesus said something. Or, later, where Paul said something.

Muslims wont change what they beleive Mohamed said in the koran, or practiced according to the Hadiths. Just as Judaism wont change the laws of Moses. They WILL interprete the Koran and Hadiths - of necessity, since modern times present novel problems. Just as Judaism, interprets the bible and Talmud. And like Judaism, they have historically used interpretation to make changes while at the SAME time DENYING they were doing so.

Now a group of people (salafis) wants to undo some of the changes - like the redefinition of Jihad - or make totally new changes - like abolishing Sufi practices - all IN THE NAME of going back to 7th century models.

millions of people in muslim world, both modernizers and very traditional sufis, reject this salafi approach. Oddly, many in the west embrace the Salafi definition of Islam, and reject the interpretations of both modernizers and Sufis - of course this leads to a definition of the current conflict as a clash of civilizations, something desired BOTH by the Salafists, and by some in the west.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-7 10:31:16 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:31:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 "What Muslims say among each other, is not the same thing that they say for the consumption of the Westerners."

Yup, its all in the Protocols of the Elders of Mecca. And the damned ungrateful Muslims wont even credit Jews for the idea!

I know that people in saudi say nasty things in arabic that they dont say in english. I can read Memri. But to (even implicitly) suggest that this is true of each and every muslim in the world, without knowing that individual, is both unjustified and invidious.

And yes - likely to lose us this war, dammit.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-7 10:34:36 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:34:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 BTW, if any of the Christians here think this guy is on your side, here's something from the websites FAQ

"My criticism applies to all religions. The very concept of God sending messengers to be known and worshipped is absurd. All those who come pretending to bring a message from an invisible god that only they can see are charlatans and their claims are bogus. I do believe in a higher Reality and a Single Principle underlying the creation, but not in an egotistic self-centered petulant deity as depicted by these self-appointed prophets."

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-7 10:39:49 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:39:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 R.McLeod...good post.
Ptah. It's tough to kill a good idea. No?
Charles..Christianity prevails, because like many of the other religions (excluding militant Islam), it's good advice. Faith, hope, charity, forgiveness, love....and other lessons passed through the generations, often most fully comprehended when sitting at the deathbed of a loved on.
Liberalhawk..it's true what you say of fundi movements, but it's because someone is busy selling. Advertisers can get millions to fill the movie theaters for a rotten flick...but it's just a flash in the pan. It's the classics, via word of mouth that ultimately get the most viewing.

Posted by B 2003-11-7 10:44:49 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:44:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 If the numbers are true (which I doubt) it is probably the rebound effect of the rapid expansion of Islam into subsahara Africa during the 90s. Now that Islam is being stood up to in numerous places those that felt forced to become Muslim might have second thoughts.

Posted by Yank 2003-11-7 10:52:43 AM|| 2003-11-7 10:52:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 B: *Nods* damn right.

LH: The guy is off-base: He wants a sugar daddy God that gives no definite commands and makes no definite demands. In short a God made in his own image, after the modernizers and liberals that you cite. (BTW, the Charismatic and Pentecostal wings of the Christian faith hold to a "direct connect" model, where every person is their own prophet, to whom God directly speaks, but who are sent only to themselves, and who must be held accountable to the Scriptures. Naturally, such people are held to an even higher standard than everyone else.)

And you are quite right about the benificial effects of returning to a "rigorous" (what I call, at my website, the "original, primitive") form of Christianity. By "rigor", I do not mean "rigid" or "unchanging", but "highly disciplined", "Carefully reasoned", seasoned with a lot of fact and logic checking. you stated "the issue on which the church changed was one on which Jesus was silent. No changing anything where Jesus said something. Or, later, where Paul said something." Right on! The things that are the real killers are the unspoken assumptions that have no biblical basis, but seem so reasonable and logical and sound. (...edits out long passage on popular beliefs not found in the Bible, and which have led Christians to oppress and kill people...) Most of these assumptions sneak in during early education in the faith, when critical thinking isn't encouraged, and thus come up to bite you when you DO learn to think critically. IMHO, most people leave Christianity due to "doctrines" that cannot be supported from the Scriptures, or due to assholes who hold said "doctrines".

Posted by Ptah 2003-11-7 3:14:49 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-11-7 3:14:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Christianity is no doubt the largest religion on earth and no doubt that Islam does not seem to be the fastest growing religion on earth. I do not mind or challenge the number figures rather I believe actual figures might be higher who knows. I only believe that Islam has been loosing ground for many centuries mainly because of the fact that many of the muslims are by and large only by name muslims and do not seems to be practicing islam in total. very few of them practice 5 daily prayers that are essential part of islam. However, I solemnly belive that Islam is certainly the best religion on earth and if its followers are good, it should bring peace to the world. We can blame muslims but not islam.

Posted by Ahmad 2004-1-1 1:22:10 AM|| 2004-1-1 1:22:10 AM|| Front Page Top

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