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2003-11-19 Europe

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Posted by Steve 2003-11-19 9:21:52 AM|| || Front Page|| [11126 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 General impression on theses? Whatever can be said about Turkey, one thing remains certain : unlike many others european nations (including mine; note that I am a castrat myself), they still haven't been neutered by political correctness, relativism, avoidance of conflicts, and all of the others "benefits" of being a post-modern society. I'm going to irrate Murat, but it is a time trip, like looking at a pre-1914 France or Belgium.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-19 9:33:30 AM|| 2003-11-19 9:33:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Explain yourself closer Anonymus, and what country are you from?

Posted by Murat 2003-11-19 10:02:19 AM|| 2003-11-19 10:02:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Murat, I meant that as some kind of compliment; you've been disrespected often here, sometimes quite injustly, and I'm surprized your interest is pointed by such a remark. Perhaps you adjust better to ad nominem comments. IMHO, Turkey still seems to "believe in itself", still seems able to act, even act harshly; note I may not be talking about the real Turkey you live in, just the impression I have. I'm from la belle France, and my great personnal theory(tm) is that the country never recovered from its 1914-1945 suicide/traumatizing decolonization. I guess we could use a little more nationalism, a little more strenght in our supposed values (equality, laicity, unity of the state,...), a little more pride.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-11-19 10:32:27 AM|| 2003-11-19 10:32:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I've never disrespected Murat being a Turkish patriot, demanding that his country act in a manner that it support its citizens. My beef is that he doesn't want anyone else to be a patriot to THEIR country, or to demand that THEIR government act in a manner that supports THEIR citizens.

However, I DO respect Murat, who embraces his nation and people, warts and all, over Aris, who seems to favor subjugating his own nation and people to a twice removed from direct elected EU parliament and president, and appears all too ready to chuck his fallible neighbors in favor of a yet-to-be-proven transnational government.

Give me patriots over tranzis any day of the week: At least you know where the hell the former stand.

Posted by Ptah 2003-11-19 10:46:30 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-11-19 10:46:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Ptah> "who seems to favor subjugating his own nation and people to a twice removed from direct elected EU parliament and president his own nation"

The EU parliament is directly elected, not "twice removed from" and such nonsense. Why do you keep on babbling about stuff you have no idea about?

And I quite support making the (still non-existent) EU president directly elected also (though the US doesn't have a directly elected president either btw) -- something which is ofcourse strongly opposed by all the anti-federalists, since 99% of the anti-federalists aren't actually favouring democracy or freedom or independence or whatever they say they claim, they are only favouring nationalism in all its "let's mistrust those evil devil foreigners" ugly glory.

And 'European' *is* my own nation and people. I simply want said nation united, the same way I would have wanted Athens united with Sparta in a voluntary union of peoples.

It's not called "subjugation" when it's done mutually and voluntarily, Ptah. A voluntary mutual subjugation is called "marriage" instead.

Not that I'd expect you to understand what that means.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-19 11:56:35 AM|| 2003-11-19 11:56:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 But Aris, how can it be mutual if one partner doesn't get to vote on whether or not he/she wants the marriage? In a certain country, it looks more like a shotgun wedding, since no vote will be allowed because daddy (their betters) know what's best.

Posted by Anonymous2U 2003-11-19 12:55:00 PM|| 2003-11-19 12:55:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 "And 'European' *is* my own nation and people. I simply want said nation united, the same way I would have wanted Athens united with Sparta in a voluntary union of peoples."

Actually I like this far better than blatherings of some euro lefties that they are "beyond nationalism", that nationalism is really fascism, or is only for us benighted Americans, etc. Ignoring the problems with running a democracy without emotional dedication to the polity - which dedication IS nationalism. If Europe REALLY has dedication of the type Aris expresses, they have a reasonable chance of building a real democracy. As myself a citizen of a federal state, how can i assert otherwise.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-11-19 1:46:26 PM|| 2003-11-19 1:46:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 This discussion group would be far less interesting without the likes of Aris or Murat, Hiryu, or any of the others I usually disagree with. I occasionally even get something useful from Murat's posts (when he's not trying to see how much trouble he can stir up, but engages in thoughtful debate), and on a lesser degree from Aris. JFM ALWAYS provides interesting comment, even when I don't agree, as do Bulldog and TGA. While there are those whose comments are always worth reading, and a few whose comments are seldom worth reading, we get exposed to a broad band of commentary which helps us to understand the situation as well as we can, and to come to conclusions - partly based on what we read, partly based on who and what we are, and partly based on how we see the world. In order to make this the best possible form of discussion, good points, good ideas should be acknowledged as such, and idiotarian statements attacked for the stupidity they espouse. The idea, however, is to attack the message, not the messanger. Sometimes the message IS the messanger - that's when the fun begins!

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-11-19 1:46:28 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm] 2003-11-19 1:46:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 And 'European' *is* my own nation and people

LOL. Put down the drugs Aris.

Posted by Rafael 2003-11-19 2:01:47 PM|| 2003-11-19 2:01:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Anonymous2U> Not sure what country you are talking about. Cyprus? I think the only reason a vote didn't take place there was because the situation was complicated enough with half the country occupied by foreign troops, and the two sides in the middle of negotiations about reunification, which also include the very fact of EU entry as a motive.... If you also had *both* communities voting twice, for EU entry and for reunification... um, that'd be even more of a mess.

But I don't think *anyone* can seriously argue that Cyprus' people don't want the EU or that it's enforced to them by "daddy" from above. Support in polls is so overwhelming that it's ridiculous - above 80%.

liberalhawk> It depends on what you call nationalism. I do also see the EU as a stepping stone to abolishing nationalism altogether. Perhaps in a couple hundred years we'll have a global planetwide federation of sorts. Still distant, that dream, though, so I'll settle for surpassing internal European nationalistic divisions. And it *is* a big step.

Rafael> *shrug* I often feel more European than I feel specifically "Greek". If you don't believe me that's no concern to me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-11-19 2:52:28 PM|| 2003-11-19 2:52:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 liberalhawk> It depends on what you call nationalism. I do also see the EU as a stepping stone to abolishing nationalism altogether. Perhaps in a couple hundred years we'll have a global planetwide federation of sorts.

Aris: No thank you.

Posted by Secret Master 2003-11-19 6:27:08 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com] 2003-11-19 6:27:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Perhaps in a couple hundred years we'll have a global planetwide federation of sorts

Unlikely the Martian Secret Service is using the so called Mossad to keep the nation states of this planet apart.

(But you didn't hear that from me)

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-19 7:05:54 PM|| 2003-11-19 7:05:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Good Heavens! OT enuf to be banned.

But what ever happened to the Martian Manhunter?

Posted by Shipman 2003-11-19 7:07:15 PM|| 2003-11-19 7:07:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Ever watch Babylon V?
The part about the Martian other colonies"War of Independance".

Posted by Raptor 2003-11-20 9:30:29 AM|| 2003-11-20 9:30:29 AM|| Front Page Top

10:54 Aris Katsaris
09:30 Raptor
08:07 B
00:19 Old Patriot
00:11 Old Patriot
00:05 tu3031
00:01 absentee ballot
23:53 Old Patriot
23:36 tu3031
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23:31 Steve White
23:29 Old Patriot
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23:18 Robert Crawford
23:14 Robert Crawford
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22:53 Alaska Paul
22:50 Jarhead
22:48 Jarhead
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22:44 Alaska Paul
22:43 PBMcL
22:33 Jarhead