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2004-11-14 Europe
Anti-Muslim sentiment on the rise in the Netherlands
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Posted by Dan Darling 2004-11-14 1:08:54 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 maybe we should have limits on what you can say. I am from Turkey.

Will apostasy laws be far behind?

Want a lever? Outlaw any creed that has jihad as a tenent.

Go teach your jihad to Morocans in Morocco but leave Holand alone.
Posted by Lucky 2004-11-14 10:48:35 AM||   2004-11-14 10:48:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 "We’re not going to accept this. Things will get worse," said Suleiman Sinan, a Turkish teacher at the school.
Not quite a threat, but clearly expecting escalation.
Posted by Tom 2004-11-14 10:54:37 AM||   2004-11-14 10:54:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "We’re not going to accept this. Things will get worse," said Suleiman Sinan, a Turkish teacher at the school.

Reminds me of the old TV show You Asked For It!
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-14 10:59:53 AM||   2004-11-14 10:59:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 the previous night, Dutch racists had set the place ablaze.

Whoops, nice typo. I'm certain they meant to write, "suspected Dutch militants".
Posted by BH 2004-11-14 11:38:45 AM||   2004-11-14 11:38:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 America will soon also have to take the following steps that Holland should take now:

1) Totally OUTLAW all Wahhabi, Deobandi & Sufi mosques;
2) Bar all Saudis from entering Holland;
3) Kick all Saudis that are in the country now out of Holland;
4) Cut all contact with Saudi Arabia.
Posted by leaddog2 2004-11-14 11:45:06 AM||   2004-11-14 11:45:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 leaddog2, well, one glitch there... the majority of jihadis in Holland (and Spain) are Moroccans. In France that would be Algerians. Notice that quite a few are second generation residents.

Of course, it has to start somewhere.
Posted by Cornīliës 2004-11-14 11:49:15 AM||   2004-11-14 11:49:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 BH, you know better than to question the conclusions reporters come to. Next thing you know He Who Shall Not Be Named will be here demanding an explanation.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-11-14 11:50:09 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com]  2004-11-14 11:50:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I'm just sayin'. They need to have a little balance and avoid using terms that reflect bias on the part of the news service. After all, one man's racist arsonist is another man's freedom fighter.
Posted by BH 2004-11-14 11:53:25 AM||   2004-11-14 11:53:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 RC - explanations with links and evidence? LOL
Posted by Frank G  2004-11-14 11:57:38 AM||   2004-11-14 11:57:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Leaddog - I could be wrong (and if I am, someone here with the necessary knowledge will correct me), but I think Sufi Muslims are not the problem. IIUC, Sufis are mystics, not terrorists, and are hated and even oppressed by both Wahhabis and Sunnis.

.com, you probably know. Is that right? If not, what's the straight 411 on Sufis?
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-11-14 12:00:54 PM||   2004-11-14 12:00:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 You don't by any means have to be a racist to be an Islamophobe. Would a racist white Dutchman be a suppporter of Ayaan Hirsi Ali; AFAIK the most vocal critic of Islam still left alive in the Netherlands? This reporter is using the Left's favourite tactic when it comes to issues of cultural disharmony: putting it down to race hatred.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-11-14 12:05:23 PM||   2004-11-14 12:05:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 of course, because they're taught in Journo school facts like: Islam is a race
Posted by Frank G  2004-11-14 12:12:58 PM||   2004-11-14 12:12:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Wahabbism is based on Salafi-ism, NOT Sufi-ism. Sufi's are almost considered apostates by Wahabbis.
Posted by Brett_the_Quarkian 2004-11-14 12:27:08 PM||   2004-11-14 12:27:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I’m neither a historian nor an expert on Islam but the impression I’ve gathered since 911 is:

Sufi’s tend to be mystic and are not considered true Muslims by fundamentalists.

That does not mean that Sufi’s don’t engage in jihad. The Sufi teacher has strong influence over his students. If the teacher is inclined toward violence the students will follow. Historically Sufi’s played a significant role in past rebellions against the British in Iraq.
Posted by Anonymous5032 2004-11-14 1:58:32 PM||   2004-11-14 1:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 "If nothing is done, according to Bolkestein, cities such as Amsterdam, Rotterdam and Utrecht will have "non-European" majorities within a couple of generations"

Been there, done that: LA already has a non-white majority population. New York will soon, as will in all likelihood San Francisco, Dallas, Denver, perhaps Chicago and other major US cities.

Nothing better illustrates the failure of Europe's approach relative to ours. For the US, a non-white, non-Euro descent population is not a problem because we do not conceive of our national identity in terms of race. Also because, by reducing the state's heavy hand and giving immigrants huge economic opportunities in a freewheeling, open capitalist economy, we co-opt separatist religious minorities and give them a real ownership stake in society.

My guess is that this racial/cultural conflict will eventually force Europe's elites to recognize its deeper roots: the failure of heavy-handed state intervention in economic and social life, an intervention that turns potential strivers into resenters. And that will push true strivers out of Europe, to America's great benefit. Will they ever learn?
Posted by lex 2004-11-14 2:44:22 PM||   2004-11-14 2:44:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 lex: Our national identity may not be defined in terms of race, but that doesn't stop us having problems with groups who define themselves in racial terms and in opposition to our "national definition." I've heard too many ghetto types (ghetto is a culture, not a race) who offhandedly claim that they're not part of the "white man's world." (I ride the bus a lot--and run into a bigger cross-section of the population there than I do at work.)
Posted by James  2004-11-14 4:03:59 PM|| [http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]  2004-11-14 4:03:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Yes, we do indeed have a major problem with a small minority of one small minority group that happens to be overwhelmingly concentrated in the core of our great cities. An exception to my point. But nearly all the population growth in the big cities is coming from latino and asian-americans, and it's these rising minority groups whom I had in mind.
Posted by lex 2004-11-14 4:09:29 PM||   2004-11-14 4:09:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Barbara concerning Sufi-ism. Like all(?)religions it has its thinkers and its followers, but in my experience Sufi-ism teaches you are responsible for your life (None of that Inshallah Sh**) and in my opinion it has a lot of similarities with Buddhism. Concerning Sufis role in rebellions, that would be consistent with their philosophy of - you got a problem, then its up to you to figure out a solution and do something about it.
Posted by phil_b 2004-11-14 4:39:41 PM||   2004-11-14 4:39:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Lex it's far more than one small minority group and merely being a striver does nothing to guarantee assimilation into American culture. A few notable strivers you may have heard of: Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Adolph Hitler, Noam Chomsky, George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, etc. (I could literally go on for hours). None of them would have / have assimilated successfully into American culture. As a matter of fact the one thing they all share is a loathing of everything that is American culture.
Posted by AzCat 2004-11-14 6:58:25 PM||   2004-11-14 6:58:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I want to know what "White Power" slogans they used. Is "down with Islam" now synonymous with "white power?"
In reality, if the anti-Islamic attacks were the work of white supremacists, does that detract from the reality of the problem with Muslim extremists in the lowlands? (Are we all supposed to surrender and give them our womens now?)

Methinks the lefty reporter was playing a little fast and loose with definitions and relevance.
Posted by Asedwich  2004-11-14 8:37:34 PM||   2004-11-14 8:37:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 AZCat, you missed the whole point. America does not attract people like Chomsky or Stalin or Hitler. Chomsky was a spoiled brat born in the US, btw.

"Striver" as I use it refers mainly to people engaged in nonpolitical activities, business and the professions primarily. In my lexicon the opposite of a "striver" is a "resenter". Strivers are concerned with creating a stable and prosperous environment for their family and contributing to the larger community. Resenters are more interested in tearing down the larger community.

A good example of the differences between the two is found by comparing the Irish who emigrated to the US, and became the wealthiest ethnic group here, with their relatives who stayed in Ireland and are notorious for their class envy, resentment and hostility toward anyone who's economically successful.

Religious minorities in this country have an outstanding record of success in these areas, and I see no reason that hardworking, striving, well-educated scientists, doctors and entrepreneurs who happen to be muslim will not also achieve and contribute to this country as the quakers, mormons, catholics, jews, and sikhs before them.
Posted by lex 2004-11-14 8:48:48 PM||   2004-11-14 8:48:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Lex - I didn't miss your point, I just don't agree with it (and I'm well aware that Chomsky is a native).

If Europe suddenly becomes very anti-Muslim, the first Muslims to flee will be those with the strongest religious convictions, the very ones who'll be nearly impossible to assimilate into any western society. Even if that's wrong and a cross-section flee all you'll accomplish by opening the US to them en masse is the permanent installation of a critical mass of Musims capable of keeping the apostates in the crowd in line.

Don't believe it? Read up on why many American Muslims were silent following 9/11. Many Muslim immigrants, even here, are afraid of the radicals in their midst. Until and unless you develop a 100% foolproof screen for those (impossible IMHO) you'll do more harm than good with mass immigration.

The problem lies in our society's inherent ability to assimilate newcomers. Take in too many in any one group and you build a persistent subclass. Ther more insular & virulent the beliefs of the newcomers, the smaller the number required to instantiate the subclass. I submit that American Muslim fears of the radicals in their midst is strong evidence that we've already passed the point of forming the subclass. Larger numbers will only serve to reinforce the meme.
Posted by AzCat 2004-11-14 9:47:40 PM||   2004-11-14 9:47:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I also submit that I should preview these things before I post them.
Posted by AzCat 2004-11-14 10:01:36 PM||   2004-11-14 10:01:36 PM|| Front Page Top

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