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2005-11-03 Europe
Seventh Day of Violence Erupts Near Paris
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Posted by Fred 2005-11-03 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 "In that case, why accept them? Why allow people from a foreign culture to swarm into your country and large numbers and set up their own local caliphates?" Been to LA lately?
Posted by Skidmark 2005-11-03 00:42||   2005-11-03 00:42|| Front Page Top

#2 You don't even have to have that great an education.Learn the language,be willing to work hard and don't be an asshole and they would get along ok.Not great but ok,you don't have to have a college degree to swing a muck stick.I mucked out chicken coops to put a roof over our heads and put food on the table,these poor,disadvantaged youths don't get a damn bit of sympathy from me.But you do have to get off your ass and be willing to work.That's the biggest part of the problem These dipsh#%ts have been on the dole so long(many all thier lives)they don't have any concept of what work is.Hell,at least most of our imagrints(legal and illegal)are willing to work.The government of France is just as much to blame,if they had made,made the imargrints learn the language and work instead of handing out frebbies for decades France wouldn't be in this position.Pay attention Euorpe or your turns coming.
Posted by raptor 2005-11-03 00:53||   2005-11-03 00:53|| Front Page Top

#3 Isn't owning guns such a great and wonderful honor!!
Posted by Long Hair Republican">Long Hair Republican  2005-11-03 00:53||   2005-11-03 00:53|| Front Page Top

#4 At least we can admire the French for being consistent.
Posted by Master of Obvious 2005-11-03 01:08||   2005-11-03 01:08|| Front Page Top

#5 Wretchard at Belmont Club has some maps and photos.
Here
Posted by 3dc 2005-11-03 01:21||   2005-11-03 01:21|| Front Page Top

#6  from the Brussels Journal site Wretchard refers to

Sweden: “‘If we park our car it will be damaged – so we have to go very often in two vehicles, one just to protect the other vehicle,’ said Rolf Landgren, a Malmo police officer."

France: “Sarkozy says that violence in French suburbs is a daily fact of life. Since the start of the year, 9,000 police cars have been stoned and, each night, 20 to 40 cars are torched.”

Brussels: “The police has been told [by the Mayor] that it is ‘not expedient’ to patrol [in the Brussels suburb of Molenbeek] and officers are not allowed to drink coffee or eat a sandwich in the street during ramadan.”

Denmark: 4 days of riots caused by these cartoons here.
Posted by 3dc 2005-11-03 01:50||   2005-11-03 01:50|| Front Page Top

#7 7 days is full blown out of control. You will never stuff this genie back in the bottle. No matter if and when the violence subsizes (it will on it's own at some point perhaps the government hopes). Those who carried it out are now emboldened by the free reign they have already had and have been given by the French Government. France is in for much worse.
Posted by Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2005-11-03 01:52||   2005-11-03 01:52|| Front Page Top

#8 Encourage these yoots to find employment opportunities in the Southern Med.
Posted by ed 2005-11-03 02:07||   2005-11-03 02:07|| Front Page Top

#9 A greed,SOP.Given the weak response of the police & French gov,France is in some sirious doodoo.The bad boys will do what they want,when they want.The only way out of this is for France to send in the military and do some sirious,old fashion ass stompin,followed by mass deportations.And I don't foresee this happing.Byebye France it's been real.Get out while you can JFM!
Posted by raptor 2005-11-03 02:09||   2005-11-03 02:09|| Front Page Top

#10 As per LA - Mexicans are the hardest-working people I know. There's not much of a dole in the US to corrupt them.
Posted by buwaya 2005-11-03 03:34||   2005-11-03 03:34|| Front Page Top

#11 Rodney King on vacation?
Posted by Master of Obvious 2005-11-03 04:54||   2005-11-03 04:54|| Front Page Top

#12 The RBers who spoofed the paleostinian intifada were right : the (muslim) "mediators", les grands frères (the big brothers), were greeted by the sweet melody of "allah U akbar", always a good sign, as seen on tv... their revendications include the "respect of their identity", "the retreat of the police", and "its stay on the periphery, assuming a discreet stance".
LOL! The french entity must evacuate the Gaza strip, I mean the Seine Saint-Denis!
Oh, and of course, "the truth on the death of the two teens" (truth being they died of sheer stupidity, IMHO), and "the truth on the hurling of a teargas canister in a mosque" (because the infidels who dood it must be punished!)...

Note that the few rioters who were caught have been so far sentenced to über-dissuading 1-3 months of jailtime, so the situation must not be as as bad as it seems, or so say the judges.

One police union wishes the gvt to establish a curfew, sounds like a good idea to me; note that there was some more sniping on police officers; IIRC the unions have long said that if/when the situation gets so bad they're shoot at (again, I repeat myself, this is not something that appeared spontenaously, this has been going since the 90's, getting worse by the year, and the exceptional thing is now the international media coverage), they'll use their "droit de retrait", IE fall back, and ask for the army to go in.

You can go there to check the "Wacco plan" set by the military to hold back the suburbs (in french, but there is an autotranslation button, don't know if the comments which are very interesting will be translated too)
http://www.france-echos.com/actualite.php?cle=1227

This is truly an identity/sovereignty problem : theses populations mostly feel muslim and/or arab, maghrebian, algerian, moroccan,... first, and not french at all (and this even for quite normal and non-yob people, I can attest of that, having very colleagues who are nice, respectable people, but insist their country is Tunisia or Morocco).
An survey on muslim teens found that only one in ten would fight for France, and an internal survey on muslim volunteers in french army found about the same ratio willing to fight against a muslim country (!); I do not remember the exact results, but a 2004 survey in french schools found that a large majority of muslim teens felt "muslim" first, and not french.

Add appeasement (gesture toward islam by mayors, mosque built with public money regardless of it being forbidden by the 1905 law on State-Church separation,...) and buy-off (subsidies, benefit,...), and you've got an explosive situation in which the muslim pressure grows at the same rate than the muslim population itself (300-500 000 migrants each year, not counting children, 80% muslim, birthrate between 2,5-4 against 1,2 for "ethnic" french,...).

For the third time, I really feel sorry for "joe-six pack", plain people, average folks who do not deserve this, especially the ones having to live it (insecurity, antiwhite/judeochristian prejudice,...) but official France has built an "occupied territtories" problem for herself, and this is hilarious.

The Enlightened Elites sold us to Eurabia, and managed to shoot themselves in the foot at the same time. LOL!

And the worst part is : France is bankrupt, no more money. As soon as the payments dry off, all the public sector will convulse, and so will the muslim suburbs living off benefit. There may be an "Argentina scenario" in the making for France in a decade or so, or even sooner... with the added 8-10 millions muslim minority problem, and a revolutionary left that has allied itself to it.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-03 04:58||   2005-11-03 04:58|| Front Page Top

#13 Shoot the Muzzy bastards down in the streets. Let Sarkozy state publicly that rioters will be shot on sight and their families immediately deported to country of origin. Immediately stop any immigration from Muslim countries and start massively deporting those Muslims who are in France. Give the welfare money you're paying them to the Moroccan, Algerian or Tunisian governments to take these scumbags. They'll find someplace to put these "yoots" to work that will induce them to be peaceful citizens--or fertilizer.
Posted by mac 2005-11-03 05:14||   2005-11-03 05:14|| Front Page Top

#14 If this really is the start of a series of revolts in France, then the Muslims have made a mistake. Waiting 5 years would be a much better idea. France still has some strength in her, if she would remember. The Muslims started the civil war too soon.
Posted by gromky">gromky  2005-11-03 05:35|| http://communistposters.com/]">[http://communistposters.com/]  2005-11-03 05:35|| Front Page Top

#15 I have been thinking about this. This very well could bring down the current government. Chirac is useless. Sarkozy and de Villepin look at themselves and see Chirac's replacement (fat chance of that currently.)

After 7 days this is clearly a larger threat to the 5th Republic than we are being led to believe. The French government is actually powerless to respond as needed. A major threat to Europe and the EU exists here as well. I always thought Germany would be the first victim. It appears France will be.
Posted by Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2005-11-03 07:02||   2005-11-03 07:02|| Front Page Top

#16 Just got started,5089,but this article is going to be tuff to follow.

The syntax and phraseology of this thing is very bizzar(ex:(1)voluntary projection of a heavy object... is moulted in "fall" whose cause disappeared.(2)...due to the ethnic bands, ...(3)
Posted by raptor 2005-11-03 07:13||   2005-11-03 07:13|| Front Page Top

#17 This is just a taste of what is to come when a severe recession hits (in the next 12 months). Bankrupt European governments will cut welfare payments as revenues decline and the 'contract' of we will stay quiet as long you pay us ends. The social disorder will be something to behold.
Posted by phil_b 2005-11-03 07:19||   2005-11-03 07:19|| Front Page Top

#18 I've occasionally wondered why the cops don't throw rocks back at them.

Because that would be use of deadly force, and you're not allowed to do that unless you're facing deadly force. And if you're wondering, no, a rock chucked by a teen thug isn't deadly force, because he's an oppressed minority.

Many immigrant families are trapped in housing projects that were built to accommodate foreign laborers welcomed by post-World War II France but have since succumbed to despair, chronic unemployment and lawlessness.

Ya know, know one forced them to succumb to despair, etc. That was their choice.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-11-03 07:31|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-11-03 07:31|| Front Page Top

#19 oops

(3)the assumption that bands can fold up their great sets towards wooded sectors was explicitly programmed.
Could be a problem with the translation,but I think this thing is deliberatly written to be almost unintelagible.
"...under another denomination, in the press of the in addition to-Mediterranean"What the heck is that supposed to mean?
The 1 overriding thing I got from this article is:I'm dan glad I'm not a French cop.

Wish I could read the coments.
Posted by raptor 2005-11-03 07:45||   2005-11-03 07:45|| Front Page Top

#20 Can't throw the rocks back because they will be throw back at you again.

Rocks are recyclable. Knives are reusable. Recipients of bullets cannot reuse or recycle.

Posted by john">john  2005-11-03 07:58||   2005-11-03 07:58|| Front Page Top

#21 I've occasionally wondered why the cops don't throw rocks back at them.

Do NOT provide ammunition to your enemy.
Posted by Redneck Jim 2005-11-03 08:15||   2005-11-03 08:15|| Front Page Top

#22 Excellent Theodore Dalrymple piece on the Parisien 'Burbs from a couple of years ago.

http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html
Posted by JDB 2005-11-03 08:25||   2005-11-03 08:25|| Front Page Top

#23 "Can't throw the rocks back because they will be throw back at you again."
Not if you throw them accurately, and FAST enough. Think 'refined galena, supersonic'.
Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore  2005-11-03 08:26||   2005-11-03 08:26|| Front Page Top

#24 "If French society accepts these tinderboxes in its society, it cannot be surprised when they explode."

Ahhh...the ole "Cultural Timebomb" excuse with a twist.
Posted by DepotGuy 2005-11-03 08:32||   2005-11-03 08:32|| Front Page Top

#25 Some said the unrest ... is an expression of frustration over grinding unemployment and police harassment ...

who said it? Why is it that these excess adjectives reporters never have any real meat to their stories? "Some say"", "an 18-year-old who would only give his name as Amine", easily available quotes from Chirac and Sarkozy and the local mayor and a "sociologist". Nothing from police sources or anyone who might shatter the reporters carefully worded picture of the poor, poor, yoots.

Oh wait, my bad..he did get this: unnamed "Muslim leaders at Clichy-sous-Bois' mosque, meanwhile, prayed for peace and asked parents to keep teenagers off the streets"

but maybe the reason the yoots didn't listen to the unnamed "Muslim Leaders" is because the one quote that he did get from Abderrahmane Bouhout, president of the Clichy-sous-Bois mosque expresses sympathy for their actions: "They have no work. They have nothing to do. Put yourself in their place,"

That's why I read blogs. Because from this report, which was little more than the standard 1960's gruel of frustration and despair caused by The Man(TM)...I got to read anon5089's real reporting on the subject. And if I want, I can go to Belmont and get some more details.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 08:37||   2005-11-03 08:37|| Front Page Top

#26 M. LePen is mounting his white horse as we speak, prepared to make his entrance.
Posted by Flinetch Clang6718 2005-11-03 08:45||   2005-11-03 08:45|| Front Page Top

#27 Think they'd be pulling this shit back home in Algeria or Tunisia or whatever hellhole they came from? They'd get cut down like dead trees.
Posted by tu3031 2005-11-03 08:58||   2005-11-03 08:58|| Front Page Top

#28 Reading the comments on the France-Echos site, they sound like Rantburgers. They are debating whether it is time to form militias. The vocabulary is similar to here: Eurabia, the caliphate, demographic decline, decadence vs patriotism, lefty collaboration with the enemy, spineless politicians. There are obviously some Frenchmen who are not going to submit quietly!
Posted by jolly roger 2005-11-03 09:04||   2005-11-03 09:04|| Front Page Top

#29 viva la resistance!
Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 09:06||   2005-11-03 09:06|| Front Page Top

#30 @ Raptor : sorry, it's autotranslation like babelfish, it's bound to be gibberish; the article is an emergency plan unofficially dubbed "Wacco" whose existence was known after it was leaked to the algerian army, and it has been drawn up in the early 90's not by police but by the french army (law enforcement in France is both civilian/police and military/gendarmerie), and assumes civilian police will be overhelmed and will fallback if/when TSHTF.
Then, the army would have to step in, coordonate civilian defense, police and army, and reduce 70 major nodes of unrest, using urban counterguerilla tactics, with the help of other european units (the bit about "wooden area" is simply about how prescient the plan was, since it anticipated moves by the 1995 islamists, or the Roubaix gang shoot-out place).

It concludes with a review of the contradictatory orders given to law enforcement, its internal divisions (right wing union vs left wing, military vs police), and the dread situation it faces, with officers powerless against ethnic bands and having to defend themselves while being abandoned by their hierarchy.

Comments are by two editors of the website, and concerns the possibility of a muslim uprising, the reaction population should adopt, and what shoudl be done (regroup into defendable place, as the authorities would be way too much occupied to defend each and every citizen and it would facilitate their action), one seign more of a "political solution" (army will do its job), the other an "armed" one, with the creation of a citizen militia.

@2b: thanks, but that's giving me way too much credit, I'm just another schmuck who follow this in media, real reporting would be from the locals, all I give is a french view, and a biased one to boot... and JFM would be more interesting because he's got more clarity on that.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-03 09:15||   2005-11-03 09:15|| Front Page Top

#31 Chirac should meet with the leaders of the EU to give them fair warning prior to the deportations to allow some of them to do the same thing at the same time giving each other a bit of political cover.

From what I understand Chirac is going to jail anyway when his term is up, he might as well act to save his country now, and do the politically unpleasant task because when the Muslims control the jails he'll be in trouble.
Posted by rjschwarz (no T!) 2005-11-03 09:36||   2005-11-03 09:36|| Front Page Top

#32 Who would hire youths or any other group, for that matter, who riot? How many businesses prize employees who assault others with rocks, or set property ablaze? Duh.

And if these immigrants were they actually awarded jobs, think of what effect their spiritual principles would have on the workplace in France. Principles that have them justifying violence, discriminating against women, and forcing their religious ideals on everyone.

France is notorious for long-arming anyone who is not a "native", but this makes little difference to immigrants who do not want to "assimilate". If some common hoop of assimilation were estabilshed as a condition of residency, the rioting would flare, but France would eventually gain the upper hand. But France lacks the will to do so.

France still has to decide whether it cares that immigrants are trying to impose their cultural norms on the host country.
Posted by jules 2 2005-11-03 09:37||   2005-11-03 09:37|| Front Page Top

#33 I de3clare the first French Intifada officially open.
Posted by gromgoru 2005-11-03 09:38||   2005-11-03 09:38|| Front Page Top

#34 From Belmont Club - The riot police, fire department and public order apparatus may have been present in the rioting banlieus, but the Idea of France was conspicuously absent. The Idea of France, not the hodgepodge of welfare benefits, Marxist obscurantism and world-weariness that that is palmed off as sophistication, is what has to present itself as an alternative to the Green Banner of Islam. Otherwise it will be a contest between something and nothing.
Posted by Bobby 2005-11-03 10:26||   2005-11-03 10:26|| Front Page Top

#35 SPOD you are RIGHT.

After 7 days, the muslims KNOW they have France by the balls.

This will embolden them.

France can look out for MUCH worse in the future, this is just a taster.

If the French want control of their country they are going to have to meet the next major riot with loudhailers and media announcements declaring martial law, and stating that rioters will be shot on sight.

They will then need to issue coppers with shoot-to-kill orders and give them automatic weapons.

There is going to be blood in the streets one way or the other. The only way the 5th republic has a hope in hell is to make the mussies fear them.

Fear and actual oppression will make them fit in and assimilate. It is the only way.
Posted by anon1 2005-11-03 10:35||   2005-11-03 10:35|| Front Page Top

#36 The irony that just cracks me up is that the purported reason all these mooselimbs are there was because of the labor shortage. Now we're told, constantly, that the poor puppies have no work.

It is to laugh, or cry.
Posted by AlanC">AlanC  2005-11-03 10:58||   2005-11-03 10:58|| Front Page Top

#37 ..a week of riots that left residents on edge and sent the government into crisis mode.

Seems to me crisis mode would have been reached long before a week had passed.

So when's the official surrender?
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-11-03 11:12||   2005-11-03 11:12|| Front Page Top

#38 Why don't the french have spines? Because all that calcium rich cheese they eat should do wonders for their bone development.

The french have brought this on themselves and they show NO sign of having learned from their mistake.
Posted by Dave 2005-11-03 11:36||   2005-11-03 11:36|| Front Page Top

#39 #2 Raptor.

Amen.
Posted by BrerRabbit 2005-11-03 12:27||   2005-11-03 12:27|| Front Page Top

#40 Reading the comments on the France-Echos site, they sound like Rantburgers. They are debating whether it is time to form militias. The vocabulary is similar to here: Eurabia, the caliphate, demographic decline, decadence vs patriotism, lefty collaboration with the enemy, spineless politicians. There are obviously some Frenchmen who are not going to submit quietly!

Thanks for passing that on, Jolly Roger. I have no idea how prevalent that spirit is in france, but that it even exists (and has a common point at which to rally) is the best news I've heard in quite a while.
Posted by docob 2005-11-03 12:57||   2005-11-03 12:57|| Front Page Top

#41 notes

1. So far this is only in Muslim North African areas? There are other immigrant in France - non-muslim Africans, for ex, I think. So this is a muslim issue, not a general immigrant thing?

2. Nonetheless - its all youths complaining (rightyly or wrongly) about police "brutality". No Islamist slogans. No support from adults.

3. Note well - Sarkosy, whose tough line on crime seems to be whats pissed the "youths" off (best line from Sarkosy - when you shoot at police, youre not a youth, youre a lout) is the principle pol SUPPORTING funds for mosques. De Villepin, whos taking the softer line on the riots, OPPOSES the funds, as do the French Socialists.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 13:08||   2005-11-03 13:08|| Front Page Top

#42 The French authorities appear to have given the rioters carte blanche to continue for as long as they like, so the question is: will the rioters eventually get bored and give up, or will they raise the stakes and start killing people?
Posted by Ulaper Spuper8075 2005-11-03 13:21||   2005-11-03 13:21|| Front Page Top

#43 Here is a January 2004 Telegraph article that influenced my thinking of France's future. If the muzzies had any brains, the imams would advise the ummah to lie low for the next 20 years, continue procreating and drain France of welfare benefits.


Is France on the way to becoming an Islamic state?
France is facing the problem that dare not speak its name. Though French law prohibits the census from any reference to ethnic background or religion, many demographers estimate that as much as 20-30 per cent of the population under 25 is now Muslim. The streets, the traditional haunt of younger people, now belong to Muslim youths. In France, the phrase "les jeunes" is a politically correct way of referring to young Muslims.

Given current birth rates, it is not impossible that in 25 years France will have a Muslim majority. The consequences are dynamic: is it possible that secular France might become an Islamic state?
Posted by ed 2005-11-03 13:25||   2005-11-03 13:25|| Front Page Top

#44 Re: jobs vs. laziness, no doubt there's a ghetto mentality in the cites at this point. But that said, the French workplace is heavily structured to prevent wage competition or job creation. enterprising immigrants would find far fewer low-level/entry jobs they could leverage into a better lifestyle even if they were enterprising and skilled.
Posted by lotp 2005-11-03 13:30||   2005-11-03 13:30|| Front Page Top

#45 2. Nonetheless - its all youths complaining (rightyly or wrongly) about police "brutality". No Islamist slogans. No support from adults.

And you know this, how, exactly? I mean, to know there are no Islamist slogans -- then the press is reluctant to even discuss who is rioting -- requires more information than appears to be available.

The same for "no support from adults" -- you know this how, exactly?
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-11-03 13:40|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-11-03 13:40|| Front Page Top

#46 It may be time to recycle an old WWII joke: Why are the streets in Paris lined with trees? Because the Germans Islamonauts like to march riot in the shade.
Posted by ackoopmed 2005-11-03 14:18||   2005-11-03 14:18|| Front Page Top

#47 Oh, and LH. On the matter of "no Islamist slogans", read comment #12:

The RBers who spoofed the paleostinian intifada were right : the (muslim) "mediators", les grands frères (the big brothers), were greeted by the sweet melody of "allah U akbar"

Is there are more quintessential Islamist slogan than "Allah is greatest"?
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-11-03 14:39|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-11-03 14:39|| Front Page Top

#48 #17: This is just a taste of what is to come when a severe recession hits (in the next 12 months). Bankrupt European governments will cut welfare payments as revenues decline and the 'contract' of we will stay quiet as long you pay us ends. The social disorder will be something to behold.
Posted by: phil_b|| 2005-11-03 07:19

Unfortunately Phil, under the circumstances you have described, it could happen right here in the big PX. New Orleans (a former French outpost) was a tasteless hor d'vour. Lawless anarchy knows no bounds.
Posted by Besoeker 2005-11-03 14:42||   2005-11-03 14:42|| Front Page Top

#49 A couple of companies of paras stalking the streets and exterminating all resistance sounds about right. Show the kiddies what the war they're so hot for actually looks like when it comes for YOU.
Posted by mojo">mojo  2005-11-03 15:17||   2005-11-03 15:17|| Front Page Top

#50 The French need to rediscover the trusty old slingshot. Hit a few of these "angry yoots" in the head, in the arm, or in the face with some of those large European chestnuts, and they'll very quickly realize that this is no longer fun. The effective range is about 40 yards. The worst that could happen is that someone could lose an eye, but with chestnuts, that's unlikely (marbles or ball bearings, on the other hand, are far more deadly - I speak from experience). They would probably badly bruise those they hit, making it easier to round up the hotheads the next day or so. With a bit of training, you can whap someone on the ear hard enough they'll decide continuing to riot is too much trouble. Sometimes low-intensity weapons are more effective than the alternatives.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2005-11-03 15:18|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2005-11-03 15:18|| Front Page Top

#51 "And you know this, how, exactly?"

Ah, I ran out of question marks. Like with most such notes, I welcome correction.


Now you say someone shouted Allahu Akbar? Ok, theres a start. Do we have a citation? Did they go beyond it to a specifically political slogan? Was the phrase Allahu Akbar on a sign, or just shouted? In unison, or by individuals.

The English language MSM is not just covering this poorly, theyre not covering it much at all (in fairness most Americans dont care what happens in France, nobodys died during the riots - note in LA post Rodney King we had like 50 deaths in the same time frame - and there are no good bars in the banlieues, so why would any good reporter leave central Paris?) I was hoping to get some more INFO from RB.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 15:30||   2005-11-03 15:30|| Front Page Top

#52 "Things are all right in America!"

"If you can fight in America!"
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 15:44||   2005-11-03 15:44|| Front Page Top

#53 RC

From Belmont Club

"More reading has made me more familiar with the purely 'social' aspects of the Parisian rioting, i.e. hidden French racism, the failure of its economy to efficiently create jobs, etc. Juan Cole, for example, sees events in Paris as a simple "race riot". Others see it as the consequence of the French social model. From that point of view, the "Islamic" aspects are purely coincidental or of minor importance in comparison to the 'real' causes.

One argument for derogating the Islamic factor has been the absence, so far, of any direct link to terrorist masterminds. It could be counter-argued that Islam figures more broadly by fostering a sense of apartness or entitlement, etc. which then provokes the resented discrimination. I'll leave these caveats as they are for the readers to think about, although I am personally unpersuaded that Islamic cultural factors are irrelevant to the disturbances in France."

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 15:46||   2005-11-03 15:46|| Front Page Top

#54 Muslim leaders at Clichy-sous-Bois' mosque, meanwhile, prayed for peace and asked parents to keep teenagers off the streets after skirmishes broke out after two teenage boys were electrocuted last Thursday while hiding in a power substation because they believed police were chasing them.

Uh, didn't I read somewhere's else that cops were chasing these 2 yoots? Because they'd just robbed a local store, and while fleeing the coppers, they hopped a fence into an electrical substation! Think that was Reuters or somewhere else today. It's just a shame they didn't fall into one of France's nuke plants and burn to death (although, electrical burns are just as bad, I imagine). And, my final rant...I'm SICK & TIRED of this whole "disaffected, unemployed, poor Mooselimbs" tripe. Enough already! Only other city that's erupted in chaos lately is New Orleans...ironic that it's a former French outpost too, eh?
Posted by BA 2005-11-03 15:46||   2005-11-03 15:46|| Front Page Top

#55 That was simply on teevee, "mediators", some in djellaba (or some kind of white robe), greeted by onlookers who shout them quite audible "allah u akbar" from the windows (probably hindoos), though that was only in the "noise background" and the reportage wasn't focused on that.

I don't know if there is a djihadist per se undertone in theses riots, but they certainly are steemed by a "muslim" identity, for lack of better words; not all the rioters are arabs, there is a large proportion of african blacks and certainly an handful of whiteys, but they all hail from a counterculture which includes "gangsta" elements, but draws heavily on islam, as opposed to the "french" identity.

All I can tell you is there is a revolt brewing in there since a decade or so, this is actually an overall "minor" upsurge (the fact that it gets international coverage is the exceptional thing). This will end in a few time. Then, the authorities will appease even more, send more money, delegate the muslim notables to handle theses restless "youths", share power with them (affirmative action),... This is the way.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash8.htm
Rioting in French suburbs 'well organized'
Thu Nov 03 2005 14:56:34 ET

French Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said Thursday that the riots in several Paris suburbs over the previous night were "not spontaneous" but rather "well organized."

"What we saw in the department of Seine-Saint-Denis overnight was not spontaneous, it was perfectly organized. We are looking into by whom and how," Sarkozy told French news channel i-tele.

The interior minister also said the government would not allow "troublemakers, a bunch of hoodlums, think they can do whatever they want" in the country.

A force of 1,000 police were assigned late Thursday to Seine-Saint-Denis, following the previous night of violence which affected about half of the 40 towns in the department, mostly communities of immigrants from Africa, officials said.

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2005/11/
french-media-heads-we-win-tails-you.html
French media : heads we win, tails you lose
posted by U*2 @ 11:31 AM (NB = "W", from Merde in France)

Portions of French media are being overrun by true public sentiment (just as the Establishment was overrun by popular ire during the referendum on the European Constitution). Talk radio and web forums are coming down squarely in favor of Interior Minister Sarkozy with calls for a heavy hand when dealing with rioters. The French preSS is having none of this. Libération PropagandaStaffel and Le Monde Al-Jazeera on the Seine are dripping with compassion for humiliated French youth. On the TF1 - LCI news site, flagrant censorship in the face of dissenting opinions is barely concealed behind a statement asking readers to be patient because the web forum is overloaded and cannot take anymore comments. Rather than accept any further comments in favor of law and order (running 10-1 against the rioters before the shutdown), they prefer to close the forum:
Chers lecteurs, depuis le début des violences en banlieue, vous êtes excessivement nombreux à réagir sur notre site infos. Nous vous en remercions. Mais compte tenu du nombre de réactions envoyées, il est devenu impossible de les publier avec toute la rigueur, l'objectivité et la réactivité qui caractérisent un forum de qualité. Nous sommes donc contraints de suspendre momentanément la publication des avis sur ce sujet hautement sensible. Nous vous remercions de votre compréhension et de votre fidélité.

http://no-pasaran.blogspot.com/2005/11/
more-media-censorship-on-way.html
More media censorship on the way
posted by U*2 @ 1:17 PM

French cable TV news channel i-tele is openly considering showing fewer images and less video footage of the riots claiming that such coverage might be fanning the flames. The fact is that they do not want to continue showing what the French citizenry is really like in these battling suburbs. The last two days have given free reign to images of violent vulgarity spouting youths, vowing vengeance on French society, along with a new media figure -- the djellaba garbed neighborhood mediators who claim they will not deal with Sarkozy.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-03 15:50||   2005-11-03 15:50|| Front Page Top

#56 LH, as much as I respect Belmont Club, the involvement of "terrorist masterminds" is not necessary for an event to be related to Islamism. The Beltway shooters, for example, have never been tied to any Islamic masterminds, but clearly expressed Islamist sympathies. Ditto the LAX shooter.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-11-03 16:23|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-11-03 16:23|| Front Page Top

#57 I might add that in fact this is peanut (easy for me to say), the important stuff happens in Iraq or soon in Iran... and this is but a symptom of a larger disease that includes other elements, both french (statism, socialism, radicalized and unrepresentative unions, no social mobility, la pensée unique, dead-end elites, decline felt and actual,...) and common to the West (multiculturalism, eroding of traditional values,...).
France is in deep trouble, this is only one aspect, one identitary aspect, there are many others (cultural, political, demographical, economical,...). Think 70's US malaise, without any end on sight.

Compared to the LA riots, this is a mere child's play, but I do not agree to LH social explanation; there IS a social background, I have no doubt about it, I fully agree, but there also truly is a clash of identities, one muslim identity vs a "french" one. I'm sorry, but I'm 100% persuaded that islam is a big factor here. It's not Al Qaida and Ben Laden pulling the strings, it's more like an amorphous "cultural jihad" feeding on resentment, post-colonial hatred (big factor too), cultural habits,... with "self-conscious" pseudopods (all the muslim orgs, charities, imams,...) acting as a central nervous system, and with street thugs as foot soliders whenever there is aneed for applying pressure.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-11-03 16:29||   2005-11-03 16:29|| Front Page Top

#58 It's liberalhawk's personal quest to be the one who always cheers for the underdog.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 16:31||   2005-11-03 16:31|| Front Page Top

#59 The police are there to preserve disorder.
Posted by anonymous2u 2005-11-03 16:57||   2005-11-03 16:57|| Front Page Top

#60 Too true 2b. On the other hand, LH is the only liberal in the blogosphere willing to hang out with us! His polite and insightful comments are always welcome, as far as I am concerned. LH is never rude.
Posted by Secret Master 2005-11-03 17:14||   2005-11-03 17:14|| Front Page Top

#61 "LH, as much as I respect Belmont Club, the involvement of "terrorist masterminds" is not necessary for an event to be related to Islamism. The Beltway shooters, for example, have never been tied to any Islamic masterminds, but clearly expressed Islamist sympathies. Ditto the LAX shooter."

Sure, thats true. I was just thinking if there was any overtly islamist content to this BC would have info on it.

My take, at this point - this is the fruit of A. Poverty and unemployment - the fault of French etatisme, as much as anything else. B. A PC victim mentality on the part of the immigrants - mentality that seems to be shared by non-muslims among them, but perhaps worse among the muslims C. Actual racism among the French D. The police being too willing to concede the streets, and allowing the gangs to gain a sense of ownership.


Now C makes me sound lefty, and B and D righty and A kinda both (poverty causes violence, but socialism of the French variety can cause poverty) so i guess y'all will say im being too damned subtle or something - so what - life is complex that way. I guess some folks will think Im lefty cause Im not saying this is all about Islam. Im not excluding that possibility - the troubles in Denmark, for ex, DID seem to be all about Islam. I just want evidence, is all.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 17:21||   2005-11-03 17:21|| Front Page Top

#62 "On the other hand, LH is the only liberal in the blogosphere willing to hang out with us!"

Thats mainly cause Im not really all that liberal - Im really about dead center for the US electorate - just some of you guys have been in the echo chamber so long, you think im some kind of lefty.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-11-03 17:28||   2005-11-03 17:28|| Front Page Top

#63 I can't help but admire LH's unending wealth of optimism and there is nothing wrong with cheering for the underdog - as long as you aren't placing bets.

Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 17:30||   2005-11-03 17:30|| Front Page Top

#64 You're no lefty, you're a full blown, stalin loving, card carrying, commie pinko. /facetious
Posted by Omeart Glereth8800 2005-11-03 17:49||   2005-11-03 17:49|| Front Page Top

#65 One would think since these are muslims I would say it is about Islam.

Islam seems to have no sense of self control. Islam has no self critisim (it abides none what so ever.) Islam is insular, find Muslims and you will find self segregation.

All the typical leftist and socialist memes are easy to overcome if you look a reality and are actually interested in it.
Posted by Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2005-11-03 17:51||   2005-11-03 17:51|| Front Page Top

#66 "Thats mainly cause Im not really all that liberal - Im really about dead center for the US electorate - just some of you guys have been in the echo chamber so long, you think im some kind of lefty."

ROFLMAO!

I'm mainstream, LOL. That's what everybody says. Oh yeah, if you say so then it must be so. Please, keep them coming, lol. :)
Posted by Floluth Slereting3261 2005-11-03 17:51||   2005-11-03 17:51|| Front Page Top

#67 Robert Crawford wrote:

LH, as much as I respect Belmont Club, the involvement of "terrorist masterminds" is not necessary for an event to be related to Islamism. The Beltway shooters, for example, have never been tied to any Islamic masterminds, but clearly expressed Islamist sympathies. Ditto the LAX shooter.

AND... neither of them really did that much damage, at least compared to the sorts of guys overseas who did have contacts with more organized groups and cells, like the Madrid bombers or the London Underground bombers.
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 17:52||   2005-11-03 17:52|| Front Page Top

#68 LH: I disagree with you that this is being caused strictly by poverty, but I also disagree that the problems are strictly caused by socialism per se; I think there are also other factors involved in many European countries' failures to assimilate their immigrant populations.

(IF you could blame it on that. (Although I disagree with him on a lot, Howard Bloom has made the point in the past that the _parents_ of these kids doing this have often moved to the west to get AWAY from the sort of society the kids are rioting on behalf of). I don't pretend to understand the answer to the question of why Europe seems so bad at integration of their immigrants into mainstream society, but I think it's an important question.)

I also think Islam isn't quite as big a problem as they're saying here. Some of the immigrants are no doubt from Turkey, for instance, but despite being a majority moslem (albeit nominally secular) nation Turkey AFAIK doesn't tolerate behavior such as is being shown here no matter whose party was in power.

I do have some partial hunches:

I think part of what separates "Islam The Religion of Peace" from "Islam the Religion of Pieces" is a strong trend of millenialism in the latter, and Europe's last two natively-developed fanatical belief systems, Marxism and Naziism, had (or have) strong millenialist trends too, as well as a recurring belief that dictatorial revolution should be waged when possible in support of their respective ideologies.

I also have strong suspicions that the trend in Europe away from more traditional forms of religion have actually made things worse. They have created a false dichotomy, that one's moral choices are between a tolerance dependent on absolute moral relativism, or the salafism that's being preached in the Mosques, with no middle ground.

(There's an interesting thread along those lines in many of Neal Stephenson's books, in particular the novel _Snow Crash_ and the nonfiction _In The Beginning Was The Command Line_. They're both on the fanaticism-reading-list I'm going to assemble one of these days...)

That's all for now, I probably won't have time to comment later.

(Heck, you should read _Snow Crash_ just because it's so good...)

Anyway, I gotta go.
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 18:23||   2005-11-03 18:23|| Front Page Top

#69 Phil, how did you get that out of Snow Crash? Please enlighten me.
Posted by Secret Master 2005-11-03 18:35||   2005-11-03 18:35|| Front Page Top

#70 Phil, how did you get that out of Snow Crash? Please enlighten me.

I didn't get all of it from _SC_. But look closely at both the Librarian's and Juanita's comments on the nature of the virus ("So is this a disease, a computer virus, or a religion?" "What's the difference?") and Juanita's belief that exposure to certain religions could actually innoculate people against the more dangerous ones.

And I'll quote some of the relevant bits from ITBWTCL:

The lesson most people are taking home from the Twentieth Century is that, in order for a large number of different cultures to coexist peacefully on the globe (or even in a neighborhood) it is necessary for people to suspend judgment in this way. Hence (I would argue) our suspicion of, and hostility towards, all authority figures in modern culture. As David Foster Wallace has explained in his essay "E Unibus Pluram," this is the fundamental message of television; it is the message that people take home, anyway, after they have steeped in our media long enough. It's not expressed in these highfalutin terms, of course. It comes through as the presumption that all authority figures--teachers, generals, cops, ministers, politicians--are hypocritical buffoons, and that hip jaded coolness is the only way to be.

The problem is that once you have done away with the ability to make judgments as to right and wrong, true and false, etc., there's no real culture left. All that remains is clog dancing and macrame. The ability to make judgments, to believe things, is the entire it point of having a culture. I think this is why guys with machine guns sometimes pop up in places like Luxor, and begin pumping bullets into Westerners. They perfectly understand the lesson of McCoy Air Force Base. When their sons come home wearing Chicago Bulls caps with the bills turned sideways, the dads go out of their minds.

The global anti-culture that has been conveyed into every cranny of the world by television is a culture unto itself, and by the standards of great and ancient cultures like Islam and France, it seems grossly inferior, at least at first. The only good thing you can say about it is that it makes world wars and Holocausts less likely--and that is actually a pretty good thing!

The only real problem is that anyone who has no culture, other than this global monoculture, is completely screwed. Anyone who grows up watching TV, never sees any religion or philosophy, is raised in an atmosphere of moral relativism, learns about civics from watching bimbo eruptions on network TV news, and attends a university where postmodernists vie to outdo each other in demolishing traditional notions of truth and quality, is going to come out into the world as one pretty feckless human being. And--again--perhaps the goal of all this is to make us feckless so we won't nuke each other.

On the other hand, if you are raised within some specific culture, you end up with a basic set of tools that you can use to think about and understand the world. You might use those tools to reject the culture you were raised in, but at least you've got some tools.

In this country, the people who run things--who populate major law firms and corporate boards--understand all of this at some level. They pay lip service to multiculturalism and diversity and non-judgmentalness, but they don't raise their own children that way. I have highly educated, technically sophisticated friends who have moved to small towns in Iowa to live and raise their children, and there are Hasidic Jewish enclaves in New York where large numbers of kids are being brought up according to traditional beliefs. Any suburban community might be thought of as a place where people who hold certain (mostly implicit) beliefs go to live among others who think the same way.

And not only do these people feel some responsibility to their own children, but to the country as a whole. Some of the upper class are vile and cynical, of course, but many spend at least part of their time fretting about what direction the country is going in, and what responsibilities they have. And so issues that are important to book-reading intellectuals, such as global environmental collapse, eventually percolate through the porous buffer of mass culture and show up as ancient Hindu ruins in Orlando.


Anyway, I suggest reading the whole thing; there's still some context missing from the above. I'm too busy to pick out enough quotes to provide perfect context, and you can find the whole shebang here.

Please note, he wrote it before 9/11.
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 18:49||   2005-11-03 18:49|| Front Page Top

#71 It is my belief that the Global Anti-Culture pretends to exalt tolerance but is actually self-destructive of tolerance. At some point you have to have someone saying that killing your next door neighbor because he's Christian/Muslim/Jewish/Whatever is _morally wrong_ in the same sort of way that the salafists are saying that the riots and suicide bombers are morally right.
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 18:52||   2005-11-03 18:52|| Front Page Top

#72 So, Phil, you are saying that these kids rioting outside of Paris are the victims of a sociorganically grown popular “virus” culture that humanity has instinctually produced as a sort of antibody designed to prevent global catastrophes from occurring? A kind of anti-culture that, while is allows for globalization and a certain level of peace, also provides no nourishment for the soul thus leading them down an inadvertent path toward religious fanaticism?

Well, I don’t know about that. Having read all of Stephenson’s fiction (except for Zodiac), I must say that the man’s great love of pure ideas often leads him to inadvertent sophistry. It IS reassuring, however, to know that I can still reason like an over-caffeinated undergraduate student!
Posted by Secret Master 2005-11-03 19:16||   2005-11-03 19:16|| Front Page Top

#73 No. Their teachers are either adherents of the g-a-c or marxists, and while they may be neither it makes them particularly vulnerable to millenialist fanatic belief systems, whether they're marxist, christian, or whatever...
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 19:23||   2005-11-03 19:23|| Front Page Top

#74 I always enjoy watching those who don't have a personal grasp of religion try to explain it away with hip jaded coolness.

There is a reason why so many people embrace religion....and it's not due to a desire to belong - though for many that may be the case - but for most who truly grasp it, it is a desire to improve oneself by looking inward. The problem with the Muslim religion is that it doesn't focus on inward reflection, but shame and blame. And though they get many of the benefits of belonging to something bigger than themselves, they are forced to find an "other" to blame.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 19:30||   2005-11-03 19:30|| Front Page Top

#75 I was not trying to explain religion away, and I don't think Stephenson was either. (And I really have to go now.)
Posted by Phil 2005-11-03 19:33||   2005-11-03 19:33|| Front Page Top

#76 Lets not lose sight of the fact that these people came as a result of government action and inaction. They could have been stopped at any time and even now could be relatively painlessly bribed to leave.

The problem is not specifically that they are muslim, or a racial minority, or poor, or even unassimilated. The problem at root is they are in France in the first place. The reality is that large numbers of people came into France that almost nobody wants and if anybody speaks out about it they are labelled a facist/racist.

The unassimilated and growing minorities in Europe are the consequence of PC driven wishful thinking that one day we will have a rainbow future where we link arms and sing Kumbyeyar(sp).

I long ago concluded that only some social catastrophe will end this nonsense. The open questions are how long it will take and how bad it will be when it happens.
Posted by phil_b 2005-11-03 19:33||   2005-11-03 19:33|| Front Page Top

#77 I really didn't mean you, and not having read Stephenson, I'll bow out. But too often I see religion explained as a misguided venture into fantasy or fanaticism which I think is simply a lack of understanding.

It's an interesting discussion and I didn't mean to imply disagreement.
Posted by 2b 2005-11-03 19:40||   2005-11-03 19:40|| Front Page Top

#78 how about this: "you immigrants came here to make a better life. You haven't. Instead you accept welfare, create no-go neighborhoods for the recognized law and order and life-safety members. Now it's all over. Time to collect your meager belongings and get the F*&k out. Molotov and rock throwers will be shot on sight. Mosques preaching hate and anti- gov't violence will be torn down. We will enforce a dusk to dawn curfew with deadly force for groups and individuals will be required to submiot to search and have a valid reason for travel"
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-11-03 20:26||   2005-11-03 20:26|| Front Page Top

#79 BTW: via Roger L Simon - an American student shares his experiences (including the fact that the common French are not our enemy)

"He also writes this about the current situation:

The government has quietly put a lot of AK-47-toting soldiers on patrol in Paris, especially around key public transportation points and at the monuments and high-traffic areas such as Forum des Halles. I think there are three reasons for this - 1) to reassure the public - and the tourists, 2) to take some pressure off the Police Nationale, who have been deployed in greater numbers to the north-eastern suburbs and 3) to send a message to would be trouble-makers.

The French have the reputation of being wimps, but in my experience, when they crack down, they crack down HARD"
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-11-03 20:28||   2005-11-03 20:28|| Front Page Top

#80 Is the AK-47 the new Euro Rapid Deployment force weapon of choice?
Posted by Ebbesh Ulaick6311 2005-11-03 21:22||   2005-11-03 21:22|| Front Page Top

#81 If I was the French - I would dose the area with BZ for a week with a cordon around the areas ... then come in a 5 days later with an occupying force.

Oh have lots of UAVs and cameras set up and broadcast the whole insurrection live on TV.

Record all the rapes and murders to play back later after every interview with the mullahs.

Posted by 3dc 2005-11-03 21:28||   2005-11-03 21:28|| Front Page Top

#82 A beautiful statement, Frank G.
Posted by trailing wife 2005-11-03 22:06||   2005-11-03 22:06|| Front Page Top

#83 AK-47 = any military gun to the gun clueless. If it's the French it some retarded looking bullpup I would bet.
Posted by Sock Puppet O´ Doom 2005-11-03 23:01||   2005-11-03 23:01|| Front Page Top

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