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2004-09-29 Afghanistan/South Asia

'Pakistan unequipped to be modern state'

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Posted by 2004-09-29 7:23:32 PM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 You'll note a reoccuring theme among leftist collectives like the Brookings Institute. Condescending racism. It goes very far back, philosophically, and represents the desire to find somebody they can feel superior to. They also have a deep and abiding hatred of those who prove that they are neither inferior, nor wish to be lorded over by neurotic leftists. The list includes African-American slaves, Native Americans, and now any darker skinned peoples who live under the heel of tyrants. How long ago was it that they were saying that Arabs are "incapable" of appreciating or living in a democracy? Now that the Iraqis are clamoring for democracy, it must be the Pakistanis who are "inferior". Next the Bangladeshis? Or will they move south to Africa? It seems in their minds that democracy *destroys* the primitivism and misery that leftists love to see in others.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-09-29 8:33:59 PM|| 2004-09-29 8:33:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Mr anonyomous it has destroyed Pakistan. All the major fuck ups occured in the democratic times. The reason is simple feudalism, when you have feudal lords having such a grip over 70% of the country that no one can vote against them and they have armed people in pooling booths to ensure that, where is democracy. The poor man has nowhere to go. Observe the GDP and the Exchange rate of Pak Rupee over the last 20 years and just check who was in power you will see a clear trend there. The growing problem is that a large number of these feudals have turned to religious extremism to keep their people in control and to keep the government out of their affairs.
In a country where 95% people cannot read or write in even in their native language, the only source of influence is their feudal lord or the Mullah in friday prayers. A military dictator is better in the sence that he has a whole Army backing him, which is largely free of the fear of the feudals and enjoy a previlaged status. It was Ayub Dictator ship which lead Pakistan to its industrialization and early capitalist system in 60s when the people where turning commies left and right. The democracy in 70s by bhutto sent PAF fighter pilots to 1973 Nazi-Israel war and nationalized every industry and almost made Pakistan into a communist state. He is also known as the father of the Islamic Nuclear program. Close friends with Gaddafi and Hafiz El Asad. The Zia Dictator ship was instrumental in kicking Russia out of Afghanistan (which came there in the knowledge that the previous bhutto "democracy" is favourable to it. The Nawaz democracy championed the Taliban friendly approcah and brought a huge ammount of religious extremism to play. Not to mention the Kargil fiasco. Now it is the Musharraf Dictator chip which is keeping the country from slipping into a complete religious chaos. Dont forget that the MMA (religious nut coalition) has been able to form government in 2 provinces and is the largest opposition party. It is being supported by Nawaz (whhabi bastard) group and PPP (commie bastards).
Before opening your mouth you should know what the fuck you are talking about. It is not the tone I acquire most of the times I know right now the only people who are shouting for democracy in Pakistan are Religoius nuts if you dont believe me go to www.dawn.com (largest English Daily) or www.janggroup.com.pk and then click on The News.

Posted by Fawad 2004-09-29 8:54:25 PM|| 2004-09-29 8:54:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 End the Madrassahs, teach the people something they can use besides rote memorization of the Koran, and Pakland could (I repeat, could) become another India. Let the Turbans get in charge and it will be Taliban South

Posted by Frank G 2004-09-29 9:01:14 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:01:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 I agree, it is a long way to go before democracy can even be thought about. First it was the communist bastards in the Universsities now it is the religious nuts both in Universities and Madresas, and that segment is growing. The economy has to be strong and the people have to see that working like crazy brings luxuries, and sitting in a Madresa brings a JDAM but that is at least 15-20 years in future.

Posted by Fawad 2004-09-29 9:04:59 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:04:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 the little brown folk just can't handle it.

Posted by 2b 2004-09-29 9:10:15 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:10:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Little Brown Muslim folks cannot, India is handling it preety OK. And they are little and brown too.

Posted by Fawad 2004-09-29 9:12:34 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:12:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Clean up in Aisle 5.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-09-29 9:17:04 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:17:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Mrs. D - I was just being snarky.

It's not that you don't make good points - Fawad, because you do. I just think you are being too pessimistic. If they can't handle it cold turkey, then let's look to the future rather than writing them off.

The Indonesians were able to handle it until the spoilers came in.

Posted by 2b 2004-09-29 9:26:39 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Overhauling of the social structure to eliminate Feudalism. Transfer of an economy which has 70% employment in Agriculture to an industrial based economy. And the Cultral transformation to make the young ones chase skirts in Bars rather than blow themselves up for the 72 virgins is too much. The bad part is that things have been moving backward for the last 10 years instead of forward. Hence the pessimism.

Posted by Fawad 2004-09-29 9:32:03 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:32:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 You make valid points.

A generation is only 40 years. I agree the problem is the madrassas - which teach them to move backwards. If that could be changed - they'd see positive change within our lifetime.

If you don't think it CAN happen, it won't.

Posted by 2b 2004-09-29 9:38:18 PM|| 2004-09-29 9:38:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Fawad: I can't be as pessimistic about Pakistan as you are, for the simple fact that the problems you cite often cease to be problems when real democracy comes into play. Much of the brutality, the horror, come from pre-democratic systems that are still in play: tribal systems, religious authorities, corruption and anti-democratic political theories. These are not *caused* by democracy, they are its enemies. Compare what has happened to Pakistan with what has happened to an equally subdivided nation, South Africa. Most pundits expected SA to fall into ruin, chaos, and civil war, and are frankly amazed that it didn't--that it had a peaceful transition to democracy *despite* being filled with anti-democratic institutions. So what was the difference? A number of individuals, people of education and goodwill, who understood democracy and were uncompromising about creating it. A relatively small core group of democrats in South Africa *forced* a peaceful transition, by insisting on creating an honest framework for transition of power. And every new person who learned what true democracy *is* becomes a powerful ally to their cause. And though it will take years, slowly "alternative" institutions will fade away, supplanted by democratic institutions.
So what is the democratic alternative for Pakistan? It begins with the creation of a core group of real democrats. People who have seen and learned about democracy from *other* countries. Who optimistically hope that they and other like minded people can *refuse* what degrades the government and people of Pakistan. That they can, even just personally, *refuse* to be corrupted in their office; *refuse* to compromise their core values; and *refuse* to retreat from liberty. Now, these may sound like bold or idealistic goals, and they are, but democracy *is* an idealistic revolution. The most successful revolution to ever exist on the planet. Nation after nation has fallen to its philosophy, in many different forms, but still the same basic concept. It may be an irresistable force, a true global conspiracy. Every democrat can create a hundred more democrats just by telling them the big secret. By letting them know that other people do it, *and it works*.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-09-29 10:05:30 PM|| 2004-09-29 10:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 What do you do in a situation where the people choose "Communism" (Bhutto Democracy), "Nationalization" (Bhutto Part II 1990), Islamic Extremism (Nawaz Part 1 & II). Even if Free and Fair elections are held today, we will have the same problem as in Aljeria. You will have a democratic Islamic Theocracy.

The mindset of that society has to change. The people there cannot change in a day, as 2b says a generation lasts 40 years, provided we start working on the next one now.

I had the misfortune of being stuck there for 5 yerars on a Power Generation Project supposed to last only 1. I saw the post Zia Democracy and the corruption it brought. We paid so much in bribes, it was not even funny any more. Come Musharraf, and a Colonel is appointed from EME, he carries out a thoruogh professional evaluation of our work, signs the approval refuses even our offer to take him out to dinner ( he saw it as bribery) and off we are full payment and back to USA.
This is just a simple Thermal Co-Gen Project we are talking about. I felt the change in environment instantly the day Musharraf came to power, our local employees were not harrassed any more by Nawaz Goons, We faced no problems in closing the project and Handing over which appeared to be impossible in "Democracy".

I respect your sentiments but you have to see that mad house sometime to form the bridge between beautiful words and actual "action Items". As we say we dont even have a rough sketch, the materials guy hasnt even dreamed up a material and we never saw the fabrication needed in even a Sci-Fi movie.
Give it 40 years.

Posted by Fawad 2004-09-29 10:31:21 PM|| 2004-09-29 10:31:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Anonymoose, ". Most pundits expected SA to fall into ruin, chaos, and civil war, and are frankly amazed that it didn't--that it had a peaceful transition to democracy *despite* being filled with anti-democratic institutions."

This is what the international media wanted everyone to believe and everyone now believes it.

* The transition to democracy was in fact wracked with horrendous violence.
* During the last ten years or more, on average one white farmer has been murdered every three days in an ongoing attempt by blacks to take the land by force. It makes Zimbzbwe's statistics seem mild.
* Have a look at how many whites occupy significant positions within the black, Xhosa-dominated government.
* Try to get a job as a white South African.
* SA has the highest rape rate in the world and the highest murder rate, with the exception of Columbia - which is basically in a state of civil war.
* For two weeks after the April 1994 election ushered Nelson Mandela into power, most of the nation was in a state of peaceful euphoria. Then the violence began anew.

I know. I was there.

Posted by Bryan 2004-09-29 11:18:28 PM|| 2004-09-29 11:18:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 And how do you know that Colonel wasn't a democrat? Don't confuse being "soft" with being one. Some of the strongest advocates for real democracy are unbelievably hard-assed, even fearsome: if you get in their way they will kill you. And this is true throughout its history. One of its strongest selling points is that it is *better*, that is, more "efficient", than the systems it replaces. Tribalism, racism, sexism, corruption, religious authority, all are inefficient. They get in the way to economic development. Mafias and organized crime thrive only in poverty in much the same way: success is their enemy, as is education and homogeneous society. So what is left for the anti-democratic institutions to do? They try to subvert democracy, to twist it to their advantage. And for a time, they may have some measure of success. But as a different example, look at India: fighting since its inception as a free nation to stay democratic. Dozens of factions, castes, languages, sensibilities, etc., all duking it out in a democratic chaos. Its will be a long and painful evolution, and it is still far better off than many other "democratic" nations. I say "democratic", even though they aren't, because they must *claim* to be democratic or else fear the attentions of the democrats of the world, the revolutionaries who actively hunt and seek to undermine undemocratic regimes. And this is a concern in Pakistan, too. Forces in Pakistan that are "undemocratic", or are perceived as "anti-democratic", are in the sights of powerful people *outside* of Pakistan, for utter destruction. Not people, but institutions, are seen as "the enemy", whether they know it or not. And democrats are peculiarly tenacious in seeking out, undermining and destroying their enemies.

Posted by Anonymoose 2004-09-29 11:36:20 PM|| 2004-09-29 11:36:20 PM|| Front Page Top

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