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2003-09-19 Europe

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Posted by Bulldog 2003-09-19 2:09:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Democracy EU style: "Democracy is far too important to be let to the elector"

Here are a few examples:

In 1992 there was a referendum in France about the adoption of the euro. The electoral campaign was completely lopsided with journalists massively supporting the euro at TV or papers,
making remarks about how wonderful would be a
united europe ("If Europe had been united it would have got more olympic medals than the US". The fact is that a united europe would have had only only have two athletes per discipline), a completely unbalanced 'speaking time' for politicians in the yes or no side, apocaliptic
forecasts about what would happen if the NO
won (BTW the euro was supposed to create millions
of jobs, still waiting) and last but not least a tax-payer funded advertisemnt campaign for the YES. Despite this, despite the general feeling that the governing parties would find a way to force the issue even if the NO was to win, despite the shameful way the Alsatian vote was bought (this could have made the difference) there were still 49.5% people to vote NO.

But the Eurolatric side had learned his lesson so the next step, Amsterdam treaty, wouldn't face referendum. What was Amsterdam treaty: making every law or regulation (regulations taken by mere bureaucrats) superior to the Constitution. In other words it voided the Constitution. The French constitution was adopted by referendum in 1962 and it was well made clear by its creator, General de Gaulle, that "la voie parlementaire c'est pour les reformettes" ("the parlementay road is only for minor reforms"). And here we had the parlementary way being used for a reform who gave power to any unelected bureaucrat in Brussels to void the constitution. Your democracy at work.

Now a politician who no longer would be elected in his own village, Valery Giscard d'Estaing, has
written a constitution for us the poor citizens living in darkness, far away from that beacon of light named Brussels. Guess what? The Europeist side is telling that a referendum is unsuitable, that it would be far better to use the parliamentary road.

This was about the deep links between the EU and Fascism.

Posted by JFM 2003-9-19 4:34:45 AM|| 2003-9-19 4:34:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Blair's only hope of getting the constitution ratified by the UK now is directly through a vote in parliament, and that's only feasible if he can reduce the power of the constitution, as it has been drafted, by negotiation. If Blair fails to gain significant concessions throught negotiation, it will be politically for him to avoid putting it to a referendum, which will almost certainly result in rejection. We are approaching a major watershed in the development of the EU.

JFM, the 1992 referendum was over the Maastricht Treaty, wasn't it? Ratification of that gave the French Government the power to adopt the euro and ditch the Franc, but it was not a referendum specifically concerning the adoption of the euro. Or were there separate referendum questions? (Given the federasts' disdain for the democratic process I doubt whether the voters were given the option of voting on separate Maastricht topics during their time in the polling booths.) Britain obtained an opt-out, as did Denmark after the voters rejected Maastricht first time round. No country has yet voted to adopt the euro directly, through a referendum.

BTW, Weren't there accusations of other "irregularities" associated with the 1992 French referendum?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-9-19 5:09:45 AM|| 2003-9-19 5:09:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Bulldog

You are right it wasn't a referendum about the
Franc but about the Maastricht treaty as a whole.
However this topic was at the center of the campaign: whether France
would drop an attribute of sovereignty as important as the right to have her own money.

I don't remember accusations of "iregularities" about 1992's referendum except for the fact that the half of France who was against Maastricht saw its taxes used in the advertising campaign for the YES vote.
No accusations of irregularities doesn't mean they weren't any: the people who had advocated for the NO were not the leaders of governmental parties (ie those who are in governemnt or in position to reah it) and they had to mend bridges with party leaders or risk political death. That is why they would think twice before pointing at irregularities. Not to mention that journalists
had been so partial toward the Euro that it was dubious they would report on irregularities.

As I said the Alsatian vote was bought even if
technically it was not an irregularity. The
division of EU institutions between Brussels and
Strasbourg costs a LOT of money and is disliked by euro-deputies who every month have to move
(them and their archives) to one city and back. So there were proposals to abandon Strasbourg and put all institutions in Brussels. The fact is that during the campaign at the precise moment the polls showed the NO side had passed the YES, it was announced the Parliament would stay in
Strasbourg "for now". That meant jobs and prestige for Strasbourg and Alsace. 80% of Alsatians voted YES. Given how close it was we can think that the NO could have won without the 10 or 20% of Alsatian votes who were tilted by that, oh so opportune announce taking place during the campaign.

Next time you fill your income tax declaration
think in that part of your money who is being used for buying the Alsatian vote.

Posted by JFM 2003-9-19 6:43:34 AM|| 2003-9-19 6:43:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Bulldog,
In my book this Brown guy comes off as conservative. Is that an accurate assessment? I often create overly simplistic assumptions that fall apart in the face of fact. In the past I had built the following equivalences between EU/UK institutions and US ones:

A. Tory = Republican
B. Labor = Democrat
c. France with respect to EU = California with respect to the other 49 states
D. Greece with respect to EU = Florida with respect other 49 states

Please punch holes in these simplifications for fun at your leisure. Also what is with knocking off the smoking in pubs. I thought that Bloomberg's diaster was isolated to NY.

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-19 9:31:30 AM|| 2003-9-19 9:31:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 "Mr. Byrne...has made it a personal crusade in Brussels to cut smoking." Something's up, because this is a side of David Byrne we've never seen before. Is this not the man who said:

"Havin' sex and eatin' cereal
Wearin' jeans and cmokin' cigarettes now"

and

"Yeah - we smoke cigarettes
We dance with the dead"

His solo work certainly diverges from all this tranzi crap he's suddenly spouting.

Posted by (lowercase) matt 2003-9-19 10:25:47 AM|| 2003-9-19 10:25:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Super Hose> I'd compare France to Texas instead - both places seem to produce a lot of the most arrogant obnoxious types populating each union. :-)

As for Greece... If Cuba had turned democratic in the 1970s and applied to become one of the United States, that'd be the perfect comparison to Greece in relation to the EU. But now... well I'm afraid I don't know much about Florida's political attitudes in respect to the other 49 states so I'm afraid I can't much evaluate that assessment of yours...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-19 11:41:03 AM|| 2003-9-19 11:41:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 "I'd compare France to Texas instead"

Them thar is fight'n words!

Posted by Steve 2003-9-19 11:50:17 AM|| 2003-9-19 11:50:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Sort of OT:

I took Aris' suggestion and read Article 59. First problem out of the box, #1. Any member state may decide to withdraw from the EU in accordance w/its own constitutional requirements.

Have the nations altered their constitutions to fit this? We had a war.

#2, what guidelines has the European Council set out? I can't find the guidelines.

Set out the arrangements for withdrawal??? XXX plus 500% interest?

#3, Once the State has said goodbye, the constitution no longer applies. However, the constitution can be extended. So, one can leave and still get the benefits of the constititution while under negotiation to leave?

Another interpretation could be the negotiations on getting out will go for years, but the state can choose to either live or not live under the constitution.

P. 46 in my pdf format.

The constitution may cease to apply after 2 years, that doesn't mean the state is out.

Guess we won't know until someone tries.

And I'm neither male nor a boy, Aris.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-9-19 11:56:02 AM|| 2003-9-19 11:56:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Chirac and Schroder couldn't give any specifics of their spending plans because I suspect they don't have any plans.They want some favorable pr at a time when both are being hammered in press.

Fearless prediction-desperate for money to jump-start their economies,French and German workers at EU-ocracy are going to start proposing heavy fines on American business's for violating just created EU regulations and will send forth a wave of new regulations(w/heavy fines attached) for EU members in next few months.

Posted by Stephen 2003-9-19 12:16:35 PM|| 2003-9-19 12:16:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris,

Enjoyed the heated discussion on the Canadien activists yesterday.

Florida is a state that is full of internal divisions. Even the Hispanic vote includes Cuban Americans that vote conservatively and other Hispanics that vote more consistently with other Hispanic communities in America.

Counties in Florida routinely almost block vote Republican or Democrat except in Palm Beach where some of the older liberals have trouble reading the ballots and accidently vote ultra-conservative.

I think of Greece and Florida mostly because they jut out into the large bodies of warm water and as such are ocean trade. While other states are reducing spending, Florida is making an effort to establish trade with foriegn nations like Chile. That would work less well here in Indiana.

Florida has a very low tax rate and vibrant tourism industry (or used to, anyway.)

Florida's physical proximity to Cuba is an approximation to Greece's proximity to Turkey.

Have been to Corfu once and Souda Bay twice, so I may be reading mainland Greece wrong.

P.S. Florida is also governed by George Bush's younger brother. How does that sound :-) ?

Posted by Super Hose 2003-9-19 12:24:48 PM|| 2003-9-19 12:24:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Anonymous> Given the that you haven't chosen a nick, I hope you don't expect me to remember what previous discussion of ours you are referring to.

I don't bother trying to decipher whether the "Anonymous" people of one day are the same as the "Anonymous" people of another day, so you may have just as well started posting today where I'm concerned. In short - I really don't remember or understand what your comments about you not being a boy or a male refers to.

"Have the nations altered their constitutions to fit this?"

Most nations already have articles in their constitutions that concern their entering (or withdrawing from) treaties with other nations.

"What guidelines has the European Council set out?"

The article says this: "...the European Council shall examine that notification. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an
agreement with that State....", etc, etc.

I definitely get the impression it means that the European Council will provide guidelines of negotiation after examining said notification -- after all the reason for a withdrawal may differ from case to case, so the kind of negotiation needed will be different from case to case.

"Once the State has said goodbye, the constitution no longer applies. However, the constitution can be extended. So, one can leave and still get the benefits of the constititution while under negotiation to leave?"

I don't know what you are talking about. I think you are confusing the notification of departure with the actual departure from the union.

The country gives a notification it wants to leave. By mutual agreement with the rest of the union (aka negotiation) the time it will leave or the terms of its departure can be arranged --- if no agreement is reached, then two years after the notification the constitution nonetheless ceases to apply.

"This Constitution shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, decides to extend this period."

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-19 4:35:50 PM|| 2003-9-19 4:35:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 This is actually true for the Constitution. But not for the Euro. I remember the discussions in Germany. Every time somebody stood up and asked: Can Germany leave the Euro and get its DM back if it wants to, there was a lot of wavering and "yeah, technically speaking" etc...
As a matter of fact, there are no provisions about the possibility of leaving the Euro.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-19 9:47:03 PM|| 2003-9-19 9:47:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 True. In fact joining the Euro has become EU "acquis", and the ten new members had to also accept to join the euro once they satisfy the criteria for it, before they could join the EU.

I'm not bothered by this -- after all a country that has chosen the Euro can still choose to abandon it by leaving the EU as a whole, if they think such a course adviseable...

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-19 10:07:16 PM|| 2003-9-19 10:07:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I would have preferred that not the "country" (read government) had chosen the euro but the people. But in that case the Euro would not exist today. In Germany the two big parties favored the Euro, so the people couldn't even vote out the Euro in elections. Interestingly enough, a German referendum of the Euro would have been very similar to the Swedish results, all polls of 1998 prove this.
I think this is something Bulldog rightfully deplores: The "big" EU decisions are made over the heads of the people. And there is no real accountability of the EU commission, that technically makes guidelines that the different countries have to follow by making the respective laws. If this doesn't change in the next years, Europe will just be choked to death by its bureaucrats.
That's not what I want.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-19 10:20:43 PM|| 2003-9-19 10:20:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 The Commission can't pass guidelines by itself without authorization/support by either the European Council or the European Parliament.

Other than that, I also want more democratization of the Union. But frankly there are a ton of important *national* decisions that don't get put on the polls either... people truly seem to me to be much more sensitive about imperfect democratic structures of the EU than they seem about imperfect democratic structures at the national level.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-9-19 10:59:04 PM|| 2003-9-19 10:59:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Not at all Aris. But if I don't like what my government does, I can kick it out at the next elections.
I cannot do the same with the EU Commission or the European Council (the latter also only indirectly accountable to the people). And the European Parliament, which is the only democratically elected body of the EU cannot pass a single law or guideline, it can only suggest, assist or endorse or whatever. It cannot make a single decision alone. I don't say that the EU institutions are not democratic, but they could be a lot more.

And the decision to change your currency that stood for prosperity in your own country for a currency shared by 12 nations IS INDEED more than just another important national decision. And because the major German parties supported the Euro, the Germans weren't even able to influence the decision.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-19 11:44:44 PM|| 2003-9-19 11:44:44 PM|| Front Page Top

18:36 Anonymous
11:33 whitecollar redneck
09:52 Aris Katsaris
08:03 raptor
06:22 Ptah
03:37 SteveS
02:11 Not Mike Moore
02:09 Not Mike Moore
02:07 Not Mike Moore
02:02 Not Mike Moore
01:57 Not Mike Moore
00:11 True German Ally
00:08 Charles
23:44 True German Ally
23:42 whitecollar redneck
23:34 Aris Katsaris
23:31 Not Mike Moore
23:26 Pappy
23:13 Not Mike Moore
23:13 True German Ally
22:59 Aris Katsaris
22:52 Aris Katsaris
22:52 Not Mike Moore
22:45 Not Mike Moore