Article

2009-09-17 Home Front: WoT

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by ed 2009-09-17 07:25|| || Front Page|| [11133 views ] Top

#1 this President will get Americans killed

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-09-17 07:51|| 2009-09-17 07:51|| Front Page Top

#2 In this case, Euros fried.

Posted by ed 2009-09-17 07:53|| 2009-09-17 07:53|| Front Page Top

#3 He will get all kinds of people killed.

So weak, so stupid.

Posted by newc">newc 2009-09-17 08:03|| 2009-09-17 08:03|| Front Page Top

#4 The brave Czechs rely on a democratic power and are stabbed in the back to appease an aggressive state.

Sounds vaguely familiar.

Posted by lord garth 2009-09-17 08:15|| 2009-09-17 08:15|| Front Page Top

#5 Well im gutted.

I cannot see much positive in this . Inherent Russian mindset will see this as a victory for being aggressive .

Maybe the annoucement that they are cutting their military machine to make it more streamline was part of the deal . But I doubt it . I wonder if any major announcements will be made on the Russian side , like eeerm , ooh never mind .

I cant say I blame you for leaving Europe but there are allies here and I feel , well , betrayed :(

Its another step for Europe in the wrong direction , in fact I cant remember the last time we stepped in the right direction

Posted by Oscar 2009-09-17 08:26|| 2009-09-17 08:26|| Front Page Top

#6 ooh and you've lost a handy buffer zone .

Your prez is a smart ass idiot , but we all know that

Posted by Oscar 2009-09-17 08:28|| 2009-09-17 08:28|| Front Page Top

#7 Part of Obama's repayment for all those "untraceable" foreign campaign contributions and the withdrawal of $500 billion in 1 hour from US money markets and the tanking of the US economy when Obama/Biden were behind.

Posted by ed 2009-09-17 08:38|| 2009-09-17 08:38|| Front Page Top

#8 So all that dithering during the Bush administration trying to get more 'concessions' was worth it?

Posted by Procopius2k 2009-09-17 08:40|| 2009-09-17 08:40|| Front Page Top

#9 Its another step for Europe in the wrong direction , in fact I cant remember the last time we stepped in the right direction
Posted by Oscar

You "step in the RIGHT direction" each time you expose Obama for what he is!

Thank you cousins.

Posted by Besoeker 2009-09-17 08:48|| 2009-09-17 08:48|| Front Page Top

#10 Soon enough president Barack Hussein Carter will be sporting a cardigan and advising us to lower our thermostats.

Posted by Parabellum 2009-09-17 09:00|| http://sidemeat.wordpress.com/]">[http://sidemeat.wordpress.com/] 2009-09-17 09:00|| Front Page Top

#11 Mind the tire pressure on your Toyota Parabellum. The Whitehouse is monitoring air.

Posted by Besoeker 2009-09-17 09:04|| 2009-09-17 09:04|| Front Page Top

#12 the deal, if there is a deal, relates to Iran.

Whether there is a deal, wrt either sanctions or the military option - we will see. I haven't had much time to think about this, nor have I yet seen any analysis, so I will withhold judgement for now.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 09:42|| 2009-09-17 09:42|| Front Page Top

#13 "The brave Czechs rely on a democratic power and are stabbed in the back to appease an aggressive state"

To be fair, Czech opinion on this was kinda mixed.

I still agree that its a big concession to the Russians, an implicit veto on a facility that was not directed against them. WHen we admitted the East eur states to NATO we said we wouldnt move western forces in, but what everyone was thinking of then were tank armies, not missile defenses.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 09:44|| 2009-09-17 09:44|| Front Page Top

#14 But lets also be clear. Czecho is still part of the Atlantic Alliance. An attack upon one, is an attack upon all, still applies. This isnt 1938, or 1948. AFAICT, Czechs aren't reacting to this as if it were Munich.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 09:52|| 2009-09-17 09:52|| Front Page Top

#15 Yes LH, the next bite for Russia will probably not be a piece of the Czech Republic (geographically a problem because there are other countries in the way).

However, the Georgians and the Ukrainians are feeling the heat today.

Posted by lord garth 2009-09-17 10:16|| 2009-09-17 10:16|| Front Page Top

#16 Peace in our time!

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 10:20|| 2009-09-17 10:20|| Front Page Top

#17 and btw, today is the 70th anniversary of the other invasion of Poland; the Russians invading Poland in accordance with the then-secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

Posted by lord garth 2009-09-17 10:23|| 2009-09-17 10:23|| Front Page Top

#18 Sir Obama bravely ran away!

Posted by DarthVader 2009-09-17 10:42|| 2009-09-17 10:42|| Front Page Top

#19 Wondering about the "secret protocols" associated with that deal?

Does anyone follow the Polish press?

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 10:43|| 2009-09-17 10:43|| Front Page Top

#20 This President is so good to his friends and so bad to ours.

Posted by Richard of Oregon 2009-09-17 11:04|| 2009-09-17 11:04|| Front Page Top

#21 The price of an airfield?

I have a bad feeling about this, but its something nobody has talked about so I won't start it.

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-09-17 11:37|| 2009-09-17 11:37|| Front Page Top

#22 Peace in our time!

EC,
You assume he's on America's (and freedom's) side. He's a real Manchurian Candidate.

Posted by Frozen Al 2009-09-17 11:39|| 2009-09-17 11:39|| Front Page Top

#23 You might notice how CNN /Obama slant the story: It's not cancelled - it's replaced with something better.... but we're not going to tell you what that is...

Posted by Unanter Peacock5760 2009-09-17 11:51|| 2009-09-17 11:51|| Front Page Top

#24 "However, the Georgians and the Ukrainians are feeling the heat today."

Im not sure how asserting the principle of full Czech and Polish soveriegnty helped Ukraine and Georgia, tangibly.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 11:52|| 2009-09-17 11:52|| Front Page Top

#25 Israeli press has buzz that it will be replaced with missile sites in Turkey and Israel.

Mebbe.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 11:53|| 2009-09-17 11:53|| Front Page Top

#26 Im not sure how asserting the principle of full Czech and Polish soveriegnty helped Ukraine and Georgia, tangibly.

The point you are missing is that this suggests to the Georgians and Ukrainians that relying on the US for security agreements is not a good idea.

OK, so Dear Leader has rolled over for Putin and left the Poles and our other Euro allies hanging. And on the anniversary of the last Soviet invasion of Poland, to boot.

At least we are holding tough with Honduras.

Posted by SteveS 2009-09-17 12:38|| 2009-09-17 12:38|| Front Page Top

#27 Made the rounds, have some more thoughts.

Big win for Russia. They get a political victory. In exchange for quitting Iran, they just have to claim obstruction from Iran so sorry. Greater political influence on east Europe, after the anniversary of Georgia even. Go ahead and use that airfield and spend your resources in Afghan - get dependant on that route, we can shut down that airport at any time.

Iran wins. Yeah sure Putin we quit that missile program wink wink. Missile diplomacy versus Europe as leverage against Israel. Put it in Turkey, hey the infidels attacked us shut down that site.

Israel loses. As mentioned above, but now if they want the sites they have to play ball with the Obama administration. And there are only so many places to place a site in Israel anyways making it vulnerable.

Europe loses. Yeah, they should have accepted the proposal with the previous administration. Time to wake up and take the issues of defense seriously, you cannot depend on the US for a while.

Obama Administration: a stick used against Israel then the carrot of another site? If another site is chosen it is still a ways off from being built (unless this has been anticipated and already under construction somewhere). Plus newsmaking.

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-09-17 12:38|| 2009-09-17 12:38|| Front Page Top

#28 "The point you are missing is that this suggests to the Georgians and Ukrainians that relying on the US for security agreements is not a good idea."

There was no US commitment TO Poland and Czecho wrt to the missile defense. The missile defense was designed to protect WESTERN europe primarily, and Czecho didnt even get missiles, just a radar station. What Czecho and Poland got out of it was A. Money B. Getting in good with the US C. The political benefits of the US defying Russian claims to control what NATO could build in eastern europe. Which are all benefits, but they are NOT a security guarantee. Really Georgia and Ukraine very much have their own issues, and their sense of trust in us will be based on the extent to which we come through on those issues, not on missile defense in eastern europe.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 12:50|| 2009-09-17 12:50|| Front Page Top

#29 "In exchange for quitting Iran, they just have to claim obstruction from Iran so sorry."

I dont understand that sentence.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 12:51|| 2009-09-17 12:51|| Front Page Top

#30 "Go ahead and use that airfield and spend your resources in Afghan - get dependant on that route, we can shut down that airport at any time."

Given that Pakistan is fighting the Taliban in Khyber, I think its clear US strategy is NOT to become any more dependant on Russian airfields than we have to be.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 12:52|| 2009-09-17 12:52|| Front Page Top

#31 "Israel loses. As mentioned above, but now if they want the sites they have to play ball with the Obama administration. And there are only so many places to place a site in Israel anyways making it vulnerable"

If they want the sites they have to play with the US admin in any case.

Missile bases dont take up that much room. I dont think the Israeli real estate market is going to be that big an issue.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 12:53|| 2009-09-17 12:53|| Front Page Top

#32 "Iran wins. Yeah sure Putin we quit that missile program wink wink. "

Its not about quitting the missile program, its about getting Russia to go along with real sanctions.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-09-17 12:54|| 2009-09-17 12:54|| Front Page Top

#33 It's not going to do anything about Iran. Obama already got what concessions he'll get, namely provisioning Afghanistan ... which Putin figures will drain and tie us up nicely so he wins both ways.

Pfeh.

Posted by lotp 2009-09-17 13:05|| 2009-09-17 13:05|| Front Page Top

#34 Barry approving the stationing of a battalion of Spetznaz at Lawson Army Air Field at Fort Benning would not surprise me. No, not in the least bit.

Posted by Besoeker 2009-09-17 13:10|| 2009-09-17 13:10|| Front Page Top

#35 The American Taxpayer loses. We've already sunk plenty of money into working on this deal.

Russia wins.

Posted by Mike N. 2009-09-17 13:34|| 2009-09-17 13:34|| Front Page Top

#36 1939 redux?

Posted by JohnQC 2009-09-17 13:35|| 2009-09-17 13:35|| Front Page Top

#37 Pfeh.

Yeah, what she said.

Posted by SteveS 2009-09-17 13:43|| 2009-09-17 13:43|| Front Page Top

#38 Could it have hurt to at least wait a few days until after meeting with the Russers? At least pretend to play hardball? Jeebus, what an idjit. Moving forward, I don't see the any reason why the Putin and Co. would ever negotiate with Obambi. He'll simply do what they want anyway. Lord Almighty.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2009-09-17 13:52|| 2009-09-17 13:52|| Front Page Top

#39 #34 Well yeah, but the issue is whether they would be entitled to healthcare.

Posted by Matt 2009-09-17 14:10|| 2009-09-17 14:10|| Front Page Top

#40 @Frozen Al:
"He's a real Manchurian Candidate."
Dunno: More like Jimmy Carter on steroids.

Collateral damage: Trust in the word of a U.S. president.

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 14:27|| 2009-09-17 14:27|| Front Page Top

#41 And this just in...h/t to Drudge...

SECRET REPORT: NUKE AGENCY SAYS IRAN CAN MAKE BOMB

This article goes on to state that mad mullahs are "on the way to developing a missile system able to carry an atomic warhead".

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2009-09-17 14:34|| 2009-09-17 14:34|| Front Page Top

#42 "Stop trying to keep us from killing you or we'll kill you." -- Putin, Ahmadinejad, Hu

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2009-09-17 14:37|| 2009-09-17 14:37|| Front Page Top

#43 Carter was replaced by Reagan.

Get the hint, Republican Party?

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 14:42|| 2009-09-17 14:42|| Front Page Top

#44 Ahmadinejad, Castro, Chavez and Gaddafi did get a visa for New York City.

President Roberto Micheletti from Honduras will not be allowed into the U.S.

Enough said.

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 15:38|| 2009-09-17 15:38|| Front Page Top

#45 "this President will get Americans killed"

With this President, Frank, that's a feature, not a bug. :-(

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2009-09-17 16:07|| 2009-09-17 16:07|| Front Page Top

#46 Barry the weasel strikes again. (nickname with his old homies)

Posted by notascrename">notascrename 2009-09-17 16:40|| 2009-09-17 16:40|| Front Page Top

#47 First, I'd like to take to opportunity to apologize for such an awkward to read statement - I am busy but felt passionately about such an important subject. And I admit not knowing the intricies of people and politcs half way around the world.

The whole point of this exercise is symbolic. I do not envision Russian tanks rolling across Europe at the moment. I do see Russia, naturally like any nation, exercising its power. They can turn off the gas to Europe, they can mess with Estonia at will, they did just recently send their army into Georgia.

What good will Russian sanctions against Iran accomplish? Iran could still receive materials and expertise via Pakistan. If indeed the Arctic Sea was transporting weapons does that not show the level of deception Russia will attempt in order to proliferate weapons? A missile defense system is a very tangible asset traded for a Russian promise.

There are some materials which do not and cannot travel up through Pakistan. Troops, for example. Materials the US cannot afford to have captured would be another. It would probably take Russia only about 5 minutes to shut down its airspace. Do US troops really want the Khyber to be the sole resupply point?

IIUC this system, as it would have been, would not be capable of prevent an all out missile attack. Now, there has been talk about the possibility of Israel striking Iran. If I were Iran and I wanted to put pressure on Israel I'd tell the EU that if there was a strike, I'll send missiles your direction. Its an easy sell, "Israel is a European and US design so their targets are legitimate."

A weak US is a weak NATO. Europe without a credible military threat/counter threat will do nothing if suddenly the Baltic States have a pro-Russian uprising. They will do nothing as Russia gains control of energy supplies around the Black Sea. The further away a NATO flag is from those areas, the more emboldened Russia will become. Sure it is symbolic, but that is the point of politics.

With control of the energy supplies to Europe, Russia not only makes big bucks but has direct influence in the governance of the EU. They can use that money to fund popular movements in Europe. Russia knows that if the Obama administration completely flubs Afghanistan big time the democrats will not only lose in 2012, but will probably not be in White House for a long time. That gives them control over half the political system of the USA.

If the Russians are looking at Europe, I would bet they peek over their shoulder every once in a while. Losing Kamchatka to China in any sense, by population, business takeover or land grab, would be a major blow. If the Middle East goes apeshit the US will need energy from elsewhere, and that could be Russia. Russia could say to China, "Stay out of Kamchatka. If you take it over we will get the USA government to default on loans and get both the USA and EU to begin a trade war with you."

But thats OK. Maybe sanctions will work this time, what do I know?

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-09-17 16:57|| 2009-09-17 16:57|| Front Page Top

#48 And as for Israel, I must have a soft spot in my heart the oasis full of innovative and dedicated people who have made the desert bloom in that region of the world for the first time in a thousand years. Heck, for all I know the average Israeli wouldn't give me the time of day..but I recognize their accomplishments.

Israel is dealing with the most hostile US administration in my lifetime. Israel should depend on nothing from the USA at the moment, even if their first line of defense from an Iranian strike is Iraq. But a missile strike from Iran would be purely symbolic - Iran would know they would get a smackdown. The obvious move to me if Iran wanted wanted to cause trouble would be a land delivery system so there is not an obvious official Iranian trace of the attack. The more time passes Iran the stronger they become. This buys them time.

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-09-17 17:44|| 2009-09-17 17:44|| Front Page Top

#49 Hey you f***ed up -- you trusted us! A classic line from Animal House, now let's all have a good laugh while EU supplicates for its new overlords.

Posted by regular joe 2009-09-17 19:24|| 2009-09-17 19:24|| Front Page Top

#50 I wish I felt like I could trust Zero. There is potentially a whole lot more going on here than we can or should see, but I just don't have that warm, fuzzy feeling that it's to our benefit.

Posted by Glenmore 2009-09-17 19:35|| 2009-09-17 19:35|| Front Page Top

#51 I told the Tsar about this when he came back from work. He wanted to know what we got in return. I said, "apparently nothing."

Best laugh he had all week, punctuated with the occasional "dumbass!"

Posted by Cornsilk Blondie 2009-09-17 19:48|| 2009-09-17 19:48|| Front Page Top

#52 He He He!

Posted by General_Comment 2009-09-17 20:40|| 2009-09-17 20:40|| Front Page Top

#53 nice spin, Liberal Hawk. Your loyalty to the O exceeds your hawkishness, which I always doubted anyway. Teh Zero sells out and gets nuthin in return, not even cab fare on the dresser after Putin gets dressed and leaves

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-09-17 21:21|| 2009-09-17 21:21|| Front Page Top

#54 It looks like Putin didn't even undress

Posted by European Conservative 2009-09-17 21:33|| 2009-09-17 21:33|| Front Page Top

#55 1938, 1968, and now 2009. Wonder if the Czechs are used to it by now.

Posted by DMFD 2009-09-17 22:39|| 2009-09-17 22:39|| Front Page Top

#56 Maybe Bambi will deign to send the Czechs and Poles an extra-large supply of KY.....

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2009-09-17 22:56|| 2009-09-17 22:56|| Front Page Top

23:39 USN, Ret.
23:35 Cornsilk Blondie
23:31 JosephMendiola
23:25 USN, Ret.
23:25 JosephMendiola
23:22 Shinelet Bourbon2890
23:12 Woozle Uneter9007
23:11 USN, Ret.
23:08 USN, Ret.
22:57 Barbara Skolaut
22:56 Barbara Skolaut
22:56 Woozle Uneter9007
22:54 Barbara Skolaut
22:39 DMFD
22:32 DMFD
22:32 Anonymoose
22:26 lotp
22:17 DMFD
22:10 Nimble Spemble
22:04 Frank G
22:01 remoteman
21:51 lotp
21:47 Thing From Snowy Mountain
21:46 lotp