Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Tue 09/14/2004 View Mon 09/13/2004 View Sun 09/12/2004 View Sat 09/11/2004 View Fri 09/10/2004 View Thu 09/09/2004 View Wed 09/08/2004
1
2004-09-14 Russia
Moscow doctors try to help desperate mothers, who lost their children in Beslan
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-14 2:41:40 AM|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Zen When I read this stuff I just go into a red rage. None of this stuff had to happen. But the evil that authors this has no remorse.

As predicted the "moderate muslims" have dried up and blown away. My hope is that Vlad the 1st hunts them down and has them slowly given the Dracula treatment.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-09-14 7:59:23 AM||   2004-09-14 7:59:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Thanks for the post, Zenster. I think it's extremely relevant, and I 'm glad you put it on the board today.

First: there’s no fixing this. Teenage girls were raped (and videotaped while they were being raped). Children saw their friends and teachers bayonetted, shot, and blown up. They witnessed suicide bombings up close. They saw people all around them dying from thirst. Their captors showed no mercy. Parents and police that tried to rescue them were murdered in front of their eyes. They saw their school destroyed. And all this from their “next-door neighbors,” so to speak. Saying that this community will be suffering from the effects of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder for, literally, generations, doesn't even come close to describing what these people will be going through.

I agree with you, Zenster, when you say that “I feel that we all need every single argument possible when we are confronted with people who refuse to comprehend the enormity of terrorism.” It’s true. Until people see the true aftermath of the actions of the terrorists, they simply cannot comprehend how far it goes, and how bad it is. As you, and everyone else here knows, I have been a very outspoken critic of Islamic neofacism, and I agree with you that, while it’s tough for us to keep revisiting this situation, we must.

While your “bible quote” at the end is appreciated by me, it also mystifies me. It mystifies because you consistently rail against President Bush for having some sort of “faith-based” agenda to which you strongly object. It also mystifies me that, as an avowed secularist, you are now inserting religious verses into your posts, when just 10 days ago your “civil, well-reasoned discourse” to me, when I challenged your personal sacred cow, was to say that I am “an hysterical hate-monager” with “a paranoid eggshell ego,” that I’m an “intolerant hysterical totalitarian” at the “lunatic fringe level of hyperventilating panic,” and that "I deserve deserve every iota of the bile, vitriol and raw sewage floating in (my) veins” (at this link ).

One of the “every single arguments possible” against Islamic neofacism you advocate for, is a rational and critical comparison of the ideologies that drive the opposing views of Islam and Christianity--if only because of the very fact that Islamofacism’s stated goal is to destroy Christians (and Jews) as primary targets. (Beslan is an old Christian community--no doubt that’s why they were selected for termination.) What happened in Beslan is the end result of Islamofacism and a peculiar totalitarianism which seeks, by any and all means possible, to dismantle and deconstruct Western civilization on psuedo-"religious" grounds. We need to understand the machinations as well as the "end goal" of the Islamofacists. Beslan is just one more example of the realization of their aims. Like it or not, what happened in Beslan is a direct outworking of the terrorists' "faith-based" agenda.

I found two links I thought might be applicable and helpful to the current discussions. A comparison of Islam with Christianity and some different points of view regarding your own particular "hot button".

Just food for thought.

And BTW, I like you better when you're quoting bible verses. Go figure.




Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-14 1:05:10 PM||   2004-09-14 1:05:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 I don't want to hear verse of any kind.

If you need a quote, then best to heed that agnostic president and war leader's wisdom: The Almighty has his own purposes. As for those of us on earth, I want to destroy this scourge. Period.

Posted by lex 2004-09-14 1:26:23 PM||   2004-09-14 1:26:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Um, is that pretty close to "Fry 'em up"?
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 1:29:08 PM||   2004-09-14 1:29:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Yeah! The only frying I want to hear about is the judicious frying of the cockroaches that butchered those kids!
Posted by BigEd 2004-09-14 1:33:32 PM||   2004-09-14 1:33:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 No. Just win. I don't hate muslims any more than Lincoln hated confederates. I don't wish to reform their world any more than Lincoln wanted to destroy slavery.

I just want to destroy the jihadists. And I'm sure that my determination will burn longer than the kind of righteous indignation that waxes and wanes with each news cycle.
Posted by lex 2004-09-14 1:34:33 PM||   2004-09-14 1:34:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 lex - you're playing with the words and cutting a line where it suits you. The muslims vs jihadists... So you're a Daniel Pipes nitpicker?

When the Muslims start frying up the jihadists for endangering their existence, I'll listen.

Muslims equated to Confederates? Pfeh.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 1:44:41 PM||   2004-09-14 1:44:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 It also mystifies me that, as an avowed secularist, you are now inserting religious verses into your posts, when just 10 days ago your “civil, well-reasoned discourse” to me, when I challenged your personal sacred cow, was to say that I am “an hysterical hate-monager

I got no problem with this quote (except it should be allow the children, nothing about suffering children in our sense) and I aint no christian, and i can even find some christians who are hysterical hatemongers :)
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 1:48:43 PM||   2004-09-14 1:48:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 The muslims vs jihadists... So you're a Daniel Pipes nitpicker?

Clarify please - are you saying he nitpicks Pipes, or hes a nitpicker LIKE Pipes?

Id be happy to be included in the ranks of nitpickers like Daniel Pipes.

Hell, dot com, even you dont consider all muslims the same as jihadists, ive seen too many posts from you where you make that clear :)
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 1:51:47 PM||   2004-09-14 1:51:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 though I do think that theres a need for a broader reform in Islam beyond the Jihadists - the Jihadists arose out of a failed society, and until that society is changed I fear we wont be done with jihadists, baathists, and related problems. Im more of a root causer that way. guess it has to do with radical rather than strictly liberal roots, like the Neocons ;)
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 1:53:27 PM||   2004-09-14 1:53:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 LH - I have now completed the circle. From wide-eyed romantic to fry 'em up.

Beslan was the last straw. The support for the Chechens that came after Beslan from all over Islam cured me of my last vestige of sympathy for the imagined plight of the mythical moderate muslims. I found no posts from Islamic sources (Arab News, Al Arabiyah, Islam Unspun, Islam Online, etc) that took the Chechens to task for the loss of life. The closest to come to that said it was fully justified - and the dead would be treated well in Paradise for their sacrifice. No links - I saw nothing to save.

And I no longer see anything to save in Islam. That which is passive is merely an untapped resource for the active. No Muslims say "No!" to the jihadis. Got a bunch of nifty links saying they do? Post away.

As for Pipes, as I've said here before - and got Anon1 all wild-eyed when I did, he's on a path of discovery. He was not that far off Edward Said pre-9/11. Post 9/11 he said there are just a few bad Muslims. Just a few Caliphatists who are doing all this damage - think about how many locations where there is Islamic "unrest" - MSM-speak for the spread, voluntary or by force, of Islam... Wasn't there a recent post indicating 85+% of the world's current conflicts are actually Islam spreading - by force? Well Danny-boy is still learning - and his center of gravity moves with him. Closer and closer to accepting that the mythical moderate is, well, mythical. It must be very disheartening for him, and I am not bashing him, despite that perception last time. I am observing the slow shift in his writings. If he wants to flail away at the reality and pretend that what's actually happening in practice is the aberration, not his view, well he's free to do so. I am free to say he's still a few bricks shy of getting it, but he's coming along.

I know you can cut much of Islamic terrorism by cutting the funding - and I advocated for that for about the last 18 months, no?

But Beslan, on the other side of the planet, has made it clear to me that there is no authority which will make the mythical moderate free of the jihadi. Look at Sistani, who you used to (still do?) defend as a moderate. He sits on his fucking hands as Iraq burns around him. Fat lot of good he is to his minions. Back to the "moderate" and the jihadi - in practice, there is no difference. Just tapped vs untapped resources. I have given up on Islam. Period. The reservoir dried up in Beslan.

Fry 'em up.

My considered opinion.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 2:16:01 PM||   2004-09-14 2:16:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 What a tragic story.

This truly underscores why ALL these islamofascists need to be put to death -- they have lost any right to live by forsaking the most basic of all human contracts: respect for the right to life of others. These islamofascist monsters could not have reached these abject levels of depravity, without first seeing their victims as less than human, less than worthy of the respect owed to all other creatures. And, they would not have dehumanized their victims WITHOUT THE TEACHINGS OF THEIR RELIGION.

Show me where the islamofascists' teachings tell them NOT to do what they did. Any such suggested teaching is far outweighed by the numerous clear teachings to do exactly what they did. THIS IS A WAR OF RELIGIONS. Mind you, I’m not saying Judeo-Christianity versus Islam -- but, yes, Judeo-Chrisitianity versus Islamofascism.

As an aside, regarding Lincoln: his strong faith in what was right and what was wrong (steeped as it was in Judeo-Christian faith) took this nation through some of its darkest days -- and laid the bedrock principle of reconciliation, forgiveness and tolerance where possible, and determined and dedicated eradication of sedition where not possible. In that vein: Death to Islamofascism!
Posted by cingold 2004-09-14 2:20:03 PM||   2004-09-14 2:20:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 He was not that far off Edward Said pre-9/11
what you been smoking man? I followed said before 9/11, and Pipes too - ive even skimmed his book on Greater Syria. Your sentence makes no sense.

And yes, ive seen plenty of muslims condemn the attack in Beslan. No i havent seen any condemn the Chechens in general. Cause, er, the Chechens in general didnt do that. Hell, there are pro-Putin Chechens. In fact Putin and pals say the pro-Putin Chechens are the majority. So if Putin is right, why should anyone condemn Chechens in general?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:01:08 PM||   2004-09-14 3:01:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#14  Look at Sistani, who you used to (still do?) defend as a moderate. He sits on his fucking hands as Iraq burns around him.

I still see Sistani as different from Sadr, and and even more so from AQ et al. I no longer consider strengthening him a good thing, but thats a far cry from considering him the moral equivalent of murderers.

Iraq burning around him? No the Sunni triangle is burning around him, plus Baghdad. Everything from Hilla south to Basra has been quiet the last few days.
Should he condemn Zarq? Im pretty sure he has - doubt that the Sunnis in Fallujah, or on Haifa Street in Baghdad pay much attention to him. And Allawi has implied that if Fallujah is still in insurgent hands in January, they may go ahead and have elections without it. Since this increases the Shia share of the vote, why whould Sistani be worried?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:06:01 PM||   2004-09-14 3:06:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 sistani and pals have been busy consolidating their position in Najaf.

Al-Sadr posters and pictures tacked up around the city streets and neighborhood shops have been torn down. The police, whom al-Sadr's fighters drove from their Najaf and Kufa compounds last spring, have packed their jail cells with the cleric's followers.

They also have used heavy-handed tactics such as door-to-door searches, checkpoints and arrests during the past two weeks to curb the al-Sadr influence in Najaf.

On Thursday they carted off three pickups filled with Kalashnikovs, rocket-propelled grenade launchers and other weapons confiscated from the basement of al-Sadr's office after the cleric acquiesced to the search at the request of the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Husseini al-Sistani, the leading Shiite religious authority.

The backlash by the city's merchants, police and affluent class, who suffered most under al-Sadr's five-month rule, has rattled the cleric's top advisers, who are hunkered in his office within earshot of the protests. They blame Najaf's governor and police for orchestrating the demonstrations and using officers dressed in street clothes to rally the crowd
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:09:22 PM||   2004-09-14 3:09:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 lex - you're playing with the words and cutting a line where it suits you. The muslims vs jihadists... So you're a Daniel Pipes nitpicker?

I certainly don't oppose Fouad Ajami or Fareed Zakaria or Kanan Makiya. If I'm not mistaken, all of these pro-war, anti-jihadist intellectuals are muslims.

Posted by lex 2004-09-14 3:12:46 PM||   2004-09-14 3:12:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 LH / lex - cool, you guys have it nailed. I'm sure that everything will be fine, cuz you have your "moderate Muslims" to stop the madness.

Cool. See ya 'round.
Posted by .com 2004-09-14 3:16:04 PM||   2004-09-14 3:16:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Yes, moderate muslims exist, and more are being created every day. We need to win both wars, the one with fire and sword and the one for hearts and minds. This was our two-track strategy in the Cold War, and it produced success.

As to your demonization of muslims, I recall the same melding in certain minds of "Soviet" and "Russian." Which is especially annoying to me and my Russian wife and our Russian- and English-speaking son. I can understand how the normal, decent muslims feel, and I would do anything in my power to increase the chance that some muslim Gorbachevs begin to appear.

As I say, my goal is to win this war. What's yours?
Posted by lex 2004-09-14 3:24:58 PM||   2004-09-14 3:24:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 #2 While your “bible quote” at the end is appreciated by me, it also mystifies me. It mystifies because you consistently rail against President Bush for having some sort of “faith-based” agenda to which you strongly object.

ex-lib, did you happen to notice the various obsevations that followed your post in the linked thread? I'll put them here for your edification:

#81 "Anyone else thinks that ex-lib needs to go back to his medication?"
- Aris Katsaris -

#83 I don't know about medication, Aris, but the language is over the top for me. I don't see homosexuality as the moral equivalent of terrorism, nor the likely cause for the end of the western world. To each their own, ex-lib...
- jules -

#85 Ex-lib just having his first 'acid experience' Makes Joyce look lucid.
- Howard UK -

#93 ... Your whole posts, both yours and ex-lib's, are synopsised down to "We hate you because you don't like Bush, because you support issues that both we and Bush oppose."
- Aris Katsaris -

#106 ... Ex-lib, this is the last I'm gonna bother with a crazy such as yourself who has claimed supporting gay rights is as evil as supporting terrorism: You are a raving lunatic. Get a fucking grip and get a fucking perspective.
- Aris Katsaris -

ex-lib, note the repeated drug references, be they to medications or LSD? Note how others immediately recognized your intolerance and willingness to equate support of gay rights with terrorism? Do you remotely comprehend how difficult this makes it to accept anything you have to contribute? Are you able to understand that this is the "raw sewage in your veins" that I was referring to?

The virulent hatred you demonstrate for homosexuals and their right to peaceful coexistence in modern society highlights an inability to extend your own faith's golden rule. What you would do unto others could only bring forth howls of certain protest were they done to you.

It also mystifies me that, as an avowed secularist, you are now inserting religious verses into your posts, when just 10 days ago your “civil, well-reasoned discourse” to me, when I challenged your personal sacred cow, was to say that I am “an hysterical hate-monager” with “a paranoid eggshell ego,” that I’m an “intolerant hysterical totalitarian” at the “lunatic fringe level of hyperventilating panic,” and that "I deserve deserve every iota of the bile, vitriol and raw sewage floating in (my) veins”

ex-lib, did you bother to notice how I omitted Mark's tag line regarding "the kingdom of God?" The "me" in that phrase could also be construed by more open minds to be anything from mother nature to the soil which eventually receives us all. I'm confident it will probably enrage you that I would willfully take a Biblical quote out of context, even if it is in a benign manner, but that is just something you'll have to deal with. My intention was to show how we are forced to suffer the departure of our children from us by the evil in this world.

One of the “every single arguments possible” against Islamic neofacism you advocate for, is a rational and critical comparison of the ideologies that drive the opposing views of Islam and Christianity--if only because of the very fact that Islamofacism’s stated goal is to destroy Christians (and Jews) as primary targets. (Beslan is an old Christian community--no doubt that’s why they were selected for termination.) What happened in Beslan is the end result of Islamofacism and a peculiar totalitarianism which seeks, by any and all means possible, to dismantle and deconstruct Western civilization on psuedo-"religious" grounds. We need to understand the machinations as well as the "end goal" of the Islamofacists. Beslan is just one more example of the realization of their aims. Like it or not, what happened in Beslan is a direct outworking of the terrorists' "faith-based" agenda.

ex-lib, you are nearly astounding in your level of disconnect. Quite obviously you are incapable of understanding how any "faith-based" agenda posed within a political framework, as in sharia law, theocracy or the "office of faith based giving" and DOMA, all represent a basic violation of the separation of church and state. Your ability to disregard this glaring hypocrisy is what I find so disturbing about your brand of "Christianity." I feel that Jesus, who most certainly did exist, would have extreme difficulty in accepting the sort of intolerance and blame you attempt to place upon others who wish you no direct harm.

At this point, I am also obliged to note how you have, once again, taken the liberty of attempting to hijack a thread with your own personal agenda and attacks upon myself. At the earliest opportunity, please get over yourself.

#7 When the Muslims start frying up the jihadists for endangering their existence, I'll listen.

.com, your statement is a bullseye dart. I've tried to say the same thing many times myself, perhaps in a more subtle way. It is why I have repeatedly asked about where are all the moderate imams who're willing to gloriously martyr themselves while they preach against violent jihad to their Islamist brothers?

Your statement would seem to carry an additional modicum of weight because of the pervasive inclination towards violence that so many Muslims exhibit. While many would argue that this is not so and many ordinary followers of Islam wish only for peaceful coexistence, it is their tacit acceptance of jihadist violence that condemns them. I believe these are the "untapped resources" that you refer to.

Islam's unspoken approval of violent jihad must therefore be turned against them per your own proposition. If Muslims silently condone jihadist violence then they are not allowed to skate with respect to them using similar violence in order to eliminate a potent internal threat to their very own existence. When Muslims finally begin to get on board with how they must wage their own jihad against the Islamists, only then will they begin to gain a single iota of credibility.

Until then, any proclamations of moderation and peaceful intent all go out the window. Muslims must vigorously defend their faith from the vicious and brutal savages that would endanger them all. If no such peril is seen in the barbarity that jihadists perpetuate, then every Muslim forfeits all right to demand any distinction from those same Islamists.

It is this commutative equation that Islam somehow willingly blinds itself to. Beslan and so many other Islamist atrocities are slowly bringing about recognition of this appropriate guilt-by-association within the non-Muslim global community. Even as it is impeded by stupidity, naked greed and the most callow of self-interest, thinking people everywhere must one day open their eyes to the monstrous threat leveled at us all.

That Islam refuses to understand or unanimously protest the poison that jihadists are regularly injecting into their religion's veins will be a death knell for all Muslims.

#8 I got no problem with this quote (except it should be allow the children, nothing about suffering children in our sense) and I aint no christian, and i can even find some christians who are hysterical hatemongers :)

Liberalhawk, the term "suffer" does not refer to the children's agony. I would liken the word's use more to the context of its meaning in the term "universal sufferage." I interpret it as how the grieving parents must suffer (or allow) that their children depart them, not that the children themselves suffer as they do so. Causing children to suffer is nothing I would ever glorify.

#12 This truly underscores why ALL these islamofascists need to be put to death

cingold, without wishing to start any sort of brawl, I hope that you can appreciate why I advocate using wetwork teams to achieve the end you posted above, which I have excerpted.

Islamists must meet the most hurried of deaths before they can wreak even another single murder of innocent life. I want it done immediately and have essentially zero faith that a majority of the governments overseeing Muslim dominated nations will do very much about eradicating this problem anytime soon.

However grievous it is, due process will not and cannot address this issue quickly enough. If it is not wetwork teams performing summary execution of those who proclaim the religious right to indiscriminately slaughter civilians, then it must be total war. I see no other viable alternatives.

Prosecution of routine military intervention on the scale we are now witnessing will lead to only one thing;

A terrorist nuclear attack upon America or another major international metropolis, in that order. This is utterly unacceptable.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-14 3:26:24 PM||   2004-09-14 3:26:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 nah, dot com, a few intellectuals wont stop the madness. Hell, if 30% of muslims are moderate that wont stop the madness.

Heres my top of the head guesstimate breakdown - Truely moderate muslims - 15%. Anti-terrorist but still fucked up in other aspects of their thinking - 15%. Anti-jihadi, but willing to justify terror in select cases 40%. Support the Jihadis - 30%. Of these last probably less than a third (10%) provide active support.

Is this enough to stop the madness - not without our help, no, and even with our help its not clear. But its enough to make it morally right to make distinctions. And its enough to make it strategically right to do so.

Cmon dot com, youre around here enough. How many Americans troops are killing jihadis in Algeria? None. In Morocco? In Waziristan? In Uzbekistan? the list is endless. You start pogroming muslims, you think youre gonna keep the cooperation of one muslim govt? Whatcha gonna do with Indonesia - turn it over to the jihadis? Occupy it? you gonna occupy Algeria? Egypt? I aint get it nailed (nice rhetorical trick there) but you dont have an answer either.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 3:26:50 PM||   2004-09-14 3:26:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Liberalhawk, a polite question, please.

While other governments are indeed doing something to quell jihadists within their midst. Is it enough to avert the major atrocities that are still coming our way?

I do not see where it is. I believe this is what contributes to .com's vehemence. Current progress against terrorism is plainly insufficient. Beslan was adequate proof of that. Interdicting terrorism on a case-by-case basis is simply not feasible.

An overarching intervention against Islamist terrorism is required. Be it the credible deterrents and wetwork teams I've mentioned, or flat-out total war, it is something on this order that will begin to make the least dent in terrorist activity.

I do not think it is paranoid or hysterical at all to anticipate how current tactics, if left unchanged, will lead to a terrorist nuclear attack. This must be prevented at all costs. Even one single terrorist atomic bombing could send the global economy into a tailspin that would make the post 9-11 downturn look like a picnic.

With Beslan, the terrorist's gloves came off. Those of us who are determined to combat terrorism are now obliged to find similar bare-knuckled approaches to rooting them out and killing them at every opportunity. As always, I welcome alternative suggestions and solutions. I'll ask everyone to note the increasing frequency of people here suggesting that Mecca and Medina be subjected to immediate nuclear attack. While this is nothing I support, I do feel that holding the shrines hostage or physically taking possession of them (the ultimate "flypaper") will better serve the ends of making the global Muslim population realize just how much is at stake should they continue refusing to expunge jihadists from within their ranks.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-14 3:49:57 PM||   2004-09-14 3:49:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Sorry but that won't cut it against some anonymous jihadist slipping a dirty nuke into one of the x-thousand generic containers that arrive at the ports of Baltimore and Houston and LA and Oakland every hour.

Not trying to be cute here-- I don't really have the answer-- but we're not in a MAD era anymore. Neither can we really take on the "muslim world." We need a realistic, flexible doctrine and strategy that gets support from whatever quarter we can find it, be it the Kremlin or New Delhi or muslim reformers where such exist.
Posted by lex 2004-09-14 3:54:01 PM||   2004-09-14 3:54:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 lex, we really need to come up with some answers. Our lives depend upon it.

I'm beginning to think that physically securing the Arabian shrines may have some potential. They would become the ultimate "flypaper" for jihadis from all over the globe. Let them come and be killed there, rather than on our own soil. Land mines, cluster bombs, remote control machine guns, whatever it takes to mow them down on a regular basis.

How could retaking the shrines not become their top priority? I know this sounds loony, but I am fed up with sitting around and waiting for the next Beslan atrocity. I'll repeat what I said elsewhere.

Just as 9-11 forever changed hijacking protocols, so did Beslan permanently alter all future hostage-taking situations. The only thing we can truly count upon is that some twisted jihadi somewhere will arrive at an even worse escalation to challenge these already depraved limits.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-14 4:20:47 PM||   2004-09-14 4:20:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 zenster, without analyzing them, i note you are proposing concrete solutions. I agree that current activities are inadequate. I was merely taking issue with the "kill every muslim approach" which seemed to be implied in derogating Daniel Pipes of all people for being to "moderate"

I note Russia is increasing its security budget and making reforms in the organization of its security services. I suspect they will soon be cleaning out the Pankisi Gorger, and I hope we pressure Georgia to go along. I would hope Russia would help us in Iraq and elsewher in return. I note Russia is now increaing cooperation with Israel, and hope this expands.

I could say what i want the Euros to do differently but that wouldnt surprise you.

I think the current admin is doing about all it can abroad militarily - i dont see much room for improvement from a tougher stand, beyond what is being done and what i think is already in the works (which include taking out Fallujah soon, and increasing pressure on Iran). I would like to see fuller mobilization at home, but thats another story we've been over before. I dont see Beslan leading to that, and thats unfortunate. And yes, i still think we should be doing much more in terms of public diplomacy, propaganda, culture war, etc.


Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-09-14 4:32:40 PM||   2004-09-14 4:32:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 I'm not keen on the flypaper strategy. Fine for dealing with jihadists already in situ but there's no point in creating new ones, which is what your idea would do. I'd rather apply such creativity to the political side of this thing, as that's the way to shift the correlation of forces, as it were, in our favor.

I think it's time to consider splitting Kurdistan off from Iraq. Also time to get serious about a deep and strategic relationship with India and Russia. That's my $0.02
Posted by lex 2004-09-14 4:35:15 PM||   2004-09-14 4:35:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Wow, Zenster. Ex-lib compliments the thread you started and you go ap#sh!^ all over her. Get a grip, dude. So much for the topic . . . (which, I for one, thought was pretty germane)

But, you are masterful. Check out, for instance, the rhetorical sophistry of the “straw man.” ”The virulent hatred you demonstrate for homosexuals and their right to peaceful coexistence in modern society highlights . . .” Gee, that’s terrible, but ex-lib never said that, did she?

I also liked the ad hominem. The old tricks are the best tricks, right? Those personal attacks always serve to detract from real points.

Oh, oh, and the “how we are forced to suffer the departure of our children from us by the evil in this world . . .” Wow, like that’s in the bible? Christ said that? How Zen. Wait did He?link? And to think I’ve always read Mark 10:14 as Christ thought kids were cool.

Now on to me, you write “cingold, without wishing to start any sort of brawl, I hope that you can appreciate why I advocate using wetwork teams to achieve the end you posted above, which I have excerpted.” Now? I always have, as you well know (see link). NO BRAWL NECESSARY. My objections, as you remember (see link), were to your suggestion that the sovereignty and cooperation of an ally be compromised by your sloppy suggestion. :)
Posted by cingold 2004-09-14 4:36:12 PM||   2004-09-14 4:36:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Oh, and three Aris Katsaris quotes to back you up on ex-lib. My, oh my, you've hit the bigtime.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-14 4:37:49 PM||   2004-09-14 4:37:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 What this thread really touches on (note: attempt to get back on track here) is how human beings can get so twisted that they do the horrific stuff we see here. The same questions were asked after the death camps were discovered in Nazi Germany, and I think those early studies are useful.

This guy named Stanley Milgram researched “obedience to authority” (see link) and found out that you can get a great majority of people to do truly terrible things. All it really takes is the deconstruction of social norms and mores in the mind of the subject, which is accomplished all the more easily by doing the deconstruction through a trusted authority figure. That’s how Islamofascists monsters are made. The mullahs and the ayatollahs are the puppet masters of a death cult. What we need is some serious deprogramming throughout the Muslim world.
Posted by cingold 2004-09-14 4:59:12 PM||   2004-09-14 4:59:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Zenster--HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO SAY THIS:

I never equated gay rights with terrorism. And you know it. Nor do I, or have I ever, exhibited any "virulent hatred or homosexuals" as you falsely assert. Rather, I think it's you who are exhibiting an "astounding level of disconnect." Please--get over yourself, will you? READ my post C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L-Y, and analytically, and you'll see that. I mean, what does it take?

Secondy: using "Aris Katsaris'" posts to "spank" me ain't gonna fly, Zenster. I didn't have time to answer jules that day, and HowardUK did express that he thought I was out of it. But I chalk it up to the fact that people have been conditioned to unquestioningly accept exactly what the homosexual lobby has been promoting for the last twenty years--which is that: to question anything about their political aims is “bad,” “intolerant,” “evil,” “oppressive,” “mean,” etc. In so doing, they limit dialogue and debate.

I will always “question authority.” Any and every topic is open to discussion, which is all I was doing. By saying I was doing anything else, just proves my point of your intolerance and the intolerance of the gay lobby to stand up to reasonable critique.

Next, you say, "I'm confident it will probably enrage you that I would willfully take a Biblical quote out of context." “Enrage” me? Oh yeah, right. Whatever! Zenster--I don't care what you do about stuff like that. That's your deal. You said "My intention was to show how we are forced to suffer the departure of our children from us by the evil in this world." Okay, that's fine. You’re free to think and post anything you want. (Of course, the context of the verse has to do with Jesus' rebuke of his disciples for ostracizing children from him--like he was too special for them. He said "allow (suffer) them to come to Me, for such is the kingdom of heaven.") Just FYI, and like I said, it’s no big to me. Sorry, but as much as you might want to pigeion-hole me, it's not going to happen.

You said, "What you would do unto others could only bring forth howls of certain protest were they done to you." WTF, Zenster? What do you think I want to do? Hurt homosexuals? Kill homosexuals? I see most homosexuals and lesbians transexuals as people who have a legitmate need for same-sex love relationships (usually denied in childhood) --legitimate needs which they are trying to meet sexually (and it isn't working out very well for them). Good grief. Your stupid accusations against me stink.

Further, as you well know, I was talking about deconstructionism and societal outcomes of redefining human relationships within a context that, essentially, is ARTIFICIAL. "Gayness" as an entity or class, simply doesn't exist. Again, my position is that heterosexual males and females (who “call” themselves gay, lesbian, or transexual) are engaging in sexual activities with members of the same sex, are bouncing back and forth between the sexes, or are trying to escape their sexuality--for a number of reasons, usually specific to the individual. It's a valid point, which you, apparently, cannot discuss on an intellectual or rational basis.

Zenster, please try to understand that I don't care what people do in their private lives. But when any group fictitiously tries to define themselves as a special “class” in the legal sense--based on certain behaviors--then, yes, I have some trouble with it. (BTW: As a point of interest: Did you know pedophiles are now using the exact same arguments of the radical homosexuals to try and secure legislation to lower the age of consent? They claim children's "sexuality" is being hindered and oppressed by outdated "Christian" cultural norms. Sick, no?)


My understanding is that you support deconstructionism in the form of “gay” “marriage.” Am I wrong? Have I misunderstood you? It is clear, though, that you definitely don’t like organizations that have any connection, whatsoever, to anything religious, except for “secular” organizations, which actually are just as “religious” (--define “religion”). But I read, at the whitehouse link that: “President Bush announced nearly $189 million in Federal funding to support the work of organizations serving America's needy. Many of these social service providers are faith-based and community organizations. $43 million was awarded through the President's Compassion Capital Fund, $45.6 million was awarded through the Mentoring Children of Prisoners program, and $100 million through the Access to Recovery drug treatment voucher program.” Just clicking on the Mentoring Children of Prisoners shows how the monies are allocated. It doesn't look that "terrible" to me. Almost all of the organizations helping these kids are what you'd call "secular" anyway.

I said, "One of the “every single arguments possible” against Islamic neofacism you advocate for, is a rational and critical comparison of the ideologies that drive the opposing views of Islam and Christianity--if only because of the very fact that Islamofacism’s stated goal is to destroy Christians (and Jews) as primary targets. (Beslan is an old Christian community--no doubt that’s why they were selected for termination.) What happened in Beslan is the end result of Islamofacism and a peculiar totalitarianism which seeks, by any and all means possible, to dismantle and deconstruct Western civilization on psuedo-"religious" grounds. We need to understand the machinations as well as the "end goal" of the Islamofacists. Beslan is just one more example of the realization of their aims. Like it or not, what happened in Beslan is a direct outworking of the terrorists' "faith-based" agenda."

Too bad you can't talk about the stuff I really say. But you've been so angry and ugly--saying that "I deserve deserve every iota of the bile, vitriol and raw sewage floating in (my) veins,” (Wow. I've never said anything like that to you), and equating me with Nazis and the witchhunts at Salem (which actually has been traced to fungi-contaminated grain, causing hallucinations), that I'm not sure I want to talk to you anymore. You're just too narrow-minded and intolerant.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-14 5:12:55 PM||   2004-09-14 5:12:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 cingold--you said: "All it really takes is the deconstruction of social norms and mores in the mind of the subject, which is accomplished all the more easily by doing the deconstruction through a trusted authority figure. That’s how Islamofascists monsters are made. The mullahs and the ayatollahs are the puppet masters of a death cult. What we need is some serious deprogramming throughout the Muslim world."

I really liked what you said, but are you saying that the mullahs actually need to deconstruct Muslim thinking to accomplish these atrocities? I thought that what we would consider "deconstructed thinking" is actually the norm for Muslims, according to Islam, (although your "basic Musim" probably wouldn't agree with the crazies). Explain? I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-09-14 5:21:33 PM||   2004-09-14 5:21:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Tag Team! No Fair!
How much is your retainer Cingold?
Posted by Shipman 2004-09-14 6:53:17 PM||   2004-09-14 6:53:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 #78 ex-lib: The "values" espoused by the homosexual/lesbian activist lobby accomplishes the same thing as the terrorists want--i.e., the Destruction of Western Civilization.

#29 ex-lib: Zenster--HOW MANY TIMES DO I NEED TO SAY THIS: I never equated gay rights with terrorism. And you know it. Nor do I, or have I ever, exhibited any "virulent hatred or homosexuals" as you falsely assert.

ex-lib, your own words speak for themselves.
Posted by Zenster 2004-09-14 7:03:03 PM||   2004-09-14 7:03:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 ex-lib said (#30): are you saying that the mullahs actually need to deconstruct Muslim thinking to accomplish these atrocities? Yes, from the date of their birth to the date they become splodydopes. Personally, I believe morality and basic human goodness is innate -- so, those inborn constructs must be deconstructed to breed these monsters. If you look at what they teach their kids, what else could be produced by that swill?

Shipman said (#31): How much is your retainer Cingold? It depends . . . Tell me about your assets and how much this task means to you . . . ; )
Posted by cingold 2004-09-14 9:55:52 PM||   2004-09-14 9:55:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Sheesh .com, you're calling for WWIII here. That's fine as your considered opinion, but you must know that in the real world that dog won't hunt. This is still America, and half the population thinks the war in Iraq may have been a bad idea. Iraq already pushes the limits of our national willingness to embrace militancy.
Posted by Mister Write 2004-09-15 1:19:53 AM||   2004-09-15 1:19:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Ah Zenster, what did the homosexuals or lesbians ever do to you? Only the extremely religious or people who have been molested think that way. Shit, half the country is secretly sick and twisted in the bedroom. So, you wanna watch? That's what we'll have to do if we start legislating morals.

Leave 'em alone, let 'em do what they want in private. Long as they keep it quiet, and stay away from the kiddies.
Posted by Mister Write 2004-09-15 1:30:08 AM||   2004-09-15 1:30:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 Whoops, total mis-post. Ignore #35 please. Consider it off-topic.
Posted by Mister Write 2004-09-15 1:36:09 AM||   2004-09-15 1:36:09 AM|| Front Page Top

21:52 007
21:52 007
09:22 P_CE Reporter
00:52 P_CE Reporter
13:35 Anonymous6449
12:48 Anonymous6449
12:21 Anonymous6449
03:02 Anonymous6444
01:09 Anonymous6444
00:32 P&CE Reporter
00:32 P&CE Reporter
00:26 P&CE Reporter
00:26 P&CE Reporter
01:36 Mister Write
01:30 Mister Write
01:19 Mister Write
01:05 Mister Write
00:51 Super Hose
00:28 Mister Write
00:03 GK
23:57 Lucky
23:57 GK
23:56 Mister Write
23:52 Zenster









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com