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2004-08-13 Iraq-Jordan
Sadr unhurt, in talks to leave shrine: Iraq govt
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Posted by Fred 2004-08-13 07:26|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 is it just me or does this seem like a big mistake. Some bad guys are just better off dead.

It's like one of those slash and hash movies where they finally, finally, kill the bad guy, and as everyone breathes a sigh of relief, the "dead" bad guy pops back up and charges at them with a knife.

This is like Night of the Living Dead.
Posted by B 2004-08-13 7:33:37 AM||   2004-08-13 7:33:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'm choosing to refuse to believe this story. We can't be that stupid.
Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-08-13 7:43:30 AM||   2004-08-13 7:43:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 THE IRAQIS can't be that stupid... can they?
Posted by Tom 2004-08-13 8:10:27 AM||   2004-08-13 8:10:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Say what you want DPA, it is deja vu all over again.
Posted by Ol_Dirty_American 2004-08-13 8:12:43 AM||   2004-08-13 8:12:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 â€œWe will go after the criminal elements which have penetrated the Sadr movement, but not Moqtada,” He's wanted for murder and the last time I looked that was a crime. SIGH! The Arab rules of negotiation.
Posted by GK 2004-08-13 8:36:16 AM||   2004-08-13 8:36:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Here are the terms, Tater--You leave feet first on a slab, not breathing.
Posted by Dar  2004-08-13 9:41:09 AM||   2004-08-13 9:41:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 THE IRAQIS can't be that stupid... can they?
Yes.
Like .com pointed out yesterday.... Western logic does not apply.
Posted by Shipman 2004-08-13 10:12:29 AM||   2004-08-13 10:12:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 There's got to be something going on behind the scenes. Otherwise I'll have to give up on Allawi et al.
Posted by Spot  2004-08-13 10:26:09 AM||   2004-08-13 10:26:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Sometimes one has to wonder WHY people feel a need to make keeping law and order an unnecessarily difficult endeavor.

Thousands of Sadr supporters protested in front of the Green Zone compound housing the Iraqi government and the US embassy in Baghdad. Several Iraqi police took part, holding up posters of the cleric and putting them on their vehicle windows.

Not a good sign. Whoever is hiring these people isn't screening them thoroughly enough. Again, making things needlessly difficult for themselves.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-13 10:31:15 AM||   2004-08-13 10:31:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Points.
1. We know that it was intended that Iraqis, not Americans take the shrine, and there was concern about their training. Could this be an attempt at a breather while tactical training takes place?
2. Ceasefire in place - what are the arrangements for movement of food and water into the shrine? wounded out?
3. What is the nature of the talks? Welcoming Sadr as a political player with charges dropped, despite the second uprising and Sadrs military losses? Negotiations for orderly surrender? Something in between (IE political negotiations, but ones in which the Allawi position is stronger, recognizing Sadrs military defeat)
3. Need to reexamine and reshuffle Iraqi forces. Those in Najaf and Kut seem to have performed well. In Amara, OTOH, some ING seem to have threatened to switch sides, and in Baghdad mixed reports.
4. Need to slow down to manage the political reaction across the south. In April the strategy was to concentrate on the periphery, the smaller towns first, and go for the shrine towns last. This time it seems to have been to strike for the heart, for Sadr in Najaf. Meanwhile the smaller towns are, if not going to hell in a hand basket, in worse shape than Allawi and Coalition forces expected. Perhaps time to go back and deal with them?
5. Offer negotiations to show wavering govt members (Gawer, Jaafari) and others (Sistani, Moderessi) how reasonable Allawi is, and how inflexible Sadr is - THEN go in?
6. Perhaps new info has been gained on the tactical situation in the shrine, during yesterdays fighting (including perhaps info relating to the shrine being boobytrapped) Take a breather to modify tactical plans?

Theres ALOT going on here both politically and militarily. I would be slow to judge Allawi OR coalition strategy either way - could be stupid, could be brilliant, could be somewhere in between. We dont know - and may not know for some time.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 11:08:35 AM||   2004-08-13 11:08:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 BBC,Sadrs demands:
"Among them:

US forces must withdraw from Najaf
Sacred Shia sites must be administered by religious authorities
The release of captured fighters and amnesty for Sadr supporters
The restoration of basic services in Najaf


Earlier, Interior Minister Falah Naqib told the Reuters news agency the cleric would "not be touched" if he left the shrine peacefully.

"We will go after the criminal elements which have penetrated the Sadr movement, but not Moqtada," he said.

So = we have a fundamental clash - Sadr wants amnesty for ALL his followers. The govt will let Sadr go, and presumably will amnesty the surviving cannon fodder, but insists on arresting "criminal elements" presumably Sadrs key lieutenants. The idea being to defang and humiliate Sadr, without martyring him. Doesnt sound like hes interested in accepting that.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 11:27:23 AM||   2004-08-13 11:27:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 CNN:

In Kufa, a neighboring town north of Najaf, Iraqi security forces led a pre-dawn raid with U.S. Marines on a mosque described by Marine Capt. Carrie Batson as a "militia strong point."

"Iraqi security forces entered the mosque, cleared it of [al-Sadr's] militia men, killing several of them, also taking eight detainees," Batson said.

not sure of the timing, but it seems like the ceasefire MAY be limited to Najaf, allowing Iraqi and coalition forces to clean up elsewhere.

Also CNN reports that Sistani has sent a delegation to the talks.

My guess - Sistani, who DOESNT want a civil war among Shiites, who doesnt want Sadr to look like either a martyr or here, displacing the influencing of Sistani and other "moderate" clerics, insisted on these talks. Allawi is NOT strong enough politically to defy Sistani (and by extension, Jaafari) and so agreed to the talks. With direct representation for Sistani, Sis will be able to see whos being conciliatory and who's not.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 11:34:08 AM||   2004-08-13 11:34:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Mr. Davis TROLL 2004-08-13 11:55:04 AM||   2004-08-13 11:55:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Every yahoo, wannabe revolutionary in Iraq is learning right now that the consequences of challenging the central government ain't that bad. And Tater will be back again--with better organization, planning, and arms--whenever he thinks the time is right. Huge mistake not to finish off him and his movement right now.
Posted by sludj 2004-08-13 12:37:39 PM||   2004-08-13 12:37:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 mr. D yeah, although the Mosque in Kufa is not of national and international importance, and so wiring it to blow wasnt really a threat. we've attacked mosques before - the Shrine in Najaf is really something else, despite some people here who think Islam (sunni and shia) has an infinitude of holy places.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 12:54:55 PM||   2004-08-13 12:54:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The question is whether al-Sadr bites; was listening to 1010AM WINS or 820AM WCBS, neither was confident that he'd accept ...
Posted by Edward Yee  2004-08-13 12:59:18 PM|| [http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]  2004-08-13 12:59:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Muslims have only three Holy places:
Jerusalam, Mecca, and Madinah.
The rest is just fabrication. There are cults in Islam you know, just like any other religion.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 12:59:48 PM||   2004-08-13 12:59:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I have an Islamic holy place - my local Indian restaurant.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-08-13 1:04:49 PM||   2004-08-13 1:04:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Jerusalem isn't "holy" either--Mohammed just jumped on it to have something to fight about with the Jews!
As a Christian, the word "holy" doesn't really apply to Mooslim stuff.
Nor does the term "martyr."
I've never heard of anyone being called a martyr except Christians until 9/11.
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-08-13 1:05:29 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-08-13 1:05:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 gentle,

Suggesting that Shia Islam is a "cult", while Sunni Islam is "true Islam" does not make you sound either tolerant or gentle. I am not a muslim, and I am NOT going to judge which group of self proclaimed muslims is authentic. From my point of view Shia is just as authentic as Sunni, and as far as I can tell Shia muslims DO treat the resting place of Ali as a holy place - enough so that Shia from all over the world attempt to be buried near it, in a striking parallel to the Jews from all over the world buried on the Mount of Olives near the Temple Mount, and, AFAIK, for similar reasons.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 1:08:46 PM||   2004-08-13 1:08:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 with respect to Jerusalem-- the Koran doesn't mention Jerusalem but people say that when the Koran says Damascus it means Jerusalem--for the past 14 centuries Muslims have toggled between dissing Jerusalem (in about 9 of those centuries) and embracing it as holy (in the other 5 centuries).

and possibly Gentle considers Shia to be non Muslim (a number of Sunni consider the Shia to be kufr or worse).
Posted by mhw 2004-08-13 1:09:13 PM||   2004-08-13 1:09:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 GJ - yeah, and as a Jew, holy (kiddushin) doesnt apply to Muslim or Christian stuff, and Jews whove died for kiddush hashem - the sanctification of the name - ie the honor of G-d - are the only "martyrs". So if you are trying to tell Gentle that using her own definition of "holy" rather than that used by the folks in question is silly, i must agree with you entirely. Gentle is being very silly here.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 1:12:51 PM||   2004-08-13 1:12:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 mhw, IIUC the Koran says Muhammed ascended from "the farthest Mosque" in arabic Al aqsa. After the Arab conquest of Jerusalem by Caliph Omar(?) it was determined that the Temple Mount was what the Koran was referring to.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 1:15:12 PM||   2004-08-13 1:15:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 actually in centuries in which muslims didn't consider Jerusalem holy, Muslims dissed the Dome of the Rock for having un Islamic architecture (the Dome is in the middle, the building is 8 sided and it doesn't have tall minarets on each side).
Posted by mhw 2004-08-13 1:57:03 PM||   2004-08-13 1:57:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Okay, now, I'm just confused. Is he hurt, or isn't he? Make up your mind, people! This isn't Schrodinger's Cat, here!
Posted by The Doctor 2004-08-13 2:12:35 PM||   2004-08-13 2:12:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 There are cults in Islam you know, just like any other religion.

I'm beginning to believe that Islam itself is one big cult.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-13 2:22:35 PM||   2004-08-13 2:22:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 sadrs aides say hes hurt, Iraqi govt says no, and Fox reports a US official saying yes he is. Apparently not seriously though.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 2:50:05 PM||   2004-08-13 2:50:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Maybe just hurt enough for a Purple Heart Kerry style?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-13 4:58:24 PM||   2004-08-13 4:58:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-08-13 11:55:04 AM||   2004-08-13 11:55:04 AM|| Front Page Top

15:53 Mr. Davis
15:47 Mr. Davis
12:21 Mr. Davis
12:20 Mr. Davis
12:05 Mr. Davis
12:01 Mr. Davis
11:58 Mr. Davis
11:55 Mr. Davis
11:43 Mr. Davis
13:51 Half
13:51 Half
16:14 Frank G
16:06 peggy
13:02 Federal Jones
08:28 Frank G
08:25 Gentle
08:24 Frank G
08:19 Frank G
07:52 Gentle
07:39 john
06:31 Bulldog
06:26 Bulldog
03:15 .com
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