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2004-08-15 International-UN-NGOs
Ex Muslim has idea for turning Islam into Real Religion of Peace
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Posted by mhw 2004-08-15 12:09:08 AM|| || Front Page|| [11127 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 The matter being as such, one needs to ask the Muslims Apologists as to why these apparently hateful verses should remain in the Quran, when they are not supposed to be applicable in the lives of Muslims today.

One explanation I've heard is that this is due to the Middle East historically having been a land of extremely limited resources. In order for one person to prosper, another must suffer as there just isn't enough to go around. This zero-sum equation has been scaled up into an all encompassing philosophy that consequently enjoins its adherents to either co-opt nonbelievers or simply kill them as a threat to survival.

None of this takes into account the gigantic strides made since that time in the areas of irrigation, industrial grade agriculture, animal husbandry or the exceptionally deleterious effects obtained by ignoring an opposing culture's immense advantage in terms of weapons and tactics that could serve to annihilate any such minor threat that Islamism might pose.

Attempts by Islamists to transpose this ancient disregard for the value of human life onto modern secular societies will ultimately prove their downfall. Only the French most suicidal of opponents would willingly accept on face value the self-proclaimed superiority of a creed that idealizes a 7th century technological motif.

By maintaining such a hostile posture it is supposedly possible to overlook the complete lack of significant social progress or any evolution towards a more compatible ideology that might encourage coexistence at the cost of assimilation. This blind pursuit of doctrinal purity at any cost is reflected in an abject unwillingness to admit the virtues of any other culture's achievements or value.

In short, without any persuasive evidence of a genuine and authentic wish for reformation, such pigheadedness needs to be rewarded with swift and immediate death.
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 1:02:25 AM||   2004-08-15 1:02:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Zenster, I understand your feelings. It was a nice read until your very last sentence...which I do understand.

And yet, I ran across this remarkable story about traveling in Tunisia a few days ago at TechCentralStation.

There is another face to the Arab mind-set. Take a look, it's a fun read.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/081104C.html

Sorry, I tried to link it, but it didn't work for me, so you'll have to cut and past.

But have I ever sterred you wrong?....lol :>}

Really, it's a good, easy, fun read.

Best Wishes,

Traveller
Posted by Traveller 2004-08-15 1:20:44 AM||   2004-08-15 1:20:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Travelling in Tunisia:

"The next night in the Berber town of Matmata we met a pair of German travelers -- Michael and Jung. Both were in their 30s, like us. They were great guys. Traveled every year together, always to Muslim countries. Thought Europe was boring. Hoped, like us, to travel to Libya next. Tried, like us, and failed to get into Libya this trip. We shared a hookah with them, and that's when Shelly asked them the question: "Are you two ever invited to sit down for tea?"

They looked at each other, surprised at the question.

"By Tunisians?" Jung asked.

"By Tunisians," she said.

And they looked at each other again. "No," they both said."


"No," they both said. "They prefer to blow us up when we visit synagogues."
Posted by Bryan 2004-08-15 1:41:06 AM||   2004-08-15 1:41:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Touche`, Bryan, Touche`. I suppose I deserved that...lol. I didn't say that it was all sweetness and light, just that it was an interesting read and a different perspective.

We can't kill 'em all brother, not even the 10% of the population as would be the case in a WWII type conflict or in the US civil war, (actually I think that was closer to 6%).

I posted the other day on seeing the HBO film, A Death in Gaza, and while my take would certainly be different than most people...(close up shot of 10 to 12 year old boy that wants to be martyred)...Okay, kill him.

The truth is that not even Israel can kill all the young boys that have grown up twisted in Gaza and on the West Bank...let alone throughout the Muslim world. I'm not being difficult about this, as a practical question, it simply can't be done.

Truly this article has it right, as the tree is bent, so it will grow. It still seems curious to me that Israel did not take over the schools and print the text books and hire the teachers in the WB and Gaza.

It is the only solution for Israel and the United States.

Best wishes,

Traveller
Posted by Traveller 2004-08-15 1:59:05 AM||   2004-08-15 1:59:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 It was a nice read until your very last sentence...which I do understand.

Traveller, you may be interpreting my statement as applying to all Islam. It does not, at least, not yet. A few more atrocities or a single terrorist nuclear attack and that will probably change. As of now, my words are directed strictly at Islamists who are unable to accept any concept of reformation or secular coexistence.
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 2:00:30 AM||   2004-08-15 2:00:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "Truly this article has it right, as the tree is bent, so it will grow. It still seems curious to me that Israel did not take over the schools and print the text books and hire the teachers in the WB and Gaza."

Traveller, this wouldn't work. A similar thing was tried during Apartheid in 1976 when the govt. wanted to educate black children in Afrikaans - the language of white Afrikaner SA. It led to the Soweto Riots.

Besides, it's up to the Palestinians themselves to de-indoctrinate their children.

All the best,

Posted by Bryan 2004-08-15 2:13:14 AM||   2004-08-15 2:13:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 The truth is that not even Israel can kill all the young boys that have grown up twisted in Gaza and on the West Bank...let alone throughout the Muslim world. I'm not being difficult about this, as a practical question, it simply can't be done.

From all outward appearances, it would seem as though the Muslims will accomplish this without much help from the Israelis. The death toll of Muslim on Muslim violence (e.g., Iran vs Iraq, Darfur, Pakistan, Afghanistan) far exceeds anything unleashed upon them by outside forces.

PS: The old saying is: "As the twig is bent, so grows the tree."
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 2:33:47 AM||   2004-08-15 2:33:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Traveller

his is Tunisia, a country where fundamentalists have been kept in check, (meaning that they probably never got so much contraction), who has the most liberal woman status in the Maghreb and probably in the whole Arab world (to begin with poligamy is illegal AFAIK).

Since a good part of their revenue comes from tourism they cannot afford the luxury of hating and dreaming of world domination whiile sitting in their oil. The jewel of their industry is their textile industry who works mainly as subcontractors for the Jewish firms of the Marais in Paris.
Posted by JFM  2004-08-15 3:01:05 AM||   2004-08-15 3:01:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 JMF and Zenster, you both make excellent points. I agree with both of your positions...but it also seems necessary to keep in perspective that the entire Muslim world is not at war with us, and we don't want them at war with us.

Now Fallujah and Najaf are an entirely different argument. UPI has a nice and detailed story on the new trouble in Fallujah, and I have written my perscription for that area of the conflict. If I see that story posted, I'll also put up my reciept. Not for a victory there, but for honor, between conflicting soldiers.

Best Wishes,

Traveller
Posted by Traveller 2004-08-15 3:11:53 AM||   2004-08-15 3:11:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 ... but it also seems necessary to keep in perspective that the entire Muslim world is not at war with us, and we don't want them at war with us.

Traveller, while you are more than clear, it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish between those Muslims that do not seek conflict with the West and those that do. This is not due to any willful confusion on the part of non-Islamic people. There is an ultimately damning lack of both condemnation and concerted action towards the expulsion of violent jihadis from many of the world's Muslim cultures. This is no fault of the West and cannot possibly be laid at the door of secular cultures.

It is incumbent upon the whole of Islam to both combat terrorism and excise from their doctrine those passages which assert the usefulness of vioent jihad. Nothing of the sort has been forthcoming on any sort of scale to convince even the most generous of observers.

There is not one thing that any outsiders can do to promote the necessary degree of change within Islam. It must be voluntary, authentic and sincerely motivated from within or else it is meaningless. Coercion and incentives are a flawed approach to correcting this dangerous problem as they will not render the vitally needed changes.

The West cannot merely bide its time in the blithe hope that Islam will remedy these deficiencies on their own. Such laxity will only assure more atrocities and the eventual deployment of nuclear or biochemical attacks against secular societies. This is not an option. An agressive campaign of eradication must be waged against hostile elements within Islam.

In the absence of any significant realignment or alteration in how Muslims define themselves, it will eventually have to be assumed that Islam and terrorism are inseperable. While this is not entirely the case as of now, little time is left for Muslims to begin a vigorous program of distinguishing themselves as opponents and, finally, as enemies of violent jihad.

Should this prove impossible, there is nothing to separate Islam from the Islamists and all of them will need to die as a result. This world has no room nor even the need for such a destructive meme in its midst. Centuries of grueling progress are at stake and precious little benefit can come of accommodating the tyrannical whims of Islamists or their silent accomplices.

What remains certain is that this is a fight to the death. Islamism must be exterminated. There is no choice in the matter when global application of Sharia law stands as the only alternative. Whosoever advocates universal theocratic rule is an enemy of all other cultures. Islamism most definitely qualifies for this definition, and even Islam as a whole with its glaring absence of action towards ending terrorism is rapidly stepping into this selfsame station.

Secular nations cannot be blamed for confusing a criminal element with those who abet same. It is for Islam to strive towards reform or inevitably seek its own demise. Should such reformation turn out to be impossible, anihilation is all that awaits. I cannot have mercy upon those who would show me none either. Islam must reform or die, no options.
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 3:48:21 AM||   2004-08-15 3:48:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Well I will say this, This thread has brought out the absolute best thinking and writing possible on the subject. For that Kudos to everyone, (of course there's always good writing at Rantburg...a little over the top at times, but still good, which is why thoughtful people from all over the world read it).

What you are really saying, Zenster, (if I may paraphrase you...lol) is that Radical Islam must reform, and in that we entirely agree. In an ever shrinking world, I want as few as enemies as possible. I agree that Islam does not, because of the quality of weapons available, have the centuries to reform itself as was necessary for Christianity to leave the Dark Ages.

This will take time, maybe with luck we'll get most of it done in decades, and nothing will happen in these ensuing years of patient pressure on Islam.

Hope is a thing with feathers.

(And nobody here get out their shotguns either...lol)

Best Wishes,

Traveller

Posted by Traveller 2004-08-15 4:18:01 AM||   2004-08-15 4:18:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 I agree that Islam does not, because of the quality of weapons available, have the centuries to reform itself as was necessary for Christianity to leave the Dark Ages.

This is the crux of the matter. Because of how WMDs have proliferated and the determination of Islamists to obtain (and use) them, sand now runs through the hourglass at a terrifying rate. We most certainly do not have "decades," only a few years, more like. It is almost surreal to consider that some 1.5 BILLION lives hinge upon Islam abandoning and, finally, actively combating terrorism. Yet, if it is a choice between those 1.5 billion people and global theocracy reversing the last 12 centuries of progress, Muslims can bend over and kiss their collective Islamic @sses goodbye. I would mourn the loss of so much humanity, but not the extinction of such a threat to our entire planet.
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 4:44:48 AM||   2004-08-15 4:44:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Of the 1.5 billion Muslims on the planet, I've heard of about ten who've condemned the terror committed in their name. But let's be generous and assume that 100 have in fact spoken out.

That leaves 1 499 999 900 Muslims who:
* Are terorists
* Support terror
* Are indifferent to terror
* Have never heard of terror
* Are against terror but will not speak up

I don't see any other options.
Posted by Bryan 2004-08-15 5:25:57 AM||   2004-08-15 5:25:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Did you know that the prophet used to visit sick Jews?
Inspite of the fact that they were the ones who hurt him most, and he could have banished them from Madinah in a minute?
AND that the verse quated is misleading, you shouldn't read part of the verse only.
It was probably said about taking sides in a war.
Posted by Anonymous6078 2004-08-15 5:33:45 AM||   2004-08-15 5:33:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Anonymous6078,

The prophet doesn't get credit for the good deed of visiting sick Jews, when afterward he had them and their families murdered.
Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-15 7:26:19 AM||   2004-08-15 7:26:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 He had the men who insisted on fighting AND betrayed him, inspite of the treaty, murdered. He did not murder the families.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 7:42:07 AM||   2004-08-15 7:42:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 He had the men who insisted on fighting AND betrayed him, inspite of the treaty, murdered. He did not murder the families.

What happened to the families, then? Whither went the Jews of Arabia, who'd been there since the time of Solomon?
Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-15 8:04:57 AM||   2004-08-15 8:04:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 They went to Khaibar. When that was taken too, they moved away.
Did Moses come before Solomon then?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 8:12:42 AM||   2004-08-15 8:12:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 a new day, same idjit
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 8:30:11 AM||   2004-08-15 8:30:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 I'll say!
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 8:33:54 AM||   2004-08-15 8:33:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Plenty of Mohammed's murderous trash talking in the Hadith too. Does he propose to prune the Hadith too? A whole new school of revisionist Islamic theology would have to be set up to get (some)Muslims to negate the Jihadist verses.

The world doesn't have enough time for such a school to get organized and to re-educate Muslim minds.
Posted by dennisw 2004-08-15 8:39:18 AM||   2004-08-15 8:39:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 ex muslim huh? Apostacy/murtad has a price in the Religion of Peace, right? doesn't he have to be killed? Your weak-minded drivel and lies will be exposed, Gentle
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 8:40:16 AM||   2004-08-15 8:40:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 I do not think there is anyone now with the power to say that he is to be killed. They should try to convince him to get back though.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 8:43:16 AM||   2004-08-15 8:43:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 "the men who insisted on fighting AND betrayed him"

That's a jewel - how can one "betray" when one does not believe? This is incredibly flawed "logic" - shame, troll.

"they moved away"

You truly are a simple-minded cloistered baby factory and pet creature. Does your Lord and Master realize you surf the 'Net and interact with men? Your toying with thoughts and things "intellectual" alone are worthy of a thrashing of you "non-sensitive" parts. Surely you have a brood of Muslings to attend to. Run along, now, and be sure to give him a good wet blowjob so he may forgive your absurd pretentions and scandalous behavior. There's a nice dog. :)
Posted by Brutal 2004-08-15 8:52:22 AM||   2004-08-15 8:52:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 They betrayed him by promising to be on his side during the war, then leaving the muslims back unprotected, and conspiring with the enemy.
AND you need lots of soap to wash your mouth.
I'm not married, I'm still a student.

Frank, do you really like this kind of talk on your site?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 8:58:59 AM||   2004-08-15 8:58:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Not my site and it was not my post - you deal with it, it was directed to you, not me.
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 9:01:42 AM||   2004-08-15 9:01:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 What a hero!
Whose site is it anyway?
They told me it was yours.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:03:40 AM||   2004-08-15 9:03:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 A student. How yummy! I rented a wife who sounded much like you in Dubai, once. Very compliant - and I made it a point to work her over. In short order, there was no undiscovered territory remaining - no frontier to challenge and entice. Alas, she became boring in the extreme rather quickly. There was something missing... a brain and individual will.
Posted by Brutal 2004-08-15 9:05:53 AM||   2004-08-15 9:05:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Better hit the books, Gentle. If you flunk out, they'll revoke your visa.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-08-15 9:05:53 AM||   2004-08-15 9:05:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 just like you - they lied :-)
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 9:07:38 AM||   2004-08-15 9:07:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Mrs. D. :What visa?
Frank:
Who does it belong to?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:08:47 AM||   2004-08-15 9:08:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 you're a student - do your own f'n research - I'd start on the front page, dimwit
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 9:10:09 AM||   2004-08-15 9:10:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Allah (pbuh) Allan, of course, as if you didn't know.
Posted by Brutal 2004-08-15 9:10:50 AM||   2004-08-15 9:10:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 So you're in the Caliphate? What school?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-08-15 9:12:45 AM||   2004-08-15 9:12:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Zayed University.
Check it out on the web.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:13:52 AM||   2004-08-15 9:13:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 So what name does Fred Pruitt use on the site?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:14:59 AM||   2004-08-15 9:14:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 "So what name does Fred Pruitt use on the site?"

Daddy - you should get to know him, he's gentle, too.
Posted by Brutal 2004-08-15 9:16:12 AM||   2004-08-15 9:16:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Thank you
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:17:58 AM||   2004-08-15 9:17:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 An all girls school. Be working for an all girls company after graduation?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-08-15 9:18:31 AM||   2004-08-15 9:18:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Nope!
Besides, most of my teachers are males.
Americans, too.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:19:49 AM||   2004-08-15 9:19:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 If there is an all girls company, I haven't heard of it.
It depends on the pay, the challanges.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:21:27 AM||   2004-08-15 9:21:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 You realize of course that every time you post you are pinning a "Kick me" sign to your back? Have you had ANY critical thinking courses? Until you can debate a point using your own brainpower you will mocked here and not debated in good faith.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 9:22:07 AM||   2004-08-15 9:22:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 Lol! "working" ????

Surely you jest, Miz D! A "job" implies some rather pedestrian aspects which, I suspect, do not apply to Gentle. "Kept" is likely Gentle's future occupation.
Posted by Brutal 2004-08-15 9:23:14 AM||   2004-08-15 9:23:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 Whose brainpower do you think I'm using?
besides, most people here don't "debate". They mock, and insult.
Or is that the way things are done in America?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:24:40 AM||   2004-08-15 9:24:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 "So what name does Fred Pruitt use on the site?"

Fred.
Posted by Dave D. 2004-08-15 9:25:36 AM||   2004-08-15 9:25:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 You think that I will be a stay at home mom?
You have to be kidding me.
As if!
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:25:56 AM||   2004-08-15 9:25:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 (Yawn)
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 9:26:33 AM||   2004-08-15 9:26:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 Dum-de-dum-de-dum........(drumming fingers)....
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 9:27:40 AM||   2004-08-15 9:27:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 I know.
You made me bored.
Goodness, you must feel sleepy all the time.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:27:41 AM||   2004-08-15 9:27:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 I don't think there is so much reason to bash Gentle. She is a muslim girl studying in Abu Dhabi and may very well represent the better future of the Arab world. You can't blame her for defending her religion and while some of her comments may sound a bit naive, I don't see bad faith in her or any sympathy for Islamists.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 9:35:03 AM||   2004-08-15 9:35:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#51 TGA - see the "Iraqis to attack in Najaf" post - she doesn't know what shrine is in Najaf - Gentle is a fraud
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 9:37:48 AM||   2004-08-15 9:37:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 Thank you.
I have this feeling that you are in the U.A.E., or how would you know that there is a second branch of the university in Abu Dhabi?
I study in Dubai though.
If my guess is right, then you can put lots of people here to right.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:38:11 AM||   2004-08-15 9:38:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#53 Probably something to do with the Shia.
Why should I know of it?
Do you expect Catholics to know everything about protestents?
I told you : Najaf is not a Holy city.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:39:33 AM||   2004-08-15 9:39:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#54 Gentle - I knew a (very) few young Saudi women who "worked" at Aramco - solely because they had fathers with oodles of wasta. They were resented by the Saudi males - because they took a job away from the men who had real obligations. They were treated as a joke. Nothing of substance was assigned and nothing they had to say (in meetings, when they were so brave as to speak up) was given credence or weight. Barely tolerated covers the attitude. I assume you either do not think much of your sisters in Saudi - or you empathize with them in their Wahhabi bondage.

I could stop debate dead in its tracks there by noting that the Saudis were doomed -- they threw half of their country's brainpower away at birth.

How do you reconcile their circumstances vs. yours without some measure of condemnation of Wahhabism? Would you trade places? Lol, you would, indeed, be momentarily outraged to find you would have no voice, whatsoever, regards your future. You would be a pet. A toy. A baby factory. I said momentarily because such insolence would not be tolerated. And I know what I'm talking about because one of these very sweet and intelligent young ladies became, within the limits of the workplace, like a daughter to me. She even made me blush a few times with her candor and resentment.
Posted by .com 2004-08-15 9:39:56 AM||   2004-08-15 9:39:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#55 Oh really?
What kind of a fraud?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:41:53 AM||   2004-08-15 9:41:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#56 They hate the Wahabis there .com.
most of them are extremists. I told you that.
I do NOT agree with the way things are in Saudi.
If it wasn't for Mecca and Madina I wouldn't go there.
Happy?
Besides, Mecca and Madina are diffrent. They were forced some time ago to join Saudi arabia against their will.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:44:27 AM||   2004-08-15 9:44:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#57 I guess you're feeling a bit touchy. I lived there - they (the men) don't hate Wahhabis - it's pretty much all they know until they reach a certain age - their 30's at least - when they have the means to travel. The women hate it when they're young - before they've been beaten into submission.

"Besides, Mecca and Madina are diffrent. They were forced some time ago to join Saudi arabia against their will."

This logic also applies to ALL of the vaunted sacred lands of Islam.
Posted by .com 2004-08-15 9:51:45 AM||   2004-08-15 9:51:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#58 Gentle, I'm indeed a bit amazed that you know nothing of Najaf. Even as a Sunni you must have heard of Shi'ites. They are "hardly a cult that came up later". And even a Catholic would have heard of Luther.

No I'm not in the Emirates although I know them (including Dubai, where the Saudis go for booze and girls).

.com, you are surely right but that may change. Women who get to study in the Islamic world are usually brighter than all those rich men's sons who just waste a bit of time before Daddy gets them a nominal "job" to boss around Pakistani or Philippine workers (in Saudi at least).

What subjects do you study, Gentle?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 9:54:11 AM||   2004-08-15 9:54:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#59 The same subjcts any American student would study, Plus three added courses (During the whole 4 years) 2 are: Islamic study & 1 is: arabic.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 9:57:56 AM||   2004-08-15 9:57:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#60 "Islamic study"? And no mentioning of Najaf yet?
A bit selective methinks.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 10:04:57 AM||   2004-08-15 10:04:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#61 THERE IS NOTHING HOLY ABOUT NAJAF.
we only have three holy places:
Mecca, Medina, and palastine.
The Shia don't even believe in the prophet!
GET IT?
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:07:42 AM||   2004-08-15 10:07:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#62 I mean Jerusalem, not all of Palastine.
Of course all mos. and so on are holy, but nothing like those 3.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:09:27 AM||   2004-08-15 10:09:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#63 When did Palestine become a holy place? I'm merely an infidel and know that ya'll think the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is where Ol' Mo' jumped into heaven.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 10:11:04 AM||   2004-08-15 10:11:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#64 Good. Why ask when you know the answer?
You're not an Infidel, are you?
'coz that is diffrent from being a mushrek.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:12:42 AM||   2004-08-15 10:12:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#65 For one who portrayed debate as desirable, you certainly haven't the gumption for it. GET IT?

Have a nice life. Don't forget to wash your mind out with a few hours of Qu'uran - to remove the telltale effects of interacting with infidel men.
Posted by .com 2004-08-15 10:13:00 AM||   2004-08-15 10:13:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#66 Hey, you're a student. Why not compare and contrast Islam and Christianity?
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 10:13:31 AM||   2004-08-15 10:13:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#67 Gentle, with all respect, but you should fire the guy who teaches you "Islamic Study".

Of course Najaf is not "holy" to Sunnis, but it is to Shi'ites.

The Shi'ites don't believe in the prophet? Sorry but WHAT are you smoking in Dubai?
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 10:15:08 AM||   2004-08-15 10:15:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#68 Already done it.
I discovered that Catholicism is very near to the teachings of Islam.
Closer than anything else.
Why?
By the way:
We, Emaratis, all are students. There is hardly anyone who does not study or work in the U.A.E.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:16:18 AM||   2004-08-15 10:16:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#69 You seem versed in the Koran. How about reading the Bible for research? Oh, you can't get one there?
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 10:16:41 AM||   2004-08-15 10:16:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#70 I'm smoking fresh air. You need some!
Yes, most Shiaas do not believe in the prophet.
They think That Ali should have been chosen instead.
Look it up.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:18:02 AM||   2004-08-15 10:18:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#71 Were you told that or were you allowed to research it and come to that decision yourself?
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 10:18:14 AM||   2004-08-15 10:18:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#72 Gentle, honey, Catholicism has zip in common with Islam. You really should get that refund on your education tuition
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 10:18:16 AM||   2004-08-15 10:18:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#73 I have read parts of the bible.
I loved "Ye shall know the truth..."
I mean, you should read it.
If you understand the truth, that Islam is peaceful, it will set you free.

WR: I researched it and came to that decision, of course.
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:21:29 AM||   2004-08-15 10:21:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#74 Gentle, Shi'a Muslims accept Ali, the son-in-law and cousin of the Prophet Muhammad, as the legal successor of Muhammad and disregard three of the other four caliphs who succeeded him. They also regard twelve descendants of Ali as Imams, or spiritual successors of the Prophet.

I suggest you skip "Islamic Study". Looks like you waste your time there.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 10:22:39 AM||   2004-08-15 10:22:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#75 I posted an article, where is it?
You are going to love it!
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:22:51 AM||   2004-08-15 10:22:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#76 Is not....is too....is not....is too..." Does not make a debate. I salute your ability to say nothing of substance.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 10:24:19 AM||   2004-08-15 10:24:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#77 TGA:
That is what the "Ethnaashar" believe. They are the most moderate of Shia. The rest believe what I wrote earlier.
Try the "Fatimyyeen".
Posted by Gentle 2004-08-15 10:24:47 AM||   2004-08-15 10:24:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#78 I wonder, if Wahhabism isn't your cup o' tea, what about the Taliban? Just thinking aloud, since your Govt recognized the Taliban and the differences between them and the most extreme Wahhabis is, shall we say, mere window dressing...
Posted by .com 2004-08-15 10:33:45 AM||   2004-08-15 10:33:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#79 Just as the Wahhabis, the Taliban are also such peaceful people. Tolerance. Love of life. Peace. It's what we love about Islam, in fact.
Posted by .com 2004-08-15 10:43:00 AM||   2004-08-15 10:43:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#80 The largest Shi'ite sect is that of the Ithna Ashariyah or Twelvers, who recognize the legitimacy of a succession of twelve Alid claimants (beginning with Ali himself) who are known as imams. The term "Shia" is often taken to be synonymous with the Twelvers. There are also several forms of Sevener Shi'a sects, the largest being known as Ismailis. The Seveners and Twelvers differ regarding the rights of succession after the death of Muhammad, but they agree that the Sunni have usurped the rightful authority of Muhammad's family descendants. Other minor groups exist that grew out of Shiism, such as the Zaidis who believe in the same first four Imams as the Twelvers and Seveners, but differ on the fifth. They are thus known as Fivers.


They all believe in Mohammed. It's about his succession (and other things) where they disagree.

Those who don't believe in Mohammed are not Muslims. That would be like saying that there are Christians who don't believe in Jesus.
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 10:45:06 AM||   2004-08-15 10:45:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#81 Crickets chirping in Dubai...
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 11:32:53 AM||   2004-08-15 11:32:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#82 her Master got home and shut off the internet
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 11:42:36 AM||   2004-08-15 11:42:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#83 Hell, arguing morality with a burka babe is like discussing geology with an earthworm. Difference is I'm kinda a crazy about red wigglers.
Posted by Shipman 2004-08-15 11:53:38 AM||   2004-08-15 11:53:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#84 I don't think she's a burka babe. But it never ceases to amaze me how little people know about their own "truth".

And I was about to tell her about those grapes n'stuff...
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 11:59:18 AM||   2004-08-15 11:59:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#85 Nothing like pointing out sectarian intolerance within Islam to an uninformed Muslim apologist.
Sometimes what looks like ignorance is in reality stark hatred---against the Shia, the Jews, the list goes on.
Posted by Asedwich  2004-08-15 12:17:22 PM||   2004-08-15 12:17:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 Ignorance => Hatred
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 12:21:40 PM||   2004-08-15 12:21:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 Actaully, as a Catholic, I know quite a lot about Protestants. They are, after all, Christians and we have the important things common at the core of our beliefs (with the exception of some odd folks like the Adventists, Jehova Witnesses and Mormons).

And as for the lack of responses from "Gentle"

Guys, learn to read a clock. Remember they are 2 or 3 hours ahead of UCT - meaning a good 7-8 hours ahead of Central Daylight time.

As for Islam, TGA paints a fairly accurate picture of the difereing sects.

The problem for Islam is that they have no central Church to trigger and sustain a reform (either as a driving force in response to the reformation, or as a "big target" for the reformers to rebel against).

There is no central repository for apostolic continuation from the Prophet - only a bunch of competing claims. There is also no Magesterium from which the central teachings can flow

You shoudl remember that prior to the Reformation, there were over 1400 years of solidification, clarification and refining of the Christian faith under the guidance of the one, apostolic and universal (catholic - note the lower case 'c') Church.

Even today, all the Christian protestant churches support the most vital Dogmas established by the Catholic Church (although they may dispute Doctrines and Opinions).

There is no such unity for Islam, which is why I hold out little hope for any meaningful reformation. Add to that some of the Sutras and quotes in the Qo'ran that plainly incite "cultural racism" and violence toward outsiders, and the accumulation of power inthe hands of Imams. And on top of that there are the defects of culture: the Arab "strong man" culture that has grown a scaffolding to support the mysogynistic views and a repressive & primitve society that has yet to truly evolve from Tribalism and Feudalism (in terms of people's rights and allegiances).

In short, given the cultural embedding of Islam into Arabism, and the words themsleves and the ability of local Imams to twist the Qo'ran to suit any evil they wish to promote...

In my observation (admittedly incomplete) there really isnt much hope for Islam other than a near extinguishment of it to the point where it can be reformed by a much smaller and more concentrated set of practicioners who are broken free from the shackles of fundamentalism and Arabism.

The odd thing is that the collision with the modern secular world is tearing Islam to pieces since it is fundamentally incompatable. And that, oddly enough, will eventually lead to the conditions for a reformation, if the current militantism in Shi'a Iran, the fundamentalist Madrassa hate factories in Pakistan, and the Wahabbist Sunni Fascists can be pushed out of existence or at least into irrelevance (and exposed as the political, not religious, movement that they are).
Posted by Oldspook 2004-08-15 12:49:13 PM||   2004-08-15 12:49:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 As i've said before, reforming Islam is a long shot but it isn't impossible.

There are some positive indicators (yes I know the negative indicators are greater) for example,

1. Apostate groups have organized on the internet
2. The Ahmayaddi (who have stated that the violence verses of the Quran are no longer valid and who pretty much deny the entire hadith) are growing faster than any other Muslim groups in Britain and India
3. Scholarly work is finally proceeding on the Quran and this work is demonstrating that individual verses of the the Quran changed during the first 100 years of Islam as well as showing that some parts of the Quran were originally written down in aramaic rather than arabic.
Posted by mhw 2004-08-15 1:22:26 PM||   2004-08-15 1:22:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 Gentle #35 said that she studies at Zayed University in Dubai.

So that's what they are smoking there (COFFEE ALERT!)
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 3:41:18 PM||   2004-08-15 3:41:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 The problem with all this religious stuff is not religion, it is MONEY, and that comes from OIL. Nobody gave a rodent's behind what the ME did until they started using all their left over cash to fund mardrassas to twist the minds of the young to hate the West and want its destruction. Now we have thousands of young people out there with no future except jihad and martydom. In some ways one can see the source of their anger and that is with the degeneracy of the West. But what to do about it is the big issue. We have to look at the big picture and the long term. One of the things we have to do is to interrupt the cycle of brainwashing of another generation, and that involves interrupting funding to the hate schools. If practioners of Islam don't clean up their act, then events will force the rest of the world to clean it up for them, and it won't be pretty for anyone on either side.
Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-15 3:59:33 PM||   2004-08-15 3:59:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 I'm curious about Gentle and his/her claims. Gentle claims to have been taught a peaceful and tolerant version of Islam, but shows some rather spectacular gaps in knowledge.
If the only way to find a moderate Islam is to leave out large chunks of history and pretend the Shi'ites aren't really Muslim, I'm afraid I don't have a lot of hope for reformation. But, maybe somebody is trying...
Gentle claims to be at Zayed University. I've never been to the MidEast, and in any event I generally get to Rantburg at a relatively late hour. Have any of the earlybirds been in that neck of the woods, and know some obscure detail about the area that we could quiz Gentle on to test his/her bona fides?
Posted by James  2004-08-15 5:09:11 PM|| [http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]  2004-08-15 5:09:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 After review of today's discussion I am reasonably sure that Gentle is actually Antiwar. I guess she tired of passing herself off as a Australian Christian and decided to try a Malibu Barbie Burka on for size. The rhetoric is similar although without the potty mouth of Antiwar.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-15 5:10:43 PM||   2004-08-15 5:10:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 Alaska Paul, I don't know about you, but I don't believe I qualify as degenerate....there are still too many things my husband has to explain to me ;-)

Joking aside, I don't agree that West, as such, is degenerate, although certain countries and subcultures qualify. If the West truly were degenerate, a terror campaign would be unnecessary -- time alone would suffice for it to fall under its own weight.

No, they are angry because they are the Chosen of the True Faith, and those uppity unbelievers are wealthier, healthier and happier, and winning the war Allah is supposed to ensure they win -- not the way Things Are Supposed To Be (especially wealthier! and, of course, winning the war).
Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-15 7:16:30 PM||   2004-08-15 7:16:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 You maybe right whitecolar red.... the mouthings do have the same cadence count.
Posted by Shipman 2004-08-15 7:55:45 PM||   2004-08-15 7:55:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 "the mouthings do have the same cadence count."

along with the same mouth-breathing
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 7:57:51 PM||   2004-08-15 7:57:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 #87 In my observation (admittedly incomplete) there really isnt much hope for Islam other than a near extinguishment of it to the point where it can be reformed by a much smaller and more concentrated set of practicioners who are broken free from the shackles of fundamentalism and Arabism.

The odd thing is that the collision with the modern secular world is tearing Islam to pieces since it is fundamentally incompatable. And that, oddly enough, will eventually lead to the conditions for a reformation, if the current militantism in Shi'a Iran, the fundamentalist Madrassa hate factories in Pakistan, and the Wahabbist Sunni Fascists can be pushed out of existence or at least into irrelevance (and exposed as the political, not religious, movement that they are).

Old Spook, I did my best to get some jabs in early and often, but your own prognostications are among some of the best thought out and most likely to occur, aside from flat-out nuclear anihilation. Thank you for taking the time to share them. I, for one, really appreciate it.

Gentle, when you get a chance, let us know how many synagogues there are in the Emirates, all right? Here's some of the hogwash from (TGA's link) the Zayed University website:

Arab Jews better off under Islamic rule
Abu Dhabi |By A Staff Reporter | 20-06-2002

A two-day symposium in the capital has concluded that Arab Jews have enjoyed greater fundamental rights and freedom under Arab Islamic rule than under Israeli Zionist regimes.

Participants of a symposium on The Killing of Jews in The Arab World, held at the Zayed Centre for Genocide Coordination and Follow-Up, said in their final communique that Arab Jews have always been denied their fundamental rights and freedom under Israeli regimes ...

The participants also referred to the peaceful co-existence of Muslims and Jews in Arab Muslim countries, where Jews are treated equally and enjoy their fundamental rights and freedom, which they cannot under Israeli regimes.
EMPHASIS ADDED

Does anyone besides rabid anti-Semites actually belive this unadulterated hogwash? Gentle, how can anybody call an institution that churns out such vile filth a "school?" I pity you.
Posted by Zenster 2004-08-15 9:01:34 PM||   2004-08-15 9:01:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 it's a school in the same sense a Madrassa is
Posted by Frank G  2004-08-15 9:05:47 PM||   2004-08-15 9:05:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 I first thought it was Scrappleface..lol
Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-15 9:11:48 PM||   2004-08-15 9:11:48 PM|| Front Page Top

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