Article

2004-08-13 Britain

Abu Hamza's Thoughts About Moslems' Love of Death

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-08-13 2:00:25 AM|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Is it possible that Emmeline Grangerford was Palestinian? Here is one of her poems:

O no. Then list with tearful eye,
Whilst I his fate do tell.
His soul did from this cold world fly,
By falling down a well.
They got him out and emptied him;
Alas it was too late;
His spirit had gone for to sport aloft
In the realms of the good and great.

Sounds like she loved death as well.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-13 2:22:56 AM|| 2004-08-13 2:22:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The Hookless wonder rides again.. Awww, I kinda miss him..

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 4:26:04 AM|| 2004-08-13 4:26:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 That is touching.
You know some of you should visit a graveyard, it tends to soften your hearts. At least that is what I heard. and please don't crack any jokes about the graves of the 11/9 victims. That would be cruel, and so was thier death.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 5:16:10 AM|| 2004-08-13 5:16:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Gentle - do you sympathise with all this talk of loving death, illness etc.? If it's so widely held amongst Muslim fundamentalists, does that explain Iran's seemingly suicidal belligerence towards the West? They actually want to be nuked? Do you, yourself, look forward to your own death?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 5:26:32 AM|| 2004-08-13 5:26:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 A muslim should not throw himself onto death. It is diffrent than giving life freely to protect one's values and home.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 5:50:08 AM|| 2004-08-13 5:50:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Heh, I can imagine what the 'sisters' are making Abu do with his stumps inside Belmarsh. ..faster Abu, harder Abu, deeper Abu... ugh

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 6:08:55 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:08:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 That is because you do not have a very nice, or polite immagination.
AND because I just proved you wrong, you poor thing.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 6:25:33 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:25:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Can I detect from the condescending tone that you're:
a. Muslim
b. Full of shit
c. In need of a day off

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 6:47:04 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:47:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 No. Sorry!

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 6:48:36 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:48:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Gentle, if you're in the mood for proving things, can you demonstrate that Allah is more than just a figment of Muslim imagination?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 6:52:31 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:52:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Do you believe in God?

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 6:54:02 AM|| 2004-08-13 6:54:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Oh, no!
Not Gentle!!!
Islam is the suckiest religion on the planet--get used to it!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 7:07:57 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-13 7:07:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Nice to meet you too.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 7:09:13 AM|| 2004-08-13 7:09:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 I'm agnostic. Based on my own life's experience, the only rational conclusion I can come to (which is, I'll admit, a fairly optimistic one), is that there is just no tangible proof of a divinity or higher power. That doesn't mean there isn't one, just that the evidence is lacking. No organised religion I have encountered or know of offers what I would consider to be anything approaching sufficient evidence to substantiate its claims as representing 'God' or 'gods'. Books alone mean nothing. As far as I'm concerned, the world's holy books probably spawned from as much genuinely divine inspiration as Das Kapital. They perform the same function, which is to attempt to capture, codify and sanctify memes proscribing acceptable conduct in a successfuly functioning society. Some work better than others, some are more malign and aggressive than others.

I apologise to any who take offence at this, but my attitude to religion is the same as my attitude to politics: sceptical. I take nothing on trust, and am only interested in evidence.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 7:13:28 AM|| 2004-08-13 7:13:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Bulldog, I'm seeeriously offended.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 7:36:09 AM|| 2004-08-13 7:36:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 But Howard, Derby County FC's not technically a religion. At least not AFAIK.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 7:49:08 AM|| 2004-08-13 7:49:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Aye,
~~soccer~~ football jihad - it's the future I tell you.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 8:02:02 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:02:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 But I do have proof.
there are scientific facts mentioned in the quran and which are being discovered NOW.
Please take a look at this link:
www.it-is-truth.org/Index.shtml
By the way, muslims are clever. They too need proof that what they believe is the truth. There is enough proof in the Quran to convince even the most sceptical.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 8:08:45 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:08:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 I'll go with answer b.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 8:11:41 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:11:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Always be wary of explanations of the origin of the universe which don't use squiggly, incomprehendable algebra. Didn't see much truth their Gentle - In the beautiful nature there must be a Great Creator who makes these great pieces of art and produces everything for a special purpose in life
i.e. 'Because there must be...' Mmmm, all the proof I need, now let's kill some infidels...

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 8:18:22 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:18:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Try reading the biology section.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 8:23:05 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:23:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 I've studied molecular biology to a high level, Gentle. None of the 'embryology' revelations are convincing in the slightest. Perhaps Allah had spent (a short time) pulling Mohammed's leg something rotten...

I won't say that Muslims aren't clever, but it's pretty stupid and/or ignorant to take any of the material you linked to seriously.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 8:29:29 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:29:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Then try to explain them please.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 8:32:12 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:32:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Wow Murat and Gentle in the same day. Where is Not Micheal Moore for a trifecta? Give up on Gentle folks, she is nothing more than a Liberalplatituditron.

Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-08-13 8:40:20 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:40:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 This is like trying to argue with someone about Nostradamus or bible codes or assorted other whackiness. Pointless.

Then try to explain them please.

The burden of proof is on the one making the extraordinary claims. That would be you, Gentle, and your islamic 'scholars'.

The standard of proof offered at that site is laughable.

Posted by Lux 2004-08-13 8:42:53 AM|| 2004-08-13 8:42:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Then try to explain them please.

No offence, Gentle, but I won't waste my time when this page has the beef:

Koran: The Myth of Embryology!

Excerpt:

"... However many Muslim are completely unaware that all of the information in the Qur'an about embryology had already been revealed many different times, centuries before hand. Furthermore, some of the information is scientifically inaccurate. But don't take my word for it, early Muslim doctors, like Ibn-Qayyim, were first to blow the whistle when they saw the Koranic material, mirrored a Greek doctor named Galen, who lived of 150 AD. ..."

But basically, your contention is that Mohammed couldn't possibly have 'known' what he said without being informed by God. Why would God make errors (e.g. an embryo is not a 'blood clot' at any point, and flesh doesn't grow 'on' pre-formed bones)? And how come there's nothing new there that wasn't observed and contended by ancient Greeks?!

I really need to get myself a Koran for reference, but, Gentle, can you assure me that there's nothing along similar lines in the Koran that is just plain nonsense according to modern science?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-13 9:37:46 AM|| 2004-08-13 9:37:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Damn--it's good to know that with all these death-loving Muslims we'll have enough reserves to keep the Goth movement going for several more decades.

Posted by Dar 2004-08-13 10:06:58 AM|| 2004-08-13 10:06:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Can't you see burka-clad "Gentle" whispering in Paul Johnson's ear "Oooooh, Islam is about peace and Muslims are clever, too!" right before they sawed his head off?!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 10:16:13 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-13 10:16:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 I really need to get myself a Koran for reference
Not just for laughs, then?

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-13 10:17:35 AM|| 2004-08-13 10:17:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 As a Koran Compendium been cranked out?

I want to find out if allen is into MOPARs like the big guy.

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-13 10:29:07 AM|| 2004-08-13 10:29:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Actually, individual Muslims love to talk about loving death. As to actually following through on their rhetoric, that's a totally different story. Based on North Vietnamese statistics, during the Vietnam War, we - along with our South Vietnamese allies - killed 80,000 Vietnamese Communists a year for over a decade. At any moment, they were fielding hundreds of thousands of troops in South Vietnam, even though their total population was about 30 to 40 million, at most. Islam has a population of 1 billion. It is putting in the field tens of thousands of combatants, losing perhaps 10,000 to 20,000 men a year, while killing US troops at the rate of about 600-700 a year. Compare this to Vietnamese troops, who killed 8,000 Americans a year, in exchange for staggering losses. The fact is that Muslims love to talk about sacrifice, but most of this rhetoric is aimed at encouraging other Muslims to die for Islam's irredentist goals. Here's another comparison - the Chinese lost about a million dead from 1950 - 1953, during the Korean War. That's over 300,000 dead a year. When have Muslim armies lost people at that rate and continued fighting? Iran, which is the one country with a government established by Islamic revolution - apart from Afghanistan, where the government has changed - cried uncle after a mere 250,000 military dead over 8 years - or about 30,000 a year, despite having a population twice that of Vietnam's. If Muslims want to impose "another Vietnam" on America, they're going to have to be brave like their yellow brethren in the Western Pacific, who let their actions do the talking*. And I see no sign of that happening.

* Muslims appear to see talk as a substitute for action.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-13 10:32:58 AM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-13 10:32:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 A much better explanation for the "blood clot" reference in the koran is that Muhammad was reflecting the Jewish view that blood is sacred (source of life).

Posted by Spot 2004-08-13 10:39:58 AM|| 2004-08-13 10:39:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Given two polar opposite views on death-this one by Al-Hamza-

We find even among the Palestinian youth â the girls, the women, and the children ... â what unites all ... is their love of death for the sake of Allah ....

and, from Ayn Rand:

"...We are on strike against the dogma that the pursuit of one's happiness is evil. We are on strike against the doctrine that life is guilt...
...the world of today is the world they wanted; life is the object of their hatred. Leave them to the death they worship. In the name of your magnificent devotion to this earth, leave them, donÂ´t exhaust the greatness of your soul on achieving the triumph of the evil of theirs..."

-I am glad I was born into the culture of the latter.

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-13 10:55:21 AM|| 2004-08-13 10:55:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 I say the same thing about the korans scientific claims that I say when people make scientific claims for the Bible or Nostradamus' etc. If the writing is vague enough and someone worls hard enough, you can always find a way to make it look like it predicts something or knew something before anyone else. Its all crap.

Why do I trust the Bible, then? Because of what it says plainly. I could write a novel about what I see in it. But no book has a better knowledge of human nature, human abilities and human limits than it. No other book has a better prescription for what we need or a better vision of what we can be. Literarily no book is better written and its beauty and meaning are not lost in translation, like the koran. The Bible is stunningly beautiful and rich in meaning no matter the language it is written in. Its not dependent on its original language where one must apologize for it by saying that to really appreciate it it must be read in its original language.

I trust the Bible because its all about trust, what real trust is. When I realized that trust is the hardest thing in the world for us humans to do perfectly and that the Bible calls for a perfect trust in God from Genesis 1 to Rev 22 and leads one step by step through the process, that is when I came to trust it.

I feel very sorry for you, Gentle that you cannot trust and that you can only ever go as far as you can easily see and that you have defined for yourself a limited notion of what God and religion should be like and then chose a religion which fit your notions. You can only ever go as far as your limited intellect can take you. Christians like me have gone to our intellectual limit also but knowing the Bible's teachings, we have made the leap into the dark that those who depend on their own notions of reason can not make. All of us have been caught in the loving arms of God and all of us know what it is to trust and to "fly"

Everything else that we can want or desire and all that God wants and desires for us follows from that leap.

BTW,

Mohammed could talk and listen couldn't he? He travelled widely including into Greek areas and he talked to many people about religion before he had his so called revelations, right? Nothing about the koran indicates that it came from anywhere but mohammeds recollections and imperfect understanding of what he learned on his travels. There is nothing about his career that is any more extrordinary than that of other peasant generals and other founders of other religions and nothing which cannot be explained by science and psychology.

The only religious founder that he is not like is Jesus. Jesus is like no one else. He never did anything wrong or cruel of hurtful. But mohammed had 500 men beheaded and made their wives and children into slaves to just name one incident in his career. No amount of justification or so called scientific claims can justify the things that he did. To do so is to turn morality on its head so that what is wrong becomes a right if the motive is well intentioned.

But in the life of Jesus, wrong is always wrong and right is always right and this is just one of the things that his suffering and death teaches us. In light of this crucial teaching, all other claims simply fade away. In light of the truth, what mohammed did in the name of God or with good intentions, negates any claim that he ever made to being a prophet greater than Jesus.

Please, stop being fooled by the smoke and mirrors of islamic apologists who are trying to convince you that wrong doing can be excusable if its done with the right intentions. They are selling you a bill of goods and doing everything to distract you from the truth and to get you to alter your good God given conscience so that you will re-define what is right and wrong based on situation and intention so that what sometimes wrong can sometimes be less wrong or even right depending on the situation. They are trying to convince you of this because its the only way to get anyone to accept that Islam and mohammed are perfect. They want to convince you to accept something that is rotten and imperfect at its core by selling on all the shiny peripheral features and shiny whizbangs. They have swallowed a subtle poison in a shiny pretty wrapper and its warped their sensibility and now they want to convince you too that "everybody floats down here"

That reference is from Steven King's "It" by the way and I couldn't resist the opportunity to quote it here because it is so appropriate. Those who have been morally compromised can live in quite a state of denial because they aren't immediately destroyed, then they find justification for that compromise and then they must convince others to join them because that further justifies their posistions.

Sorry for the length, Gentle, and the rambling (I'm in an awful hurry) but I am only trying to help you begin to see.

Posted by peggy 2004-08-13 12:14:45 PM|| 2004-08-13 12:14:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Jules, that was from "Atlas Shrugged?"

Posted by Jarhead 2004-08-13 12:34:06 PM|| 2004-08-13 12:34:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Jarhead - Yep.

Posted by Doc8404 2004-08-13 12:52:25 PM|| 2004-08-13 12:52:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 only one of the abrahamic religions fully embraces life in this world - dare I mention which one? :)

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-13 12:58:32 PM|| 2004-08-13 12:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Those who fight for the taghut go to hell. Since they are in hell, then one should not pray for their souls, and one should not mislead people in this matter.

Umm. I thought it was only God who would judge ones location in the afterlife. Where does this bozo get his "inside knowledge"?

Now if I were to say that 19 hijackers were immediately sent to the lower regions on 9/11, I would be accused of making judgments too, wouldn't I?

But although God wishes us not to judge, He probably doen't get offended at idle speculation, especially under the circumstances.

Posted by BigEd 2004-08-13 1:00:04 PM|| 2004-08-13 1:00:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Thats the spirit!

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-13 1:02:22 PM|| 2004-08-13 1:02:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 #35-Yes, from John Galt's speech near the end of the book.

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-13 1:04:16 PM|| 2004-08-13 1:04:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 If those 9/11 hijackers didn't go straight to Hell to burn forever in the fires there as they condemned 3,000 people to burn in the WTC, then God and I don't have much to say to each other!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 1:08:23 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-13 1:08:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Jen - Exactimundo!

Posted by BigEd 2004-08-13 1:28:04 PM|| 2004-08-13 1:28:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 I love the oldest books of the bible. I love the echo of thoughtful civilization, history from times before writting, the flood, the tower of bable, the times of Abraham. Whether you believe in god or not, the ten comandments are a special set of thoughts, they don't mislead, they are straight forward. I love the golden rule, that as far as I know isn't even in the bible, correct me please IIW. I love being able to talk to god, tell me I'm not, wont change my attitude, to many answered prayers.

Neat prose Peggy. I pray in Jesus' name. As my father did, but I'm not about to tell anyone how to talk to god. Only that you can if you want to, or not, your call.

I like Peter Green's lyric from Oh Well "Now when I talk to god, I know he understands, he says "sit by me and I'll be your god at hand, but don't ask me what I think of you, I might not give the answer that you want me to."

Gentle, knock yourself out, I'm in the Mohamed was a fake prophet, islam is fake, all the holy sites are fake, camp.Thats why islamic countries have to enforce islamic codes by force of threat. Fake bullshit gentle.

Which iman has the goods Gentle?

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-13 2:21:28 PM|| 2004-08-13 2:21:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 im invokes begles law
ayan rand first mention and thread is per shit
and im not care if he boy or gurl

give us a break ima not sit around quoting thomas wolfe on yu
O! O! O! O! O! Lost and then found and O! O! O! O! Lost again, get me a tomatoer Luke an tell dad it his prostate

Posted by Half 2004-08-13 2:33:28 PM|| 2004-08-13 2:33:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Lucky, the Golden Rule was originally formulated by the Jewish rabbi Hillel in about 100 BCE.

The story goes that an obnoxious pagan came up to Hillel, demanding to be taught the sum total of Judaism in the time he could stand on one foot. Hillel said, "What is hateful to you, do not do unto your neighbor. All the rest is commentary -- now go and study." Jesus rephrased the injunction as a positive (Do unto others...) instead of the traditional negative (Do not do unto others...) which is one of reasons why Christians proselytize and Jews don't.

Rabbi Akiva, some 100 years after Jesus lived, was the first to summarize the Jewish Bible even more succinctly as, "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-13 4:14:54 PM|| 2004-08-13 4:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 What are you talking about, 44?

Posted by jules 187 2004-08-13 4:24:54 PM|| 2004-08-13 4:24:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 trailing wife, Christians were commanded to proselytize by Christ himself in what is called the Great Commission:
"Go ye therefore and preach to all nations, baptizing them..."
(I used to know the verse; book of Luke, I think.)
Christ also said that the Great Commandment was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul.
The second Commandment is to love thy neighbor as thyself, which is closest to the "Golden Rule."
Also akin to this is the Lord's Prayer: "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."--this invokes the negative action you were talking about.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-13 5:40:58 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-13 5:40:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Jen,

I didn't know about the direct command to proselytize, the other was good enough for me. Thanks! Jesus' Great Commandment is straight out of the Old Testament, part of the Jewish statement of faith, the Sh'mah. It starts, "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One." The verse following is your Great Commandment (Deuteronomy 6:_); orthodox Jews recite this 3x/day. It makes sense that Jesus considered this important, as he was well trained in the Rabbinic tradition.

I have to disagree about the Lord's Prayer: I see both forgiving and asking for forgiveness as positive actions, not refraining from action. But that isn't a critical disagreement, I think ;-)

Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-13 10:05:01 PM|| 2004-08-13 10:05:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 #26
Bulldog said:
"I really need to get myself a Koran for reference,"
You should try my favourite online edition. It has all the giggle, or as Gentle might assert "unambiguous" sections noted. It's quiet a laugh in places and terrifying in others, when you realise what these moroons believe.
Especially useful for when you're bored and there is nothing other than a "true believer" mussie at hand to play mind games with.

Posted by tipper 2004-08-13 11:41:45 PM|| 2004-08-13 11:41:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Rantburg U, no? Thx for the biblical clean, TW. I knew I was of balance there.

Look everyone, we know whats at stake. Even a limp prayer would help, even a blank stare prayer would help. Secular, reverent, no mater with this crowed. We have a common goal. We know whats up. We know how easily we are lead, how easily it is to be conflicted. How burdens aren't evenly spread. But this our forum to keep the fight going intelectually. I'm so impressed with this crowed, thats why I hang out.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-14 12:08:52 AM|| 2004-08-14 12:08:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#51 Another excellent tip, tipper! Thanks for the link.

Gentle - why don't you have a look, too?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-14 6:31:07 AM|| 2004-08-14 6:31:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 Will do BD. Though frankly I have a child in my lap and am afraid of offensive photos.
Let's leave it till later, shall we?

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-14 7:52:21 AM|| 2004-08-14 7:52:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#53 human shield huh? Islamic Heroineâ¢

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-14 8:19:49 AM|| 2004-08-14 8:19:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#54 Shut up Frank.
I just saw the site. Its stupid.
What God decides to do is his choice alone.
I see you never questioned the fact that your God was KILLED by his own creatures!

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-14 8:25:10 AM|| 2004-08-14 8:25:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#55 KILLED? LOL - idjit

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-14 8:28:40 AM|| 2004-08-14 8:28:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#56 Gentle,

Yes, you are an idjit if you think that anyone killed our God.

He offered himself for us. He surrendered himself of his own free will for our sakes so that we might come to know the fullness of his love for us, repent of our sins and re-enter a right relationship with him.

Jesus said that no man could take his life from him, but that he freely offered it up for us.

So you can't respect God and get off on worshipping him unless he conforms to your human understanding of strength?? You worship an idol made up of limited human thinking. Humans get off on following the biggest and strongest and most successful and most popular. We are venal that way. Your god is just like what a human expects of the strongest man. Your worship apparently DEPENDS on YOU being impressed with the picture the koran makes of God. You have contempt for a god who is so great that he can sacrifice his priveledge for his weak creatures.

You worship an invisible persian king in the sky. That is exactly where mohammed got his idea of what greatness is because in arabia the human idea of greatness was the persian king who never lowered himself to the level of his human subjects. persians could not look at him in the face. They had to grovel in front of him and praise his great qualities even when he was cruel and unjust. They would address their king by saying 'oh king most merciful and compassionate" even if the king ordered his village destroyed etc. A persian kings wives were not to be seen by the lower people because he was too high. This shows that mohammed only had a human imagination.

What is more is that he taught that greatness means only success the way that human beings understand success. So the strongest people can't be defeated. So we have the story that Jesus didn't die because he was too strong and beloved of god that he was rescued while someone weak and I guess not so loved by God was allowed to volunteer and suffer the most horrible death ever invented.

In Islam all the talk about the strong defending the weak breaks down into just that, talk not results because the strongest of all, God and mohammed are too strong so that weaker people must sacrifice themselves for the strong who don't sacrifice themselves.

Shouldn't the strongest of all sacrifice themselves first before scarificing the weaker ones?????

That is what Christianity says. God was not killed in the sense that human beings can be killed in that he ceased to exist. He suffered from the greatest sacrifice he could make and this was for him like death is for us only much greater because he is greater. His sacrifice was to suffer as we do and endure what we do and to put on weakness for our sake. He did not ask us to die for him before he died for us. He did not ask the weak to take his place nor did he allow the weak to take his place. In him, the strongest, he was able to endure all that we could not which is the true and full assault of evil as a consequence for the sins we have committed.

Rather than choosing to fight back which would have meant the strongest, in this case Jesus, attacking the weak, ie his creatures the Romans, he chose instead another option, a sacrifice of love for them a show of love so great that in 400 years the most brutal and repressive empire ever was Christian without a single battle being fought by Christians against the unbelievers. That is what true strength and success looks like, Gentle.

Jesus also did not ask a single follower of his to lay down their lives before he did. That is what true strength and success looks like, Gentle.

True success and strength and goodness and mercy is when the great lower themselves to live the life of the low for even a little while. Your god is apparently too great to associate with the low. Ours did come to be with us. He ate with us and suffered our inconveniences and indignities because that is what true greatness looks like, Gentle.

Our god came and fed, and healed, and rescued and never did anyone of us harm. This showed for all the true nature of his love and his greatness, Gentle.

mohammed was weak because he asked his followers to die for him when he didn't die for them first. As the supposedly strong one, he didn't die for them first. He couldn't succeed and survive without resorting to violence. He healed no one. He had dissenters murdered by his followers. He allowed the butchering of that Jewish tribe. Then he talked big about peace and not hurting trees etc.

That is what weakness and failure look like, Gentle.

Posted by peggy 2004-08-14 4:06:34 PM|| 2004-08-14 4:06:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 *high-fives Peggy*

well said

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-14 4:14:53 PM|| 2004-08-14 4:14:53 PM|| Front Page Top

15:53 Mr. Davis
15:47 Mr. Davis
12:21 Mr. Davis
12:20 Mr. Davis
12:05 Mr. Davis
12:01 Mr. Davis
11:58 Mr. Davis
11:55 Mr. Davis
11:43 Mr. Davis
13:51 Half
13:51 Half
16:14 Frank G
16:06 peggy
13:02 Federal Jones
08:28 Frank G
08:25 Gentle
08:24 Frank G
08:19 Frank G
07:52 Gentle
07:39 john
06:31 Bulldog
06:26 Bulldog
03:15 .com
01:54 Anonymous6075