Article

2004-08-12 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Rafael 2004-08-12 3:17:37 AM|| || Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'll believe it when Tater is totted.

Posted by someone 2004-08-12 06:47|| 2004-08-12 06:47|| Front Page Top

#2 FoxNews is reporting that the entire cemetary (5 mi wide) has been cleared, the old town has been cleared, and now the rats (between 700-1500) are holed up in the Ali Shrine. In other words, the Jarines absolutely kicked ass and cleared a huge area in a mere few hours. And stopped only at the Ali Shrine compound gates - because Allawi backed off and decided that only Iraqis could go in.

They are waiting for the Iraqi forces working with the Jarines to move forward.

Supposedly, the Iraqis will "raid" the moskkk. Realistically, I would bet that they don't and that it becomes a seige - maybe a few skirmishes. Sadly, this means that most, if not all, of these assholes will live. That is a Big Mistake, PM Allawi. You blinked. So now they'll come back to haunt you. Fuckwit.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 07:11|| 2004-08-12 07:11|| Front Page Top

#3 com maybe he wants a public starvation for them? The SOB are purely hated. I was reading some comments at BBC. Iraqi's want Sadar's balls on a pole.

Posted by FlameBait93268 2004-08-12 07:16|| 2004-08-12 07:16|| Front Page Top

#4 FB - I hope you're right - and thanx for putting a positive shine on it - I was so pissed it was hard to type. BTW, Sadr's in there, I think. There was film footage, but who knows when it was shot. One ex_Col commented that he thinks it's no mistake that Al Jizz was kicked out just before this began, heh. Sweet!

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 07:25|| 2004-08-12 07:25|| Front Page Top

#5 Fallujah is next...mark my words.

Posted by Anonymous5668 2004-08-12 07:32|| 2004-08-12 07:32|| Front Page Top

#6 Lol! So marked, heh, but you're fucking Anonymous -- which makes it worth something less than warm spit.

The Sunni Triangle must come next - and it's as obvious as a trout in the milk. Allawi knows he has to end these outlaw situations to stabilize sufficiently for elections to work - that is his primary task as the interim PM. How he does it, however, remains to be seen. This is almost a great start.

The demonstration in Najaf should give him confidence that he can have the Sunni / whatever rats in the Triangle also rounded up into pockets if he gives a green light... The finish here may influence how he decides to handle future finishes. I hope the Tater Tots continue to be remarkably stupid - and choose to die in very large numbers, because that's what can be expected up in the Triangle.

It is my fervent hope that the campaign there is not telegraphed - you know that our pal Zarqi will cover his own ass first, now that he's a media star and all.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 07:48|| 2004-08-12 07:48|| Front Page Top

#7 Anticipate a lengthy siege of the Golden Onion, during which general Shia beligerence will increase and the will of the Authority slowly dissipates until a climbdown / second truce is agreed. We should pen them in, cut off the water, throw in the gas and sort it out NOW.

Posted by Howard UK 2004-08-12 08:18|| 2004-08-12 08:18|| Front Page Top

#8 assuming the Najaf siege/assault is successful, there are two other more serious problems

1. fallujah and vicinity
2. sadr city in Baghdad

these may be much more difficult than Najaf

Posted by mhw 2004-08-12 08:39|| 2004-08-12 08:39|| Front Page Top

#9 "Atlanta Beseiged by Sherman"
Savannah is next...mark my words - Anon
Heh!

Posted by Don 2004-08-12 08:43|| 2004-08-12 08:43|| Front Page Top

#10 Charleston is the one I'm waiting for. That's where it all started.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-08-12 08:47|| 2004-08-12 08:47|| Front Page Top

#11 On to Richmond!

Posted by Steve">Steve 2004-08-12 09:02|| 2004-08-12 09:02|| Front Page Top

#12 A wait-'em-out approach or another truce would be a huge mistake. Take them out now. Alawi needs to establish control and order as his first priority. After that, things will fall into place.
There is a tide in the affairs of men,
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.

Posted by Spot">Spot 2004-08-12 09:26|| 2004-08-12 09:26|| Front Page Top

#13 Absolutely agreed. The killer is that Allawi and Gawar know far better than we that power is what Arabs respect. They know that some half-assed accommodation is a fool's errand. As with all other situations such as this, the asshats may slink away (or act as if they won) but as soon as they've rearmed and spun things in their recruiting and regrouped, they'll come back and cause similar or worse problems. This could be terrific or it could turn out stupid.

I like the HL Mencken quote that Ace of Spades features on his site:
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 09:35|| 2004-08-12 09:35|| Front Page Top

#14 Hey - its not just the Marines:

"We're starting to put the pressure on the militia to fight, die, or capitulate," Lt. Col. Myles Miyamasu, from the U.S. Army's 1st Battalion, 5th Regiment of the 1st Cavalry Division, said Thursday.

Like I saidbefore, I almost pity those poor dumb bastards, caught between the Marines and the First Team.

Posted by Oldspook 2004-08-12 09:39|| 2004-08-12 09:39|| Front Page Top

#15 points 1. A siege is NOT a truce. Especially if theres no water inside the shrine.
2. There are reports that Sadrs boyz have wired the shrine with explosives. OTOH its good for us to spread these reports, if theres even a small chance that theyre true.
3. Dead hard boyz are good for Allawi, but damage to the shrine is not. The more of the former, for the less of the latter, the better off he is. And we are too, BTW.
4. Many reports that the cemetary is clear. Dot coms is the first ive seen that the Old city is also clear.
5. Yes, Allawi has to visibly take on the Sunni insurgency next. Already neocon and Chalabi pal columnist Jim Hoagland is voicing concerns that Allawi is playing a Sunni dominance, Baathist game - supported by the CIA, which want to overthrow Iran, but is solicitous of Saudi, Egypt and Jordan. Im not sure how much Hoagland speaks for DoD (Dan Darling, your take on Hoagland?) but I suspect DoD is not willing to have a pure CIA agenda in Iraq.
6. I would hope that once Sadr is dead or jugged or run off the insurgency in Sadr City would simply dissipate - but i wouldnt get anyones hopes up.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 09:40|| 2004-08-12 09:40|| Front Page Top

#16 that power is what Arabs respect.

All human beings respect power. Its an evolutionary thing, I suspect. But to keep the power, so they respect you, you cant alienate everyone.

Thinking about it, I think Allawi could survive A. damage to the shrine or B. The shrine being destroyed by the Sadr forces themselves C. IF the shrine is totally destroyed by US or Iraqi forces attacks, hes got a big problem - perhaps not insurmountable, but it will take a lot of assuaging. Perhaps major concessions to Sistani and to Dawa to keep the lid on. If thats the only way to beat Sadr its worth it. If, OTOH, destroying the shrine is done only to keep one or two hundred hard boyz from escaping its NOT worth it.

Look, we've shown that US forces can go through these guys like a hot knife through butter. Even the current imperfectly trained Iraqi forces can stand up to them. And they alienate people in whatever city they takeover I dont see it as worth the consequence in Iraq and beyond of shrine destruction to kill off a few more of them.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 09:47|| 2004-08-12 09:47|| Front Page Top

#17 .com: And stopped only at the Ali Shrine compound gates - because Allawi backed off and decided that only Iraqis could go in.

I think Allawi can go only as far as Iraqis are willing to go. Remember that Saddam used to demolish shrines without compunction because he had no need for popular approval. Allawi isn't in that position. When enough Iraqis as a people are baying for Sadr's blood, then the Marines will be allowed to go in and crush the Sadrites to dust.

Remember - Iraqis have gone through decades of programming about the US being the Great Satan. One does not reverse these views in a single year. It will take time, and perhaps tens of thousands of Iraqi victims of Saddam's death squads, for Iraqis to realize that they have been praying at the altar of the false god of anti-Americanism - that Uncle Sam is there to help them start a working democracy, not impose a clone of Saddam upon them.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 09:59|| http://www.polipundit.com]">[http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-12 09:59|| Front Page Top

#18 It is also a statement of power to clearly posess it but use it judiciously. While Tater and his tots are best broiled, there's no point burning the kitchen down to do it.

Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-08-12 10:02|| 2004-08-12 10:02|| Front Page Top

#19 Hot Maps! Get yer maps here. Hot Maps!

Global Security Maps of Najaf. Note bottom left and right maps focus on the shrine. Area north of shrine is the huge cemetary - shown well on this map from Ace Pilots.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 10:17|| 2004-08-12 10:17|| Front Page Top

#20 Ace Pilots link: Forbidden! Verboten! Access Denied! GTFO!...also, a 404 was encountered

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2004-08-12 10:19|| 2004-08-12 10:19|| Front Page Top

#21 LH, ZF, Mr D - Think like an Arab, not a Westerner. Wonderful points from you all - but what do you think they mean to an Iraqi Arab?

I'm not the bad guy, here, BTW. You can argue amongst yourselves in fine Western logic, and it won't mean diddley-squat to Yagoub (that's Arabized Jacob). No, Jake Iraqi will smile and then blame you anyway, if he can.

Whatever. You guys update the link and work it out.

Arab Think.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 10:26|| 2004-08-12 10:26|| Front Page Top

#22 Frank - that must be some aspect of your cookie settings. Works fine for me.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 10:27|| 2004-08-12 10:27|| Front Page Top

#23 "We're starting to put the pressure on the militia to fight, die, or capitulate,"

NO capitulation. Every member of Sadr's militia that is found needs to be dispatched, no questions asked. Capturing and imprisoning them means that there is a possibility that they can either escape from captivity or in a rush of foolishness by Iraqi authorities be granted amnesty, which means that in either case, they WILL be back to possibly cause future problems. Ice them now, and there will no uncertainty about any future repercussions from either escape or release.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-12 10:28|| 2004-08-12 10:28|| Front Page Top

#24 but what do you think they mean to an Iraqi Arab

while i know or have known personally several muslims, almost all were south asians, turks, etc. I dont really know any arabs well, and must go by what ive read - so you can always trump me with your personal experiences. My impression is that they are not all the same, and will not all react the same way.

Why have the Shiites in Najaf turned against Sadr more firmly than Shiites elsewhere in Iraq, as it seems?? If the only thing Iraqi arabs respect is power, than they the Najafis who have lived under Sadrs power should be the most compliant, and the others should not be. All evidence has been that Sadrs firm application of power has alienated the locals, and resulted in Anti-sadr vigilantes.

Look, its one thing to be a totalitarian like Saddam. When youre THAT firm, (most) everyone will comply - something that Arabs seem to have in common with Russians, Germans, and just about everyone else whos lived under totalitarianism. Impose anything less and being feared alone isnt good enough.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 10:37|| 2004-08-12 10:37|| Front Page Top

#25 LH - I don't give a hoot about trumping - I care about getting Sadr out of the way as a problem solved. I observed Western logic, not Arab Think - and said so, that's all. Not disrespect - just trying to get everyone to accept that their excellent logic doesn't apply there. No offense, just a heavy sigh.

As for which cities have shown Sadr disrespect - it's those in which his minions have interrupted their lucrative shrine business. I'll bet a lot that the Tots have stepped on a lot of toes, believing themselves above the laws of men and all that rot. I'll bet that they've fomented some serious grudges - they have to eat - so I'll bet they take what they want, in Sadr's name. And you can probably add much more to that tally.

They are, if nothing else and almost above all else, merchants and simple workers with families to feed. After that's covered, then they play the family/clan/tribe/flavor of Islam cards in that order. There are exceptions, of course, such as blood libels, fueds, ronin without a Master, etc.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 10:46|| 2004-08-12 10:46|| Front Page Top

#26 .com: I'm not the bad guy, here, BTW. You can argue amongst yourselves in fine Western logic, and it won't mean diddley-squat to Yagoub (that's Arabized Jacob). No, Jake Iraqi will smile and then blame you anyway, if he can.

Look - if we want to fight a limited war with Islam, we're going to have to defer to their wishes on some issues. We could wipe them off the face of the earth, but to do that without nukes is going to require total mobilization on the scale of WWII - with tens of millions of Americans wiping out entire cities with artillery and incendiary bombs.

Destroying Fallujah or Najaf alone won't make the point - the relative peace we enjoyed in Germany and Japan were the result of us killing off 12% of the German population and about 3% of the Japanese population respectively, including close to 3 million civilians. To truly crush the Iraqis, we'd probably have to kill off 10% of the Iraqi population or about 2 million Iraqis - as well as of the military-age populations of the jihadi breeding grounds in the surrounding countries. Are we prepared to do what it takes to kill tens of millions of Muslims in the surrounding countries? I'm not sure we are, short of a reintroduction of the draft to get the millions of ground troops we will need.

We don't need to make any more enemies than necessary. This is why GWB went on the horn to apologize for Abu Ghraib, even though that was dwarfed by single-event Muslim atrocities alone, never mind cumulatively. He's trying to keep the scope of the war small.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 11:12|| http://www.polipundit.com]">[http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-12 11:12|| Front Page Top

#27 To people who point to the British practice of setting examples by imposing harsh but limited punitive expeditions, note that the British empire is no more. Ultimately, the British fled the Mid-East, Africa and all of their colonies east of the Suez canal. The human costs (to enemy civilians) of imposing unconditional submission were too high for the British to bear. The only way you can get a country to submit unconditionally is to kill them in large numbers - in the manner of states like the Chinese or the Roman empires. Are we prepared to slaughter Muslims on a WWII scale? I don't think we have the necessary manpower or munitions stockpiled for that - we'd certainly need to spend more than the puny 4% of annual GDP on the military we are today. (WWII expenditures were 50% of GDP).

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 11:20|| http://www.polipundit.com]">[http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-12 11:20|| Front Page Top

#28 Another point I should have made is that it's cheaper and easier, in both dollar terms and friendly casualties, to defeat Muslim countries in detail - i.e. fight these guys one at a time, than to provoke them to the point that you have to fight them simultaneously.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 11:26|| http://www.polipundit.com]">[http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-12 11:26|| Front Page Top

#29 I believe it is time to go multinational with this. I would love to bring in some russians with their * Sleaping Gas * they used in their Play standoff a few years back and pump that into the shrine.

Posted by Patrick 2004-08-12 11:28|| 2004-08-12 11:28|| Front Page Top

#30 ZF - I did not say nor suggest any wholesale slaughter. Period. I have to say your posts, suggesting I did so, yet without showing any such thing, piss me off. And that's a first because I respect your opinions, as I do LH and Mr D. Sigh.

Look at what happened in the only other moment of truth - Fallujah. Blink-blink. And now it will be even harder, but it will have to be done - else the Interim Govt has failed. Right? Can there be elections under the current situation?

You have to break Iran's insurgency and influence and you have to break the Sunni Ba'athist dream and the Zarqi game before you can plan for, register for, and hold elections. If that means Allawi needs to employ fear - so be it.

This is both example time (#2) and where the rubber meets the road. You can bet everyone is watching Allawi (especially the Sunnis) to see if he's up to pacifying the country for elections - or not. Period.

Allawi should take a hard stand and order a raid - a real one. Lots of flash-bangs, gas, the works, but a no-shit raid. Some of them will die, yes. But on his orders and led by the Iraqis (supported by US in direct backup) this is the only way that breaks the Sadr game. Every other option leaves him to play another day - even if from a prison cell. And emboldens the other asshats - for without hardcore action, they know they have nothing to fear.

I note that no one is offering a real alternative, one that doesn't result in stalemate at best and continued violence at worst. Which would be failure regards those elections and a the future of Iraq.

Just my opinion. I'm done. If you wish to pick apart shit, knock yourself out - just stick to my actual words and understanding of my intent when you do:

It's about sufficient pacification to hold reasonably safe and clean elections - sans external subversion and violence from any source. That's what the Interim Govt is charged to accomplish. It won't happen peacefully because no one has (yet) served notice that there is a real penalty to pay for violent opposition. We pulled the punch the first time. If we do it again, it will only be harder down the road.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 11:48|| 2004-08-12 11:48|| Front Page Top

#31 .com: ZF - I did not say nor suggest any wholesale slaughter.

I did not mean to imply that you suggested wholesale slaughter - I was suggesting that if we get the natives really riled up against us, we will have to resort to wholesale slaughter to pacify Iraq. This is why we're deferring to their wishes where that seems prudent. There's no point in alienating the Iraqi population - many of the anti-American crowd are being antagonized by the jihadis - we need to act after they are ready to see these people crushed, not before. It's a lot like FDR during WWII - before Pearl Harbor, we were bringing German attacks upon ourselves by supplying the Brits and the Russians - after Pearl Harbor, Americans wanted to flatten both Germany and Japan.

Iraqis have to be convinced - via terrorist atrocities against them - that the enemy is not America before they will finally cross the psychological bridge that prevents them from seeing fellow Arabs and Muslims as the enemy, and a mostly non-Arab and non-Muslim Americans as their friends. If we act before they are convinced of the danger to their lives and their future well-being, then they will blame us for exaggerating the terrorist threat and suggest that the jihadis were just misguided individuals who could have been negotiated with. If we are successful, these efforts could seal a friendship, rather than merely an alliance, with Iraq that could last decades.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 12:01|| 2004-08-12 12:01|| Front Page Top

#32 .com: Allawi should take a hard stand and order a raid - a real one.

Allawi, or any other politician in his position, can't take a stand unless the vast majority Iraqis are ready for it, since Najaf is the Shiite Jerusalem. If he jumps the gun, Iraq's version of John Kerry will blame him for the infidel desecration of the holy city and for being an American puppet. Do we really want an Iraqi version of Kerry replacing Allawi at the January polls?

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 12:05|| 2004-08-12 12:05|| Front Page Top

#33 ZF - I follow you - so the question is Allawi and the elections "scheduled" for next January. If he thinks he and the Iraqis are not ready, then the elections slide. One rather sticky problem - his govt is "scheduled" to cease in January with the election results.

As the Thais would say, 'pahn hah yai - chart nah' -- big problem - maybe next life.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 12:05|| 2004-08-12 12:05|| Front Page Top

#34 Re: your second post, which overlapped my response, I say the Iraqis will follow Allawi if he's strong and tough - not the other way around. As for the shrine, that's why Sistani bailed - and he will return to either bless or condemn what happened in his convenient absence. You know there were deals made between Sistani's minions and Allawi - and I assume that is what is guiding him. I believe the Iraqi majority will give him plenty of rope - then look to Sistani to see whether they should laugh or cry. Personally, I'd shed nary a tear if he expired under sedation, but that's another matter - I'd certainly explain such a possibility to him while I had my hands on him.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 12:10|| 2004-08-12 12:10|| Front Page Top

#35 That cemetery is just amazing. Here's a photo of it. Dates back to the 7th c and is said to have five million graves. Wow.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-08-12 12:12|| http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]">[http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-08-12 12:12|| Front Page Top

#36 angie ima think you are give rong link.

Posted by muck4doo 2004-08-12 12:34|| http://www.meatismurder.blogspot.com]">[http://www.meatismurder.blogspot.com] 2004-08-12 12:34|| Front Page Top

#37 Here's the right link I think.

Posted by 2% 2004-08-12 12:38|| 2004-08-12 12:38|| Front Page Top

#38 See #19 for links to some images of shrine and Najaf.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 12:41|| 2004-08-12 12:41|| Front Page Top

#39 but dot com, dont you agree that if the shrine is destroyed, that gives Sistani additional cards to play against Allawi and the US? And dont we agree that while Sistani may be someone with whom deals can be cut, its preferabble that he NOT deal from a position of strength? Ergo, its worth something to finish off Sadr with the mosque as intact as possible (there will of course be some who who will whine about the inevitable bullet holes - thats NOT what im thinking of, but of more or less complete destruction) and IF that should mean letting SOME of the hard boyz (but NOT Sadr himself) escape to fight another day, that may be a necessary, if unfortunate tradeoff.

Im no infantry tactician, but from the photos you linked to, taking the shrine with light weapons alone is going to present a considerable tactical problem. Unless, as some have suggested, we can wait them out till thirst weakens them. Im not sure - tactical discussions, anyone?

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 12:44|| 2004-08-12 12:44|| Front Page Top

#40 and note the whack a mole in Kut and elsewhere - the other lesson from Fallujah, is that when we have a nest of baddies surrounded and bsesiged, their best political-military response is countersiege - in April the Sunnis rose in Ramadi, and in the villages west of Baghdad, on the supply lines to the Marines in Fallujah. By surrounding and besieging the shrine(and Sadr, and his toughest thugs) do we not force them to rise wherever they can, from Baghdad to Basra? And given a better political military situation for us than in April, isnt that ideal for clean-up?

Just thinking through the options, is all.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 12:50|| 2004-08-12 12:50|| Front Page Top

#41 LH - Duh! Of course. Um, do I have to say it? I didn't call for, or suggest, or even whisper that the shrine should be targeted or damaged. Read my posts, and stick to what I said, plz.

We have Abrams and Bradleys all over the area. The old City was literally overrun by Marines and armor - FoxNews reports. It is calm and quiet cuz it's motherfucking occupied by overwhelming and very visible power - and no one is fucking with them.

There is beaucoup firepower - there is only a rat's nest of 750-1500 asshats in a building complex we don't want to destroy.

Seige - maybe for awhile. Raid. That's the word. Led by the Iraqis - who have performed very well according to eyewitness accounts thus far in this opn.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 12:52|| 2004-08-12 12:52|| Front Page Top

#42 "I believe I can fight a more effective, more thoughtful, more strategic, more proactive, more sensitive war on terror that reaches out to other nations and brings them to our side and lives up to American values in history."

Posted by John Forbes Kerry">John Forbes Kerry 2004-08-12 13:02|| 2004-08-12 13:02|| Front Page Top

#43 "I believe I will get a pony this Christmas."

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 13:04|| 2004-08-12 13:04|| Front Page Top

#44 Supposedly, the Iraqis will "raid" the moskkk. Realistically, I would bet that they don't and that it becomes a seige - maybe a few skirmishes. Sadly, this means that most, if not all, of these assholes will live. That is a Big Mistake, PM Allawi. You blinked. So now they'll come back to haunt you. Fuckwit.

Im sorry, perhaps i misinterpreted you. Perhaps i was confused by posts by others here that did call for the destruction of the shrine.

Im not sure about the relative cost benefit of fairly aggressive raids, fewer and lighter raids, or siege. I guess I was misled by your "strong" language :) to thinking that you really thought any consideration of a tradeoff between shrine damage and dead Sadrists was a sign of "fuckwitness".

Sorry. I think as usual our thinking is closer here than our styles would let on.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 13:06|| 2004-08-12 13:06|| Front Page Top

#45 "Just a small one, a thoughtful and sensitive one, one that I can take with me wherever I go."

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 13:07|| 2004-08-12 13:07|| Front Page Top

#46 LH - that was my first blush as the story broke and I was typing in anger, heh. My follow-up post to FB indicates this.

As for what I think they should do: Maybe let them stew a bit, but RAID! As I said in the last couple of posts (about Najaf): an Iraqi-led raid with the full intent of clearing the whole thing out.

AP posted an interesting idea about some hardboyz amongst the Tot sheep who might try to blow up the moskkk. A raid could pre-empt this.

And night-time is the time to do it - about 3:00 AM - which will be before the first prayer (sometime after 3:30) - just my notion of where to go from here... Flash-bangs and gas - 2 seconds - and Iraqis in night-vision gear and gas masks shooting anyone who stands or is holding a weapon. US follows to take the survivors outside for a nice cable-tie wristlock and a sit-down.

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 13:17|| 2004-08-12 13:17|| Front Page Top

#47 Mr.com :LOL!

Posted by Heisenbergmayhavebeenhere 2004-08-12 13:17|| 2004-08-12 13:17|| Front Page Top

#48 FoxNews:Military sources cautioned reporters that the action in Najaf was not the "major offensive" that had been discussed on Wednesday, but just one in a series of raids aimed at breaking al-Sadr's hold on the city and drawing his loyalists out.

Kinda like the USMC (and 1st cav, and Iraqi forces) went into the cemetary backed out, rinse, repeat, before securing the cemetary, this is the FIRST raid into the old city, move in kill, pull back, rinse, repeat, THEN secure old city, THEN move on Shrine (and dot coms suggestion as good as anything ive seen (but im a THINKER,Jim, not a tactician))

As dot come points out, careful preparation leaves the risk that the Sadrists will blow the shrine themselves. If our forces were clear of it, I wonder what the hearts and minds effects would actually be, for the fence sitting Iraqi Shiite (IE not the proUS guys with their blogs, or the hardcore Sadr supporters, but Yacub Shiite, will he blame the Sadrists or the US? IE Im not sure that isnt actually a quite acceptable risk.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-12 13:40|| 2004-08-12 13:40|| Front Page Top

#49 I think the jihadists misunderstand the nature of courage. Courage isn't being willing to die in one shot, by blowing yourself to kingdom come. Courage is facing death repeatedly - in battle after battle - and coming back to roll the dice just one more time. I think a lot of these guys will break and run after a few dozen raids - and count themselves lucky to be alive.

Posted by Zhang Fei">Zhang Fei 2004-08-12 13:56|| http://www.polipundit.com]">[http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-08-12 13:56|| Front Page Top

#50 If our forces were clear of it, I wonder what the hearts and minds effects would actually be, for the fence sitting Iraqi Shiite (IE not the proUS guys with their blogs, or the hardcore Sadr supporters, but Yacub Shiite, will he blame the Sadrists or the US?..

You're assuming again that these people think logically. They've proved time and time again that they don't. If Sadr's followers dynamite the shrine, U.S. forces are still going to get the blame anyway, regardless. Any explanation, no matter how improbable or impossible, is viable as long as blame can be laid on Americans.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-12 14:09|| 2004-08-12 14:09|| Front Page Top

#51 angie ima think you are give rong link.

ima sory mucky stoopid yahoo dymanically

Er

I mean, Yahoo (as I mentioned the other day) gives some of their images dynamic links, so the picture changes throughout the day. Hopefully this one will stand still.

2%'s link was also wrong, and I was also denied access to the Ace Pilots image .com linked to in #19.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2004-08-12 4:11:37 PM|| [http://darkblogules.blogspot.com] 2004-08-12 4:11:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 I uploaded the Ace Pilots map - for those who couldn't access it.

And here's Tater himself saying everything's A-OK! And I hope he is soon on his way to the moon...

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 4:28:14 PM|| 2004-08-12 4:28:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Cant wait for the new picture once the USMC washes the smile off his face.

Think they will need some extra-strength pumas.

Posted by 2% 2004-08-12 4:36:32 PM|| 2004-08-12 4:36:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 When I was last able to access RB, about 4:10, FoxNews ran a long live videophone interview with some journalist type who's with the US troops. He says the Iraqis are very weary of Sadr, etc. Nice sounding stuff, but I'm leery when I'm told what I want to hear - RB's trained me well!

But what struck me was that more than 50% of the US troops had their IR helmet gear mounted. Easy to conclude they're not likely to be pulling back tonight.

As for blowing up the moskkk and the resulting blame, they'd prolly say we forced them into blowing it up by our attacks and presence. Maybe even adding that we were desecrating it by being there - and thus they were performing an heroic service to Islam. Martyrs all. Believe it or not, that shit would make perfect sense to them. Just a thought that hit me after reading BaR's post.

Here's Allah Pundit's take... Endgame in Najaf

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 4:36:40 PM|| 2004-08-12 4:36:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 And then I hose the damned map link, lol!

H E R E

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 4:38:59 PM|| 2004-08-12 4:38:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 crap! And here I've been messing with IE and cookie settings! .com steered me wrong!

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-12 5:17:10 PM|| 2004-08-12 5:17:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Awright - lol - blame me, al-Frank! *mumble mumble*

Ace Pilots is not a restricted / registered site! I dunno what to tell you! :-/

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 5:20:44 PM|| 2004-08-12 5:20:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 no prob - I lied about doing anythig about it :-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-12 5:30:19 PM|| 2004-08-12 5:30:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 LOL! Gag! Cough! Sputter! 8-)

(Remember this?)

*GAZE*

Posted by .com 2004-08-12 5:33:14 PM|| 2004-08-12 5:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 They need to position around the mosque and then move in that EXPERIMENT MICROWAVE CROWD CONTROL equipment.. You know the some of the neat stuff that the government showed us before the war but didn't have the balls to use. If they all feel like they are on fire they will come out even if their eyes say no.

Posted by 3dc 2004-08-12 7:07:02 PM|| 2004-08-12 7:07:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Muqtada al-Sadr-------------> times up!

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-08-12 11:01:17 PM|| 2004-08-12 11:01:17 PM|| Front Page Top

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