Article

2004-08-02 Africa: Horn

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by someone 2004-08-02 2:20:45 AM|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Oops, meant to post to page 1.

Posted by someone 2004-08-02 2:21:18 AM|| 2004-08-02 2:21:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I do not think Bush can afford another humiliating defeat after the Iraq saga ...

Posted by Pedro 2004-08-02 2:34:56 AM|| 2004-08-02 2:34:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Iraq was a "humiliating defeat" for Bush? or anyone else?
The only person for whom it was a defeat is Saddam Hussein...and his dead boys Queasy and Q-Tip!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-02 2:39:36 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-02 2:39:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 hi jen! ima be anonymus here but want to say im luv you to.:)

Posted by Anonymous5968 2004-08-02 2:53:03 AM|| 2004-08-02 2:53:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I think we should keep the help to a minimum. I have a bad feeling this is going to come back and bite us like Bosnia. The black Muslims will hate us for saving them from the Arabs. The black Christians - I'm not sure about. The rebels will most likely hate us.

I'm sorry, folks, but I can't get worked up about anything that happens to countries in Africa, including genocide. Africans are all doomed any way you look at it - AIDS, famine, floods, dictators - it's called the lost continent for good reason. Sudan is but one disaster in the midst of several others.

Posted by rex 2004-08-02 3:14:04 AM|| 2004-08-02 3:14:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Rex, I agree with you. Race conflicts are very dangerous especially when it involves Blacks. US should stay away from this issue and have African countries deal with it.

Posted by Alex 2004-08-02 7:41:32 AM|| 2004-08-02 7:41:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I disagree.
Sudan threatens to become the new (old) Afghanistan for Al Queda--it was Bin Laden's first.
It's right across the thin Red Sea from Soddy Arabia.
These are Arab Muslims killing black Christians...and animists.
I don't think it would take that many troops to stop this.
And you 2 are callous to just slough off the slaughter of thousands of innocents, like Bill Clinton did in Rwanda!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-02 7:46:38 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-02 7:46:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Having lots of black African armed troops in Darfur would be good. If the US gives them air support that's even better.

Posted by mhw 2004-08-02 9:06:42 AM|| 2004-08-02 9:06:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Al Qaeda was in Sudan during Clinton's early years. The "aspirin factory" bombing sent them to the Taliban.

Now they're back ... and Jen is right, they must not be allowed to stay.

Posted by too true 2004-08-02 9:30:31 AM|| 2004-08-02 9:30:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I do not think Bush can afford another humiliating defeat after the Iraq saga ...

Wanna see a defeat in Iraq? Put Kerry in charge.

I don't think it would take that many troops to stop this.

Send in the Phrench. After all, they have experience in this sort of thing from their actions in the Ivory Coast, don't they? ;)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-08-02 11:05:32 AM|| 2004-08-02 11:05:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 actually there ARE french troops in Chad, IIUC, and they SHOULD play a role. UK has also offered troops, and Aussies have offered technical troops. Black africans can supply foot soldiers. All we should supply is logistics, and air power if it should come to that, not ground troops.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-02 11:11:48 AM|| 2004-08-02 11:11:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Pedro, nothing like a new commenter that whorships at the feet of the Mainstreammedia. It's like a baby being fed from a Gerber bottle. Little bib, drips down the lowerer lip, mommy spoons it back into the piehole.

I like action into Sudan. This is a great front in this war. Black muslims may be turned and set free from islam. Sudanian arabs could be killed wholesale and who would give a shit. Time to play the race card for real.

In terms of large military formations, don't think so. Time to put pressure on jihad from all directions. I think Africa is key.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-02 1:47:11 PM|| 2004-08-02 1:47:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Divide Sudan into three (Black Muslim, Arab Muslim, Black non-Muslim) and seriously send a message to the two-bit genocidal dictators around the world. Either that or send a JDAM to the presidential palace and then talk about ending the genocide to whomever crawls out of the rubble.

Posted by yank 2004-08-02 1:51:07 PM|| [politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-08-02 1:51:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 lucky

african muslims dont want to be set free from Islam, nor do most Iraqi, afghan or other muslims. They DO want to be set free from ISLAMISM, especially its more radical and violent offshoots.

Many african muslim states are already actively supporting the WOT, as is documented here in RB (Much BETTER than in the MSM, i might add) We need to continue that relationship and expand it.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-02 1:54:12 PM|| 2004-08-02 1:54:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Hello Everyone once again,just had to join in on this one after months of being to bone idle to type , i have to rant that we should go on into Sudan, my reasoning is that it too will work in the flytrap manner that Iraq did, it'll magnatize all those stupid Jihadi fucknozzles in the region to go help out the Janjaweeds but my main reason is Sudan is a shit hole always has been always will be so why not press on in after all its been a favoutite stomping ground for binny and the jihadi goons for a long while. I will not support any UN action though as this would be yet another tremendous disaster that Kofi will walk away from blameless, so there it is my reasonings for crushing the Suddies. be back soon

Posted by Shep UK 2004-08-02 1:58:28 PM|| 2004-08-02 1:58:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Hi Shep! Where ya been?

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-02 2:18:05 PM|| 2004-08-02 2:18:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Black muslims may be turned and set free from islam
Say what? Once a Muslim, always a Muslim. Maybe we should first try to prevent our own American blacks from converting to fundamentalist Islam while incarcerated before we take on airy-fairy projects abroad hoping to "convert" African Muslims to love infidels? After you have a plan for the former, get back to me about your ambitious plans in Sudan.

Also, think Bosnia and what a tremendous success that has become re: our "liberating" Muslims and winning over their population. Righhhhttt.

I don't think it would take that many troops to stop this
You are nuts. As discussed before, Sudan is a huge country with an unfriendly geography to "liberating" ground troops. The UN has its occasional "real" moments, and Sudan is one of those moments. It would take an enormous number of troops to properly overcome the Arabs in Sudan as well as to maintain order thereafter when the gov't in place would not exactly be very "helpful" to "liberating forces." And you're right... Sudan's location being very close to a ready supply of Islamic fighters in nearby Arab countries. It would be another nasty and neverending "wack a mole" venture. Thanks but no thanks we have 2 war fronts open at this time...that's quite enough for most Americans. Where do you think we're going to get an neverending supply of American troops to take on your ever increasing list of "noble" campaigns abroad? You don't like the genocide in Sudan? Nothing stopping you from joining some Peace Corps type of aid group and flying out to Sudan or a nearby country to help withh the situation. Don't assign the task to someone else to follow through with your airy fairy ventures. I'm not callous about "sloughing off" the lives of "innocents." Rather I'm trying to prevent "innocent" American white boys from being drafted to carry out useless "liberating" campaigns abroad that come up annually, or so it seems, with neo cons like you.

The "aspirin factory" bombing sent them to the Taliban. Now they're back
Wrong. Some left. But Arab countries always re-freshed the numbers in Sudan.

Send in the Phrench. After all, they have experience in this sort of thing from their actions in the Ivory Coast, don't they? ;)
As another poster indicated, France is amassing troops on the Sudan border. And don't laugh - if France sends in some of its French Foreign Legion to Africa, the "bad boys" pay attention and the locals have confidence knowing that the FFL means business and don't worry too much about taking POW's.

These are Arab Muslims killing black Christians and animists
How nice it would be if life were sooo simple, Jen. Sudan is rather complicated. In fact, there are 3 conflicts going on in Sudan right now, and therefore and thusly, it would be prudent not to get any of our ground troops involved in this mess, since the majority of our GI's are non-black, non-Arab, and non-Muslim.

Posted by rex 2004-08-02 2:19:54 PM|| 2004-08-02 2:19:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Nothing stopping you from joining some Peace Corps type of aid group and flying out to Sudan or a nearby country to help withh the situation.

This is not correct. The Sudanese govt HAS stopped NGOs from going into Darfur.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-02 2:24:33 PM|| 2004-08-02 2:24:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm sorry, folks, but I can't get worked up about anything that happens to countries in Africa,

somehow im not surprised.

including genocide.
Which I put in a case by itself, but maybe thats just me.

Africans are all doomed any way you look at it - AIDS, famine, floods, dictators

In fact I rather expect there will be plenty of Africans around in 40 years. Famines are common only in the Sahel and in the horn of Africa - much of africa exports agricultural products, as some familiarity with the coffee and cocoa markets would tell you. Floods can happen anywhere - its hardly a cause of depopulation in africa.

As for previous genocides, well there was Rwanda. Which the West so shamefully turned aside from - folks here can feel free to blame Clinton and the French if they care to.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-02 2:29:22 PM|| 2004-08-02 2:29:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Arm the non-moonbats. Phuck the rest.

Posted by BH 2004-08-02 2:48:45 PM|| 2004-08-02 2:48:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 This is not correct. The Sudanese govt HAS stopped NGOs from going into Darfur.
NGO's in nearby countries are preparing for the opportunity to get food into Sudan. My point is that it's easier for Jen and others to talk tough, as long as such action requires no change /disruption of their safe and cozy and affluent life style in the USA.

somehow im not surprised... Which I put in a case by itself, but maybe thats just me.
Excuse me, LH, but there are those of us who, though are not Jewish, have relatives who were victims of genocide in Europe. The WWII Jewish Holocaust was not the only genocide that has taken place in history, so don't think that you are the only person who is sensitive to genocide.

Where were you when the Ukrainian Civil Liberties Union campaigned for the NYT and the Pulitzer Prize Committee to strip Duranty, the Stalinist apologist, of his Pulitizer Prize posthumously? Did you picket the NYT because you feel so strongly about genocide? Did you write Arthur Sulzberger Jr. about how ashamed you were that he was supporting Duranty, who covered up the deliberate starvation of 8-12 Million Ukrainian farmers? Righhhtttt...

LH, your whimsical concern about genocide is laughable and your cheap shot attack on others like myself, who don't want open borders for illegal migration of the world's citizens and who are against dropping American GI's into yet a 3rd war zone is childish..

Posted by rex 2004-08-02 3:12:07 PM|| 2004-08-02 3:12:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 rex, good arguments all. But once a muslim always a muslim. Not neccesarily true. Me thinks these muslims are muslim by forced conversions and could be turned into something other then a jihadie machine.

I have for a long time been critical of fighting the war in the dust of Afganistan and Iraq. To much politicing. And I'm all for backing the program until those places can or fail in their endeavers. But a serious, and I mean serious, blow torch of Khartoum will cut that head off.

You really think large numbers of Arabs will float on ever to fight jihad. Bring them on. I think a true race card can be played that puts jihad on the hot plate.

I think Africa is the Key in this war. Iraq/saddam was unfinished business. But I don't think it's the best place to fight jihad. Like I said, you could kill jihadie wholesale there and by playing the race/genocide card, no one would give a shit.

If Egypt, Lybia, Morroco et all. want to funnel jihadies into the killing zone, they would stick out like a sore thumb in a black Sudan.

I've asked several time what victory looks like in this war. It better not look like Israel or long lines at the checkin counter. It needs to be an end to Jihad. To put that to an end will require turning large populations rom that Ideal. Me thinks those poor black bastards in Africa (the children bro) are the best bet in starting that.

Don't give me that strected to thin shit. Ramp up. Kill wholesale, start in Sudan. Victory rex, not security.

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-02 3:19:26 PM|| 2004-08-02 3:19:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Sorry, Lucky, nice try convincing me, but no cigar. First off, you are waaayyy, too optimistic that are current politicians in DC would allow :
Kill wholesale, start in Sudan. Victory rex, not security.
Keep in mind that these are the same politicians who got weak kneed about POW alleged abuse in Abu. GWB apologized to the Arab world at least 2 or 3 times for panties on the head and you think this same man would allow the military free wheeling "bombs away," no worries, we only want victory...think again, my friend, it would be another don't hurt any civilians or homes or offices when you release a bomb and at all cost, try to take POW's when you can, so we can support them with 3 squares and exercise yards for life.

We have 2 wars on the go. At our current military strength, that's enough. Sudan is an African/Arab responsibility. If former colonist countries want to add support, good on them. But now's a splendid opportunity for those lazy lead butts in Egypt and Jordan, who get a truck load of foreign aid from US, to go into Sudan and clean out the "bad" Arabs who are giving Arabs a "bad reputation.

Why did we sell all those airplanes to Egypt? They're just collecting dust. Rev 'em up, Mubarek, and get your military into Sudan. Like wise Jordan has been yakking alot about helping Iraq...well they could help Iraq indirectly if they sent Jordanian troops to Sudan to keep America focused on Iraq.

Also, nearby African countries who are on the public dole should get their collective butts into action. What are they waiting for?

This is a complicated conflict in Sudan, involving both race and religion. Countries with similar racial and religious profiles should handle the genocide taking place in Sudan. We have special forces in the area hunting AQ operatives, so that's the level of military we should have in Africa. This genocide thingie could in fact draw us into a bottomless pit, Black Hole quagmire. We have and are doing our part to make the world a better place for down trodden people and we have done our part to fight genocides in the past. The Bosnia one back fired in our face big time. Time to sit this one out.

Posted by rex 2004-08-02 3:51:35 PM|| 2004-08-02 3:51:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Three step program: (1) We could fund Mercs. Africa is knee deep in fairly competant mercs protecting diamonds and what-not. They could use some image building and we could use the firepower to defend Dafur. (2) The CIA should go into Southern Sudan and work on creating a sort of Northern Alliance capable of defending themselves (with US airpower) in a defense war. (3) The Bush administration should announce genocide the Sudan government has no legal authority over their territory because of their racist war, slavery, and now genocide.

Even the suggestion of partition would scare the crap out of numerous thugs and the Sunni's in Iraq. And it would do wonders for the US position in Africa.

We should use the race card, the slavery card, and the genocide card and we shouldn't pull any punches. Let the lefties come out in favor of racism, slavery and genocide.

Posted by yank 2004-08-02 6:05:30 PM|| [politicaljunky.blogspot.com] 2004-08-02 6:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 rex - when did i mention the word jew??? Yes my concern for genocide is highly personal, but the phrase "thats just me" is hardly limited to religious or racial overtones.

Yes, I certainly recognize there have been other genocides - which is why i want to stop this one.

and btw through the years of the cold war i opposed the USSR, and registered willingly for the draft (which was not instituted at that time) and supported the captive nations.

I do think its shameful about the NYT and Duranty - but excuse me - thats about something that happened over 70 years ago - Ukraine is FREE today, and i hope it remains so.

The genocide in Sudan is NOW, and needs to be stopped. And it probably wont take many (if ANY)US ground troops to stop it. It also wont require more NGO volunteers - it WILL require political will.

And I must say your statement that my concern about genocide is "whimsical" is both incorrect and highly offensive. (as is your cheap shot about illegal immigration - i oppose it, as i oppose ALL violations of US law)

Frankly I dont know why you post here - surely there are places more in keeping with your Buchananite positions. Troll.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-08-02 6:15:09 PM|| 2004-08-02 6:15:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Sounds like a job for Executive Outcomes to bad the UN put them out of business.

As far as I am concerned Muslim Africa can go dink it's self.

Posted by FlameBait93268 2004-08-02 6:31:03 PM|| 2004-08-02 6:31:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 #13 Either that or send a JDAM to the presidential palace and then talk about ending the genocide to whomever crawls out of the rubble.

This is the solution I have been advocating for some time now, yank. A lot of Janjaweed support would dry up overnight if we nailed the Sudanese government just once.

#22 But a serious, and I mean serious, blow torch of Khartoum will cut that head off.

Spark it up, Lucky. rex, while you are being absolutely realistic about American response to intervention, I think you are overly optimistic about any Arab contributions towards ending the Sudan genocide. The quickest solution is to locate the Janjaweed rebels, wait for them to cluster for some big pow-wow and strafe the living sh!t out of them with AC-130H gunships. Leave behind bone fragments and not much else.

If no cessation of hostilities happens, then level Khartoum's entire government complex. We have neither the time nor money to go in and sort out these homicidal fanatics. They need to be removed from the playing field. yank, you were on the right track to begin with. Use American airpower to decap the government or scour out the rebels. Let's not waste time on anything else. However, I do like your suggestions about partitioning. Such a threat is really big news to the dictatorial regimes. Loss of territory is one of the few clubs to hold over such maggots.

Posted by Anonymous5974 2004-08-02 7:02:55 PM|| 2004-08-02 7:02:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 LiberalHawk, no offense, but your petulent ad hominems sound very "girlie man"-ish. Get a grip.

There are many variations of conservative. I happen to be an old-fashioned conservative. I am not a Buchananite, though I don't see him as "evil" as you seem to.

You seem to be a moderate liberal who sees some appeal in the neo-con version of conservative. There's room for both of us in the conservative tent. We probably will not see eye-to-eye on many things but I'm not purposely baiting you. I just don't agree with alot of what you say. I'm no more a troll than you are, since you manage to always get a rise from me from your posts.

One does not have to be a rocket scientists to realize you are Jewish. I surmised you were Jewish by the fact that you speak very knowledgeably about Israel and have referred to your experiences there.

I don't think that the US should invade in Sudan for the reasoned logical points I have quoted above. That you are making this into a race baiting discussion is your problem not mine. It demomstrates to me that your "liberal" self is showing instead of your cerebral conservative side. This is a racial, ethnic complex situation in Sudan and it requires more thoughtfulness than merely saving blacks and Muslims.

Posted by rex 2004-08-02 8:33:46 PM|| 2004-08-02 8:33:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Cookie Issues: Anon5974 = Zenster

Posted by Zenster 2004-08-02 9:08:47 PM|| 2004-08-02 9:08:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Sorry I couldn't get back to this thread sooner Had a T time, shot a 92, missed four puts from inside 3 ft. Bladed an easy pitch... ah you've heard it al before, sorry!

Rex, I'm not trying to convince you, not at all. I'm trying, as has been the case since I started hanging out at RB, to understand how to win the war, who the enemy is, what does victory look like, and how long will it take to win it.

I will say that victory better not look like Israel or the current status quo, where homeland security is the mantra. I like the agressive action that has been going on.

The enemies are jihadies and the support structures that feed it. In sudan you have a jihadie breeding culture that is attempting genocide. Kill them and ally with Africans who have a better understanding of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Your idea about Jordan and Egypt are silly. It's not in their DNA.

I do not like fighting this war as a piece meal fight for the soul of Iraq. I would rather destroy an evil jihadie society. Sudan fits that perfectly. And Sudans willingness to do the evil deed places them squarely in the "no longer fit to be around" catagory. Arabs need to see that actions like that being done in sudan will be harmful to your health. I personally have no respect for islam at all. I do not wish to see any cultural respect given it. I look down my nose at it. Point fingers at it, make stupid jokes about it. And the Black muslims are a traumitized society, they, the bastard sons, can be turned. Mecca, by now, prolly means squat to them!

Your statement regarding PC in DC is well understood. GW doesn't spell things out to clearly. He needs to play the race card and get vicious.

rex, what does victory look like to you. How do we get there.

And BTW, The postings of the main cadre of RBrs, Dan Darling, Paul Maloney, Steves, Fred, are to be heralded as folks that were way ahead of the world on this. last year it was, for me a "who's your buddy situation there. But those guys knew what was coming and kept us informed. way to go youse guys!

Posted by Lucky 2004-08-02 11:06:05 PM|| 2004-08-02 11:06:05 PM|| Front Page Top

03:26 FlameBait93268
03:16 Anonymous6006
14:26 john
11:13 BigEd
09:26 .com
00:33 gromky
00:27 Ol_Dirty_American
00:25 Anonymous5977
00:17 Ol_Dirty_American
00:01 Seafarious
00:00 Zenster
23:58 CrazyFool
23:51 Seafarious
23:48 Oldspook
23:46 Frank G
23:46 CrazyFool
23:42 Ol_Dirty_American
23:37 CrazyFool
23:36 Ol_Dirty_American
23:09 GreatestJeneration
23:06 Lucky
22:53 Mike Sylwester
22:49 Mike Sylwester
22:37 Brutus