Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Wed 07/12/2006 View Tue 07/11/2006 View Mon 07/10/2006 View Sun 07/09/2006 View Sat 07/08/2006 View Fri 07/07/2006 View Thu 07/06/2006
1
2006-07-12 Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Israeli troops enter Lebanon amid kidnap reports
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Oztralian 2006-07-12 07:33|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 This IS an act of war, an overt act of war.

I hope hizbollah gets *full* unexpected consequences out of this... since apparently the arab-muslim way of war is to attack an opponent while pretending not to, and asking for said opponent to act with restraint and not to defend himself... all this in a state of constant aggression with intervals of tactical hudnas... a perpetual "asymetrical war" 180° from the western way of war.
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-12 07:45||   2006-07-12 07:45|| Front Page Top

#2 Level everything, scrape the ground clean and annex. Hizb'allah can spend all their time feeding and housing the refugees.
Posted by ed 2006-07-12 07:58||   2006-07-12 07:58|| Front Page Top

#3 What we need to see is peace through superior firepower - plus annexing troublesome territories and then some judicious ethnic cleansing - give the residents checks to get the hell out; hell give them a vehicle as well; it's cheaper in the long run.

It's now clear to me that the solution is a (much) bigger Israel.

And as I regularly point to you guys, Israel is our Vienna, Lose Israel and the Barbarians are that much closer to the gates.
Posted by phil_b">phil_b  2006-07-12 08:09|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]  2006-07-12 08:09|| Front Page Top

#4 Israel has the ability to take care of these long-festering problems in Lebanon,Gaza, and Syria. What's the downside? Middle east war? That is already going on. Solves some of our problems in Iraq too.
Posted by JohnQC 2006-07-12 08:09||   2006-07-12 08:09|| Front Page Top

#5 What's the downside?

A great deal of Israel's economy is directly dependent on trade with EU countries, who already lean towards the Palestinians politically. A boycott of Israeli goods, which IIRC has been threatened in the past, would be devastating to that small country.
Posted by lotp 2006-07-12 08:16||   2006-07-12 08:16|| Front Page Top

#6 peace through superior firepower

I hope that piece of wisdom will prevail here.

As long as hizbollah can act and talk sh*t without consequence, it will go on with shelling, incursions,... same as hamas.
They need to be taught a real lesson, something that will hurt them enough to make them think again before keeping on with that Cycle Of Violence routine.

Btw, frenhc lci channel is implying the kidnaped isareli soldiers were of course on the lebanese side, plus the usual innuendo about mean Israel (they shelled villages and bridges, you know, while hizbollah launched rockets at "military outposts", even if civilians were hurt collaterally)... I remember a couple of days ago the "acknowledgement" by Israel that force had failed, and the gaza raid only strenghtened the hamas, and they were gonna swap prisoners any time soon... this pisses me off, not to mention the fact the *french* tv talking head pronounce "hamas" and "hizbollah" the arab way, a phenomenon dating back to a few years (post 9/11???).
Posted by anonymous5089 2006-07-12 08:21||   2006-07-12 08:21|| Front Page Top

#7 Lose Israel and the Barbarians are that much closer to the gates.

Scrub that. The barbarians are already inside the gates. Lose Israel and the barbarians inside the gates will be emboldened to a degree you can't imagine.
Posted by phil_b">phil_b  2006-07-12 08:28|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]  2006-07-12 08:28|| Front Page Top

#8 A boycott of Israeli goods, which IIRC has been threatened in the past, would be devastating to that small country.

So Europe can only get tough with the Jews? Europe is the major ally of the Paleostinian enemy, the political wing of Hezbollah, as it were. Israel has the choice of being bled by the certainty of a thousand knife cuts from the Paleostinians or possibly starved by the racism of EUropeans. I'm not sure it's that tough a choice, or that it gets better with age. What are they going to do when it's their trade with EUrabia that's threatened?
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-12 08:32||   2006-07-12 08:32|| Front Page Top

#9 It does not appear that the islamofacists understand anything but total war, complete defeat, and complete domination. Only then one might begin to get their attention and dictate terms.
Posted by JohnQC 2006-07-12 08:34||   2006-07-12 08:34|| Front Page Top

#10 It's now clear to me that the solution is a (much) bigger Israel.

Perhaps as large as the biblical borders of the "promised land"... from the Nile to the banks of the Euphrates.
Posted by Evil Elvis 2006-07-12 09:03||   2006-07-12 09:03|| Front Page Top

#11 At some point the Israelis need to tell the world to pound sand and go Old Testament on the Palestinians: Kill every male above the age of 12 and drive the rest over their borders into Egypt, Syria, and Jordan. Level the countryside. Disinfect and resettle with sane people willing to live in peace. The Palestinians as a people are beyond redemption.
Posted by RWV 2006-07-12 09:08||   2006-07-12 09:08|| Front Page Top

#12 DEBKAfile’s military sources report Israel is calling up armored infantry and air force reserves. Israeli helicopters drop special forces over Beirut area midday Wednesday to prevent Hizballah kidnappers going to ground with Israeli hostages in Shiite district. Arabiya TV claims the two kidnapped soldiers are Druzes. Israel reports 6 soldiers injured, 3 critically, and 11 civilians wounded.

Israeli reinforcements are streaming north. The Israeli force is running into roadside bombs and heavy anti-tank rocket and missile fire in the chase for the Hizballah kidnappers who snatched two soldiers early Wednesday, 12 July.

Israel warplanes are striking bridges and Hizballah command posts. Naval ships are bombing Hizballah coastal positions.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2006-07-12 09:26||   2006-07-12 09:26|| Front Page Top

#13 This was the match boys. ITS ON!

Irans fingers are all over this. They know full well we were going to attack them and the rest of the Muslim world would yawn like when we hit Saddam. By forcing Israel to jump through their proxy Hezbollah the Iranians/Syrians can now join in resulting in US jumping in making the Muslim street really pop because the propaganda of it being a Israeli/Muslim war will be believable.

We waited to long I called this along time ago that Iran would use Hezbollah to flip the script. I just don’t think the self-defense fuzzy we will get will matter with the LLL's anyway but turning it into a Israeli/Muslim conflict through Hamas/Hezbollah Iran got a PR boost and major support as the Muslim leader not just some dictator of Iran beefing with the US.

Damm we waited to long we f*cked up. errrrr
Posted by C-Low 2006-07-12 09:28||   2006-07-12 09:28|| Front Page Top

#14 Israel has the choice of being bled by the certainty of a thousand knife cuts from the Paleostinians or possibly starved by the racism of EUropeans. I'm not sure it's that tough a choice, or that it gets better with age. What are they going to do when it's their trade with EUrabia that's threatened?

Oh, I agree NS. But it's naive to think that Israel will only suffer VERBAL actions from Europe. Their necessary self-defense actions may well bring them to the point where their economic as well as military survival is threatened. Those who support their response to Lebanon - and I am one - need to be willing to push the White House and Congress to support this tiny country in more economic ways, if necessary.
Posted by lotp 2006-07-12 09:33||   2006-07-12 09:33|| Front Page Top

#15  UPDATE to article:
The fresh crisis developed even as the situation continued to deteriorate in the Gaza Strip, where Palestinian militants are still holding Gilad Shalit, an 19-year-old Israeli corporal seized on June 25.

His capture, which was claimed by three groups including the armed wing of the governing Hamas, sparked the worst crisis in the region since the Islamist movement had its cabinet sworn in last March.

In an interview, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak said his mediation efforts for Shalit's release had been sabotaged by an unnamed party. (Wonder who that could've been?).

In the remarks published Wednesday, Murabak said he had reached a deal with Israel for "a large number of prisoners" to be released but added that Hamas came under fresh pressure and the mediation was scuppered. (Oh, there's our answer...I assume that Iran's/Syria's fingerprints are all over this, eh, Hosni?)

Hezbollah and its leader Hassan Nasrallah have repeatedly urged Hamas not to release the Israeli soldier, arguing that his capture was the best bargaining chip for the release of Palestinian and Arab prisoners.

The three groups detaining Shalit in the Gaza Strip have demanded the release of 1,000 Palestinian, Arab, Muslim and other prisoners.

Israel has so far refused to negotiate and launched a large-scale operation against the Gaza Strip, killing more than 60 Palestinians in the past 10 days and pounding the territory's infrastructure.
Posted by BA 2006-07-12 09:38||   2006-07-12 09:38|| Front Page Top

#16 Fucking level the place.
Posted by DarthVader 2006-07-12 09:39||   2006-07-12 09:39|| Front Page Top

#17 See it your way, C-Low, but I don't think this has been a great week for the axis of evil. Going from East to west, Norks missles fizzle, Japan talks re-armament. Muzzies blow up Mumbai trains in Madrid replay and push India to brink of action against Pakistan. India also needs to look macho afte missiles fizzle. Taliban perks up spring offensive and draws more British troops in, revealing Brit lack of CAS. Everybody's getting fed up with Iran. Iraq is plodding along with Maliki starting to get fed up with Iranina puppet Sadr. Israel buzzing Damascus and taking out Hezhbollah.

Seems like the coalition of the willing got some recruits and spine. That offsets any temporary PR problem. Doesn't looks quite so bad as it did a month ago.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-12 09:40||   2006-07-12 09:40|| Front Page Top

#18 Those who support their response to Lebanon - and I am one - need to be willing to push the White House and Congress to support this tiny country in more economic ways, if necessary.

Absolutely!
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-12 09:42||   2006-07-12 09:42|| Front Page Top

#19 As Billy-Bob would say:
"Y'all done fucked up, now."
Posted by mojo">mojo  2006-07-12 09:49||   2006-07-12 09:49|| Front Page Top

#20 So where does Israel go from here? They would be foolish to give in to exchange demands. If they do, they will face continued kidnappings forever. Seems to me Israel needs to go forward with this harshly and aggressively. They need to put the fear of God into Iran and Syria and their puppets. Enough screwing around. Islamofacists want Israel destroyed. That is the end goal. They need to act accordingly. The U.S. needs to support this effort completely.
Posted by Whaling Unomoger7693 2006-07-12 10:03||   2006-07-12 10:03|| Front Page Top

#21 Flood your congresscritters offices with this message. Do it NOW, before they commit to a public stance that is 'measured'.
Posted by lotp 2006-07-12 10:10||   2006-07-12 10:10|| Front Page Top

#22 So where does Israel go from here?
Take hostages. Send the female relatives of Hezbollah to brothels. It's the Chicago islamic way.
Posted by ed 2006-07-12 10:23||   2006-07-12 10:23|| Front Page Top

#23 Nimble

Not saying that this will change the final outcome. We are winning we will win in the end (well as long as we can keep the LLL’s out of power here at home).

What I am saying is we just got flanked on the PR front. A war between the US & Iran would have got some protest from the Arab street and Hezbollah and Hamas strikes after we attacked Iran would have shown them for what they are Iranian/Proxies. But now Iran/Syria will come to the Hezbollah/Hamas/Muslim support.

This will make this war that was coming anyway an Israeli/Muslim WAR. At least on the PR front.

I was going to happen anyway but perceptions are crucial and the perception in the Muslim world will be Israeli/Muslim war with Iran/Syria backing Muslims and the US/willing backing the all hated Jooooos.

We got flanked by Iran. In the name of a useless effort to appease the LLL’s by not taking the initiative and being the aggressor in the coming war we sacrifice the initiative and a HUGE PR advantage to the Iranians. We f*cked up. We will still win but it will now be a lot more bloody and a lot harder than before. Our allies in the ME and Iraq are going to be hard pressed to support the US in a war between Israel & what looks like Muslim world aka Hamas/Hezbollah/Syria/Iran/AQ ect…

I had feared Bush had become so beaten by the LLL’s that he would do this in a useless attempt to appease the LLL’s at the cost of our troops and the war effort. The LLL’s will still blame Bush whether we are attacked first or attack first it was a useless effort but costly one to choose.

I predict before the end of the month Syria and very likely Iran will declare war on Israel. Which of course when Iran sends planes or Missiles through Iraqi airspace we will be at war two? We got flanked and now it’s just a matter of how is Iran going to hit our forces in Iraq directly all out or try to send missiles over the airspace towards Israel?

We allowed ourselves to be Flanked on the PR front.
Posted by C-Low 2006-07-12 10:28||   2006-07-12 10:28|| Front Page Top

#24 I recognize that there may be economic downside to this, but, let's be realistic.

Suppose the Canadians came across our border and kidnapped one of our soldiers, or attacked and killed a handful of soldiers and kidnapped two of our soldiers.

Screw the economics! There would be serious hell to pay.
Posted by Captain America 2006-07-12 10:41||   2006-07-12 10:41|| Front Page Top

#25 Hizbullah's spiritual leader, Sheikh Hassan "Nasrallah, lauded the Hizbullah for the attack in which seven IDF soldiers were killed and two others kidnapped. Speaking at a press conference on Wednesday afternoon, he warned Israel that the Hizbullah would only release the captives in exchange for security prisoners." (Jerusalem Post)

Sometimes it sure sucks to be a soldier. There is only one way Israel should release the requested prisoners - with a time bomb implanted in their guts.
Posted by glenmore">glenmore  2006-07-12 13:16||   2006-07-12 13:16|| Front Page Top

#26 Jerusalem Post

"There were also signs that Egypt was growing impatient with Syria in the crisis. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak implicitly accused Damascus of wrecking his attempts to mediate a deal for the release of Cpt. Cpl. Gilad Shalit, snatched by Hamas-linked militants on June 25.

Hamas was subjected to "counter-pressures by other parties, which I don't want to name but which cut the road in front of the Egyptian mediation and led to the failure of the deal after it was about to be concluded," Mubarak told Cairo's Al-Ahram Al-Massai newspaper.

Mubarak spoke by telephone Wedneday with Syrian President Bashar Assad and Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Saniora, as well as Jordan's King Abdullah II over the violence. Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit flew to Damascus and met with Assad, the Egyptian news agency said. "

Israel should not try to occupy the entire ME, kill everyone, etc. Israel faces an axis of Iran-Syria-Hezbollah-Hamas. Iran is the strongest, but is beyond Israels ability to take down. Hamas and Hezb are proxies, and subject to manipulation. The weak link, the key, is Damascus. The key is to take actions that will further isolate Damascus. Israel shouldnt send Lebanon back to 20 years, but should threaten to do so, and perhaps take the first steps, to make it clear to any fence sitters in Lebanon the dangers of playing with Hezbollah. And make it clear to the Euros the need to keep the pressure on, in fact to go beyond prior acts, to break Hezbollah, whether Syria accepts that or not. The goal is an empowered Lebanese state that takes full responsibilty for actions on its territory. A lebanon thats moving ahead in Beirut, at the price of free rein for Syria-Iran-Heszbollah in the south, is not acceptable.

And for these reasons AS well as economics, Israel must keep a weather eye on EU opinion. Which theyve largely done so far in Gaza - despite the screaming in the press, if you watch the casualty figures, you can see how restrained this operation has been.


Posted by liberalhawk 2006-07-12 15:59||   2006-07-12 15:59|| Front Page Top

#27 and in case anyone misunderstands - when I say "make clear to the Euros" I dont primarily mean verbally. Make clear by threatening their interests in the region. Thats the real meaning of Halutz's statement about sending Leb back 20 years. The Cedar revolution was a big gain for France, in particular, and has given France a new stake in the region. Halutz's statement is basically telling France, that if Israel is not secure, France's interests in Beirut aren't either.
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-07-12 16:03||   2006-07-12 16:03|| Front Page Top

#28 AFP

"Dozens of families were seen leaving some villages and heading to seek temporary refuge at the homes of relatives in Tyre.

"We used to flee directly to Beirut, but now we may not be as welcome because there is no more consensus in Lebanon on Hezbollah's resistance since the Israeli troop pullout from Lebanon in 2000," after 22 years of occupation, said one southern resident.

"Some people now do not want war any more, and they want to disarm the Resistance," he said, referring to domestic calls echoing UN demands for the disarming of Hezbollah
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-07-12 16:12||   2006-07-12 16:12|| Front Page Top

#29 Given that there's been noprogress in 20 years, Israel should send Damascus back 120 years. No message, no nuance. Utter destruction.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-12 16:23||   2006-07-12 16:23|| Front Page Top

#30 Good stuff, liberalhawk, thanks. I'm very reluctant to see regular Lebs pay for Hezb because I've long wondered how much the regular guy there actually supported Hezb, if at all. Seems to me they can't resist them because they're well armed, organized, and funded. It would be like trying to resist the National Guard...

But the word "Resistance" (they even capitalized it) is the key, I think. Sure, that came from an article, but when Joe Leb openly calls Hezb terrorists or Iranian thugs, at least, then they'll be ready for their new-found freedom from Damascus.

I hope Israel can do the nearly impossible in the heat of war and differentiate between Joe Leb and Hezb. Failing will guarantee they never drop the BS "Resistance" view. Succeeding will guarantee that eventually they will, or so I believe.
Posted by Wheager Thromorong1016 2006-07-12 16:31||   2006-07-12 16:31|| Front Page Top

#31 "A boycott of Israeli goods, which IIRC has been threatened in the past, would be devastating to that small country."

No chance europe would do such a thingy! ovens and unfair treatment of jews are still in living memory, you'd be amazed at the unspoken support for Israel within the european populace.

Proportional response its what our fathers taught us.
Posted by pihkalbadger 2006-07-12 21:06||   2006-07-12 21:06|| Front Page Top

#32 perhaps Europe would like the French Wine Boycott treatment™? It can be arranged, and on a much larger scale. No tourism? No purchases of Euro products? Think twice you sanctimonious asshole antisemites. We can make your economy dive
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-07-12 21:52||   2006-07-12 21:52|| Front Page Top

23:52 DMFD
23:27 Seafarious
23:18 twobyfour
22:53 Clinemble Cresing5775
22:52 Frank G
22:51 Frank G
22:49 Frank G
22:48 Frank G
22:47 Frank G
22:45 Chulet Thruling5126
22:41 Frank G
22:40 Frank G
22:39 Skidmark
22:36 DanNY
22:34 tu3031
22:33 Anonymoose
22:32 anonymous2u
22:31 Anonymoose
22:29 anonymous2u
22:29 Alaska Paul
22:26 Alaska Paul
22:18 Frank G
22:12 Manolo
22:11 Manolo









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com