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2006-07-16 Israel-Palestine-Jordan
Hizbullah threatens petrochemical installations
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Posted by phil_b 2006-07-16 04:10|| || Front Page|| [11133 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 I am beeting in Israel to loose. It's leadership is a bunch of idiots (ehud barak should receive a special honorable mention) and it's army is showing big levels of complacency and to be bragging kids.
Just hope that a 1973 turn around can happens but
unfortunatly i dont really expect it.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 04:27||   2006-07-16 04:27|| Front Page Top

#2 It's leadership is a bunch of idiots

Israel's leadership doesn't have to be the smartest in the world, it just has to be smarter than that of "Palestine", Hezballah, Lebanon, and Iran (and it's bitch Syria).
Posted by gorb 2006-07-16 04:45||   2006-07-16 04:45|| Front Page Top

#3 true also true that right now they arent showing it.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 05:13||   2006-07-16 05:13|| Front Page Top

#4 Since direct retaliation against missile launch crews is rarely possible, the appropriate retaliatory weapon is: Napalm bombs, striking the entire launch area, disproportionately. Israel has over 100,000 missile of all kind, including rocket launchers that it can cite at will. Enough of appeasement; let them liquidate Hizbollah and then we will work on Syria and Iran. With those cess pools in operation, peace initiatives are a joke.
Posted by Anginens Threreng8133 2006-07-16 05:29||   2006-07-16 05:29|| Front Page Top

#5 Dream on. This are the titles of Yahoo News:

• Hezbollah rockets hit Haifa, killing 8
• G-8 leaders urge Israel to show restraint
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 05:37||   2006-07-16 05:37|| Front Page Top

#6 Peretz: Civilian infrastructure that protects terrorists must expect harm

Defense Minister, Amir Peretz, warned residents of the Dahiya neighborhood in southern Beirut, considered a Hizbullah stronghold, that the situation has changed.

"Hizbullah uses civilians as a cover for terror activities, and a civilian infrastructure that protects terrorists must expect harm," said Peretz in a cabinet meeting.
Posted by twobyfour 2006-07-16 05:43||   2006-07-16 05:43|| Front Page Top

#7 Mofaz: Must continue to attack Lebanon with full force

Transportation Minister and former Minister of Defense, Shaul Mofaz, said in a cabinet meeting that "Israel must continue to attack Lebanon, in particular around Dahiya, with full force, possibly even more than we're exerting now." "

We need to give the IDF all the time necessary because we've come to the point of no return," he continued.
Posted by twobyfour 2006-07-16 05:44||   2006-07-16 05:44|| Front Page Top

#8 Looks like the idiots in Dahiya are about to scatter like flies (one way, or another!).
Posted by gorb 2006-07-16 05:50||   2006-07-16 05:50|| Front Page Top

#9 I can hear the sound of rubble bouncing.
Posted by phil_b">phil_b  2006-07-16 05:53|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]  2006-07-16 05:53|| Front Page Top

#10 Do they have the ability to target these rockets onto the installations? - I've always assumed they're pretty much area weapons.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2006-07-16 06:01||   2006-07-16 06:01|| Front Page Top

#11 The al-Jazeera Arab television station reported that one of its crews, including journalist-reporter Elias Karam, was arrested by police in Haifa, following a barrage of rockets on the city.

Apparently, the crew was arrested after broadcasting a live video from the area of Haifa's oil refineries.

[2x4 note: Also they were broadcasting where missiles hit. Suspicion is they were essentially providing guidance info to Hizbullah for further attacks. I don't understand what AJ is doing in Israel. They should have been told to pack up the moment military operations started.]
Posted by twobyfour 2006-07-16 06:22||   2006-07-16 06:22|| Front Page Top

#12 a refinary is an area target usualy more than 1 sqkm

Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 07:05||   2006-07-16 07:05|| Front Page Top

#13 [2x4 note: Also they were broadcasting where missiles hit. Suspicion is they were essentially providing guidance info to Hizbullah for further attacks. I don't understand what AJ is doing in Israel. They should have been told to pack up the moment military operations started.]

That is for that kind of reasons that a said the above.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 07:06||   2006-07-16 07:06|| Front Page Top

#14 Yes, of course - my mistake.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2006-07-16 07:18||   2006-07-16 07:18|| Front Page Top

#15 CU - I don't share your view. Israel has a competent army, navy, air forc e,and ample reserves. Where is the Syrian or Hezbollah navy? Where is the Syrian or Hezb air force? Either non-existent or afraid to take to the sea or skies in the Syrian case. Hezbololah is being taken apart in the actual field and beaten down in the people's eyes. Are Nasrallah his band of heroes fighting? No, they're hiding like children, and the Lebs know it
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-07-16 09:27||   2006-07-16 09:27|| Front Page Top

#16 They dont need to play Israel game to win, so they dont need AF and Navy. Rockets can rain is Israeli towns and Israel is with its hands tied in back.

Complacency and incompetence is what was showed by Israel in last weeks:
a)A tunnel under an army position near Gaza.
b)after that warning 2 Humvv in an arborised(??) road near Lebanon are attcked and 2 soldiers are made hostage. The reaction by a tank was destroyed by a land mine.
c) A 200M$ israeli corvete got lucky and wasnt sunk by a missile large enough to send it to the fishes.
A brigadier has candure to say that Israel didnt know instead of being in shame! Only after that coastal radars in Lebanon were attacked...Smaaaaaart!

I am sure there are great units in Israel sadly that dont translates to leadership and some part of military.

Read this http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm

Nov 2002...
What Israel leadership has made against that threat since then? Are they expecting that only when rains nerve gas rockets to start to act?
They are playing the status squo. It's like in soccer when a team plays to get a tie it usually looses.

Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 10:17||   2006-07-16 10:17|| Front Page Top

#17 Yeah, that rain of rockets and other miracle weapons sure put Britain out of WWII.

Keep talking, because it's what your side does best.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 10:44||   2006-07-16 10:44|| Front Page Top

#18 Did you forget that Britain was destroying entire German cities?

P.S: seems you didnt grasp what the side i am in...
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 10:55||   2006-07-16 10:55|| Front Page Top

#19 And the British destruction of those cities was equally effective militarily.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 10:56||   2006-07-16 10:56|| Front Page Top

#20 did you forget who won?
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-07-16 11:11||   2006-07-16 11:11|| Front Page Top

#21 So if Britain wasnt destroying cities and invading Germany would have won the war?
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 11:11||   2006-07-16 11:11|| Front Page Top

#22 The question isn't who won, but how and why. Bombing cities without military targets such as Hamburg and Dresden contributed nothing to the ultimate victory. The only thing bombing non-military cities does is kill civilians. But there's too many of them to ever be able to kill them all, so no matter how many rockets the Paleos shoot at Israeli civilians and no matter how many of those civilians they kill, they will only make the Israeli military more remorseless and effective.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 11:34||   2006-07-16 11:34|| Front Page Top

#23 Bombing cities without military targets such as Hamburg and Dresden contributed nothing to the ultimate victory.

Is that clear, NS? Churchill certainly thought it contributed to the erosion of German morale.
Posted by lotp 2006-07-16 11:36||   2006-07-16 11:36|| Front Page Top

#24 it's certainly a tactic in "all out war", like Nasrallah declared
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-07-16 11:37||   2006-07-16 11:37|| Front Page Top

#25 Bombing of cities contributed to the victory, disruption of transportation hubs and some industries. But i think it has also a moral heavy cost too.

What i am saying is that Israel isnt fighting back like England.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 11:44||   2006-07-16 11:44|| Front Page Top

#26 The way the blitz crippled British morale?

And what we did to the Japanese cities makes all the European bombing pale in comparison. But not one Japanese or German soldier surrendered as a result.

It was only when we demonstrated the we could and would utterly exterminate their nation at Hiroshima and Nagasaki that the Japanese surrendered. And not all of them wanted to, even then.

That is the level of destruction that must be visited upon a polpulation to make a civilian focused bombardment effective. Hisballah has nothing near that capability. Their civilian directed rocket attacks will be useless against Israel in a general war such as has begun.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 11:49||   2006-07-16 11:49|| Front Page Top

#27 Ah, now I understand where you were going with that comment. Yes, it is approaching that point isn't it.
Posted by lotp 2006-07-16 11:51||   2006-07-16 11:51|| Front Page Top

#28 I'd agree with that
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-07-16 11:53||   2006-07-16 11:53|| Front Page Top

#29 "The way the blitz crippled British morale?"

The Blitz didnt crippled because they were fighting back and were free to porsue the win at all coasts.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 12:06||   2006-07-16 12:06|| Front Page Top

#30 What i am saying is that Israel isnt fighting back like England.

After four days we can reach this conclusion? I've certainly been critical of Olmert in Gaza, but he's also learning on the job. How long did the phoney war last? A year? I'd say thus far we've seen little more than preparation of the battlefield. Are all the reserves even effective yet? Tell me Israel didn't fight back like Britain after the fighting is over.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 12:10||   2006-07-16 12:10|| Front Page Top

#31 "And what we did to the Japanese cities makes all the European bombing pale in comparison. But not one Japanese or German soldier surrendered as a result."

That's not true.
The bomb was the last important drop. If you read Japanese political decisions you would have known they were already intended to reach peace and the cabinet was discussing many ways to achieve that.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 12:14||   2006-07-16 12:14|| Front Page Top

#32 "After four days we can reach this conclusion? Tell me Israel didn't fight back like Britain after the fighting is over."

For the 4 days yes that is the conclusion. Hizballah is forcing Israel to act and to increase attacks.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 12:19||   2006-07-16 12:19|| Front Page Top

#33 CU2772 is on target with the end of Japans war. The bombing was bad, but the mining of the homewaters was catastrophic. Japan was facing mass starvation within weeks unless they surrendered. To that end the 2 nukes may have saved millions of Japaneese lives.
Posted by 6 2006-07-16 12:21||   2006-07-16 12:21|| Front Page Top

#34 Japanese individually were all over the map. You can find writings to support any conclusion. And there was an assasination team on the way to rub out the Emperor before he could give the radio message. So argue whatever position you wish about intentions. Actions speak louder than words.

The minimg would have been disastrous, but only as part of boiling the frog by slowly raising the temperature of the flame. Note that the greatest destruction of the Japanese economy was probably rendered by the Silent Service. The only ships the japanese had left had no fuel to sail. But the atomic bombs were the equivalent of throwing the frog into boiling water. And it jumped out.

If you're willing to make judgements on insufficient data, be my guest. I'd not be inclined to make conclusions about this war yet. Israel did not choose the timing so it's not surprising it takes some time to gear up a large organization.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 13:09||   2006-07-16 13:09|| Front Page Top

#35 (Hizbullah) deliberately avoided the petrochemical installations,
Pahleeze, they just missed and want to cover themselves, not want to hit a target such as that? Hawh.
Thank God Israel is taking the steps it has been.
Posted by Jan 2006-07-16 13:30||   2006-07-16 13:30|| Front Page Top

#36 Cleret - If you have it available, you should tune into FoxNews - they're going to interview your buddy, Ehud Barak, ina little while. Tagline was that he's one of Israel's most highly decorated Special Forces soldiers.

Obviously a stupid git.
Posted by Clavimble Spomoger8840 2006-07-16 13:33||   2006-07-16 13:33|| Front Page Top

#37 Until the Israelis respond with overwhelming force and/or attack Syria this will just go on. What they need is a truly humiliating defeat for the Hizzies and their puppeteers, but the cost of that effort will be exceedingly high.

The other option is to destroy Syria if they don't resolve this. The cowboyesque "You got 48 hours to git 'r done" message to Chinless or the air campaign extends to Syria. And, if there is any, any response from Syria other than supine acceptance, then the Golani Brigade will lead the way to Damascus. Comprende?
Posted by Brett 2006-07-16 13:39||   2006-07-16 13:39|| Front Page Top

#38 Israel has made a lot of mistakes in the past, not dealing with the threats presented by Hizb'Allah, Hamas, Syria, and Iran. Well, shiite, so have we. Now even Olmert is getting it. so Israel has some catching up to do. Serious catching up. And they are doing it. We are going to get drawn into this one, via Iran. I hope that we are ready when the time comes for a decisive blow.
Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul  2006-07-16 13:40||   2006-07-16 13:40|| Front Page Top

#39 About the Israel reserve soldiers. I read somewhere yesterday, on one of the Israel sites, that it takes 6 days to get the reserves fully mobilized. We're at Day 5. And I think that Day 6 coincides with that 72 hour announcement that was or wasn't made!
Posted by Sherry">Sherry  2006-07-16 14:17||   2006-07-16 14:17|| Front Page Top

#40 Stupid or no, credit is due for not going down the 1 Israeli in exchange for X,000's of Paleo prisoners gambit.
Posted by Captain America 2006-07-16 15:01||   2006-07-16 15:01|| Front Page Top

#41 judgements on insufficient data

Got me there NS.
Posted by 6 2006-07-16 16:03||   2006-07-16 16:03|| Front Page Top

#42 And the British destruction of those cities was equally effective militarily.

You mean like Dresden and our own bombing of Tokyo? Well guess what they were damn effective for a period of time when we didnt have anything like precision guided weapons. Dresden itself had somwhere between 110 to 127 medium to large factories and workshops that were almost entirely dedicated to the war effort along with its railway system that could have shunted materials away from Berlin, which was already being bombed, to the front line. The military was right to attack it. To suggest otherwise would be equivalent of moral naivety on the level of those in the heights of academia who respond to historical events in hindsight. Things are always great when you can look back on them, not so great when you're the one busy surviving.
Posted by Valentine 2006-07-16 16:14||   2006-07-16 16:14|| Front Page Top

#43 "they're going to interview your buddy, Ehud Barak(...)
Obviously a stupid git"

Yes he was great soldier and yes he was a stupid PM.
A great soldier doesnt make a great PM. If you know a little bit of military History even a great Division Commander doesnt make a great Corps Commander.

The point he failed like abandoning the buffer zone in Lebanon a treason to many Lebanese that supported Israel and great loss of inteligence about hizballah...

Be happy. I have one good thing to say about current leadership that i was forgetting. They didnt accepted a prisioner deal. That is an important change is Israel policy.
----------------------
Japanese were collapsing without nukes they would be resisting a couple more months maybe. In the end the Nukes saved japanese many lives.
Posted by Clerert Uneamp2772 2006-07-16 17:51||   2006-07-16 17:51|| Front Page Top

#44 6, my comment about insufficient dat was directed to Clerert Uneamp2772, not you. Sorry that was unclear.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 18:19||   2006-07-16 18:19|| Front Page Top

#45 Valentine, I'm not calling into question the decision made at the time so much as the lesson their results teache us. The lesson it teaches me is that bombing does not have a material effect on a civilian population unless it threatens them with annihilation. Thus the rockes being sent into Israel by Hezballah will have minimal effect on the outcome of the war.

However, Israel should be doing everything it can to portray them as terror tactics.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-16 18:24||   2006-07-16 18:24|| Front Page Top

#46 Dresden itself had somwhere between 110 to 127 medium to large factories and workshops that were almost entirely dedicated to the war effort along with its railway system that could have shunted materials away from Berlin, which was already being bombed, to the front line. The military was right to attack it.

Concerning Dresden, my understanding is that Churchill ordered the bombing at the request of Stalin, who was about to roll through it. Dresden mostly escaped the bombing campaign throughout the entire war. The Brits came at night, Americans finished the job during the day.
Posted by Rafael 2006-07-16 22:15||   2006-07-16 22:15|| Front Page Top

#47 The lesson it teaches me is that bombing does not have a material effect on a civilian population unless it threatens them with annihilation.

That was actually true during the entire strategic bombing campaign as carried out by the Brits. German film footage at the time shows that German civilian morale was still relatively high. So much so, that in fact the whole success of the campaign had been called into question by the end of the war. And even bomber crews weren't given campaign medals.
Posted by Rafael 2006-07-16 22:25||   2006-07-16 22:25|| Front Page Top

23:57 gorb
23:48 twobyfour
23:42 Iblis
23:41 Sherry
23:36 Iblis
23:35 Iblis
23:26 Sherry
23:25 gorb
23:21 gorb
23:19 gorb
23:18 gorb
23:17 gorb
23:09 Oldspook
23:07 Oldspook
23:07 Oldspook
23:06 ed
23:06 crosspatch
22:59 gorb
22:59 Scott R
22:59 tu3031
22:57 gorb
22:55 Anonymoose
22:54 Justrand
22:50 crosspatch









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