Article

2003-07-14 Europe

French Exceptionalism Again in the EU-(via Merde in France)

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-07-14 12:33:02 PM|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I was going to deliver a really scathing anti-french diatribe, but what's the point. Those of you whose opinions I value already agree or think worse of them than I do. The EUrons will respond with blah-blah-blither-blah-blah. I'm moving this week, and I don't have time for their shit. Later.

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-7-14 1:02:04 PM|| 2003-7-14 1:02:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 "The two are founded on radically different attitudes towards freedom. In the former, "freedom" is the gift of the government to be revoked at will, "

And I say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about.

And btw, I thought that personal opinion pieces weren't allowed here, only commentary to articles? Or may I also just post a link to an article, and then pretend it's connected to whatever irrelevant rant I want to follow it with?

For the non-Francophones among us, can you explain what "cultural exceptionalism" means?

Hodadenon> Is there anyone whose opinion you value and yet disagrees with you in anything whatsoever?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-14 1:38:18 PM|| 2003-7-14 1:38:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 In a nutshell, monarchy, except ruled by the many who think they should be or are king/queen.

Polyarchy? Elitistarchy? Cluelessarchy? Anything but the USA-archy? I'm sure the blogosphere can come up with a better term.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-7-14 1:39:13 PM|| 2003-7-14 1:39:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Happy Bastille Day!

Here's an impressive picture of French military hardware on parade in Paris today. As you can tell from the facing, these French tanks are at the rear of the parade.

Posted by Dar 2003-7-14 1:44:39 PM|| 2003-7-14 1:44:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Good catch, Dar. And I don't see any battle damage on these tanks, either. Do they stay in port like the DeGaulle?

Posted by Matt 2003-7-14 2:27:58 PM|| 2003-7-14 2:27:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Aris,

"Is there anyone whose opinion you value and yet disagrees with you in anything whatsoever?"

Certainly there are. Believe it or not, most of my friends are fairly left-wing, as they all went to the indoctrination mills...er...college while I enlisted during the Vietnam war. I value their opinions on the arts, in some fields of science (where they actually studied)and in what we call "Grand Philosophy"...night-long discussions on the whichness of why, angels on the head of a pin, etc.
But on politics and national security, they go their way and I'm correct ; )

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-7-14 2:53:50 PM|| 2003-7-14 2:53:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Dar > Thanks for the pic post. I knew the French had something like a Swiss Army knife....

Weapons that have never been used.

Actually, they were headed the other way, but the lead tank saw a couple elderly German tourists. It was just a natural reaction.

Posted by Paul 2003-7-14 4:04:22 PM|| 2003-7-14 4:04:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Must be pretty novel for the French to see French armor rolling through Paris. I wonder how many spectators surrendered?

Posted by BJD (The Dignified Rant) 2003-7-14 4:04:22 PM|| [www.geocities.com/brianjamesdunn/TDRhome.html] 2003-7-14 4:04:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Correct me if I'm wrong on this but don't those tankers appear to be wearing the white kepis of the Foreign Legion and not the usual tanker helmet?

Posted by Don 2003-7-14 4:34:36 PM|| 2003-7-14 4:34:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris,

My French translation skills are too limited to do justice to the article, so I linked to it in order that everyone here could go to it and see it for themselves.

"And I say that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about."

Fine, where are the classical liberals at work on the EU Constitution? They are non-existentent, as far as I know. d'Estaing and company positively -love- the concentration of government power that our Constitutional authors correctly distrusted.

The architects of the EU despise the classical liberal notion of rights as natural to humans and as ultimate restrictions on the state in practice. As for "cultural exceptionalism," are you unaware of the French "language police" and Internet filtering? You keep promoting the EU as some "superstate" where everyone will be a good multicultural Euro-citizen, but the evidence is otherwise. I would like to see a GENUINE union of the PEOPLE of Europe on classically humanistic and liberal grounds of tolerance and acceptance of common humanity, with a consequent denunciation of resentment and regional chauvinism as being poisonous to such a union. European chauvinism, anti-semitism and anti-Americanism argue otherwise. The EU is not based on such concepts and is not designed for either -real- union of the European peoples or -genuine- respect for human rights.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 4:45:06 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 4:45:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "Fine, where are the classical liberals at work on the EU Constitution?"

No, dude, *you* made the claim that inside the European Union rights are granted as a gift and "can be revoked at will", and therefore it's on *you* that the burden to prove such an outrageous claim is laid.

On the meantime, go pretty please to Freedomhouse's most recent yearly essay and count the number of times that a Eastern European country is said to have improved its civil and human rights because of the need to raise their standards to EU level. Dozens of years of American influence didn't manage to raise Turkey's civil rights one iota. Compare it with the effect EU is having.

The rest of what you say is just babble, and does nothing to respond to the fact that what the article was about had little to nothing to do with what your biased anti-EU rant was about, making that posting of yours nothing but an opinion piece, thinly disguised as commentary on an article.

As for the offensive insinuation about "European chauvinism, anti-semetism and anti-Americanism" as being integral to the EU as currently being built, then why don't you look at how much the communists hate the EU? Why don't you look how much the neo-Nazis hate the EU? Why don't you look at how much the fascists of every stripe hate the EU?

If it was all about anti-semetism and anti-Americanism shouldn't communists and Nazis be the first in line to support such a union?

But since you probably name anti-Americanism anything that seeks to stand outside American domination, I am not surprised to hear you call the EU that also. How cute that about 90% of Eastern Europe are at the same time "Anti-Americans" by voting to join the EU, and yet their countries supported you in the war on Iraq.

Whatever.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-14 6:02:59 PM|| 2003-7-14 6:02:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "But since you probably name anti-Americanism anything that seeks to stand outside American domination"

Bingo-there's my point. Most Americans would rejoice if EUnicks such as yourself would get on your own two legs and solve Europe's problems -without- American intervention. I seem to recall that we were dragged into Bosnia/Kosovo "unilaterally."

Regarding Eastern Europe, I'm glad to see you admitting that you're holding yourself to such a low standard of comparison as to view coming up from Marxist dictatorship to European nanny-state statist bureaucratic hell to be the ultimate triumph of human political aspiration, compared to which the political philosophy responsible for the longest running constitutional republic in existence is a mere hiccup. BTW, nice ethnocentric swipe at the Turks, Aris, you might work on your own residual Greek nationalism before pointing fingers at others.

As for the Eastern Europeans and "anti-Americanism," I was clearly speaking of the self-confessed anti-Americanism of the European elites who are behind the creation of the EU, not the propaganda about the EU being "needed" for "economic prosperity" that is being used to sell it in the East. The Eastern Europeans are going to learn, to their regret, that Chirac's attitude is that of the EU bureaucratic oligarchs as well. The Communists are against the EU because it competes with their own pan-European ideals at the level of bourgeois social democracy, not because they hate the idea of a socialist anti-American Eurostate! The European right hates the EU either because of the (false) claims of liberalism that the Union's backers are
shoveling out (Since they are revanchist nationalistic chauvinists, fascists would hate the genuine union of European peoples that I champion above. It is possible to be against a bad thing for a bad reason, Aris.) or because the EU is aimed at destroying unique national institutions that have historically done a better job of protecting liberty than d'Estaing's dubious "constitutional innovations." (cf. anti-EU Tories on the destruction of the British Constitution)

Finally, I cannot believe that you expect me to accept that the masters of the EU -do not- believe that basic human rights are not subject to bureaucratic re-definition in the name of "public safety." Cf this entry, with particular reference to the last paragraph

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 8:13:22 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 8:13:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 R. McLeod> Since Ernest seemed to imply that EU was being based on Anti-Americanism, when the most one can say is that EU strives to be not an enemy, but a *rival* of the US...

And when I talk about "domination", I mean it in the way we speak of the US as being a dominant power in world affairs. By setting up the Euro, the Europe may strive to escape the dollar's domination of the economic scene. By setting up a Euroarmy, we may have military capabilities that won't require any American support anymore. There's a de facto domination of any superpower in world affairs, benevolent or not. Trying to escape that, trying to set up a rival superpower is not anti-Americanism, no matter how much some people may want to present it as such.

American influence? Certain sparse attitudes asides, few people care to avoid American influence, meaning American movies/American music/culture/etc. Only the Islamists do that. Not the EU.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-14 8:25:37 PM|| 2003-7-14 8:25:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 R. McLeod,

Thanks, I already pointed out to Aris that the Communists simply wanted a "Comintern" rather than the EU, while the nationalistic Fascists oppose it because of their moronic "our country, right or wrong" mentality.

I'd be as happy as the cliched clam if Europeans beat us at our own game. However, they are not going to do so by whining, resentment and chauvinism. It appears that "nationalistic" exceptions are being made in order for France to perpetuate its pathetic attempts at cultural exclusivity.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 8:30:13 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 8:30:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Ernest> "glad to see you admitting that you're holding yourself to such a low standard of comparison as to view coming up from Marxist dictatorship to European nanny-state statist bureaucratic hell to be the ultimate triumph of human political aspiration"

And Americans rejoiced Iraq's and Afghanistan "liberation" when they merely replaced two tyrannical regimes with ones currently prone to civil war and anarchy. I'd say that compared to that, the establishment of stronger democracies in the Eastern Europe is something worth mentioning.

But hey you can also compare the Eastern democracies that *aren't* close to joining up the EU. Like Belarus or Ukraine or Moldova. Check the civil rights there.

"BTW, nice ethnocentric swipe at the Turks, Aris,"

You know, I ethnocentrically get annoyed when people use the greek word "ethnocentric" without seeming to know what it means. It's not "ethnocentric" to indicate the one sucky nation under American influence, instead of Soviet one, which is currently improving because of *EU* (not American) influence.

"I was clearly speaking of the self-confessed anti-Americanism of the European elites who are behind the creation of the EU"

Oh, yes, and what self-confessed anti-Americanism is that? The one that "self-confesses" we want to be a rival power? That's not anti-Americanism, you bozo. Look at Al-Qaeda rhetoric, *that's* anti-Americanism.

The communists are against the EU, because the EU is a place of liberal democracy. Same reason all fascists hate the EU. Same reason Heider hated the EU.

And as for national institutions having "historically" done a better job of protecting liberty than the dubious "constitutional innovations", please, "historically" give me an example of the EU doing anything that went against the personal liberty of an individual. Give me a single example of the EU depriving a right from a citizen that the member state in question provided.

And I note that the article you linked talks about "Constitutional rights" and talks about the Second Amendment, as if the Constitution and the Second Amendment *provided* the right to have guns, instead of simply recognizing a god-given pan-human right.

Funny that, and hypocritical. In other forums I've heard Americans speak about how there's no such thing as "right to privacy" because it's nowhere mentioned in the constitution. Another cute thing, which I'd never expect a European to utter.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-14 8:47:36 PM|| 2003-7-14 8:47:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Aris,

"Since Ernest seemed to imply that EU was being based on Anti-Americanism..."

No, but it is one of the chief -actual- motivations for the EU's existence, aside from a -genuine- necessity for Europeans (and not -just- Europeans) to rid themselves of bigoted nationalism. Look, Aris, we "cowboy Americans (or Europeans)" here at Rantburg who distrust the EU's creators are not anxious for there to be more ethnic violence and potential world war triggers happening on the European continent. (If there is anyone here who -does- want this please speak up for yourself) The EU is shaping up as a top-down inflexible bureaucratic model that just seems to be a re-statement of the mistakes of Europe's past history written on a continent-wide scale. Much of the political success the U.S. has had in preserving freedom has come from the -profound distrust- of concentrated political power that was the best legacy of our Founding Fathers. This isn't a case of "America good, Europe bad." I'm the first to admit that the United States needs a revival of good Enlightenment values and classical liberty.

The second point is that Europe shouldn't even -worry- about the U.S. before it fixes its own house. If you transfer the international resentments between European countries (justified or not) to America (ditto) as an -excuse- for unity, then you have just transferred a chief "sin" of nationalism to the EU.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 9:05:32 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 9:05:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 "Much of the political success the U.S. has had in preserving freedom has come from the -profound distrust- of concentrated political power that was the best legacy of our Founding Fathers."

Actually the best success in preserving freedom came only after the abolition of slavery, and that was a case of federal concentrated power stepping in to ensure the human rights that the separate states were *not* ensuring.

And you have no clue what you are talking about when you compare some of the current rivalry and occasional resentment towards the US in Europe with the traditional old hostilities between Europea nations, carved in dozens of massacres and tons of blood.

It's a whole different league, and *that's* why I get annoyed when you talk about EU anti-Americanism, as if it's anywhere near the way the Serbs and Croats started massacring each other, or the way Greek chauvinists would still feel towards Turkey and vice-versa.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-7-14 9:17:18 PM|| 2003-7-14 9:17:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Aris,

"And I note that the article you linked talks about "Constitutional rights" and talks about the Second Amendment, as if the Constitution and the Second Amendment *provided* the right to have guns, instead of simply recognizing a god-given pan-human right. Funny that, and hypocritical."

*Sigh,* not at all. I suppose that I should have pointed out that I disagreed with Den Beste's use of "preserved." It indicates an philosophical confusion in his entry, which actually points out that it is the people who have internalized the defense of those rights which guarantee the same rights and not a "scrap of paper" which is obviously not self-enforcing and which was not regarded as being self-enforcing by the people who wrote it, hence the 2nd Amendment!

Also, Aris, keep in mind when speaking of things like "the right to privacy" that not all Americans are (or were) classical liberals.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 9:29:40 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 9:29:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "carved in dozens of massacres and tons of blood"

Tons of blood???...is that one of those EU things? Some new form of liquid measure meant to confound simplistic Americans?

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-7-14 9:34:11 PM|| 2003-7-14 9:34:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#20
"Much of the political success the U.S. has had in preserving freedom has come from the -profound distrust- of concentrated political power that was the best legacy of our Founding Fathers." Actually the best success in preserving freedom came only after the abolition of slavery, and that was a case of federal concentrated power stepping in to ensure the human rights that the separate states were *not* ensuring."

You failed to pay attention to my "best" in "best legacy," Aris. The -worst- legacy of the Founding Fathers was the Constitutional compromise that -mandated- the protection of slavery at the Federal level in the first place. (which, ironically, rather disproves your point) Even the most racist of them (Jefferson) recognized that it was a fatal contradiction, and as it happened it caused the United States to be the only country in the world to -not- end slavery by the stroke of a pen.

As for current European criticisms of American domestic and terror policy, the camps at Gitmo are a direct legacy of the seizure of power that Lincoln took upon himself in the Civil War. (Lincoln established such military tribunals -within- the borders of the United States for "unlawful combatants") It is not the first time that a desirable end (eliminating slavery) has had undesirable side effects.

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 9:49:33 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 9:49:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 As a European (capitalist but born on the wrong continent) having lived in Sweden, Switzerland, France, the UK, and the US, I can confirm that European culture is overwhelmingly as follows: individual "freedom" is a mere privilege granted and limited by the State (not to say The Collective). There is NO understanding of the American concept of individual freedom that defines and limits the scope of government.

And Aris is either in need of education or dishonest. He would profit from reading Aristotle, for starters.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2003-7-14 9:53:53 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2003-7-14 9:53:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Kalle,

Indeed! The sad thing is that I'm not even saying "America good, Europe bad, ook ook" as Aris implies.

As Americans, we know from experience what happens when you put just -one- bad thing in an otherwise pretty exemplary (but not "holy writ")document. The EU Constitution isn't nearly that good!

Posted by Ernest Brown 2003-7-14 10:04:27 PM|| [saturninretrograde.blogspot.com] 2003-7-14 10:04:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I forgot to mention that, in the 8+ months I've been reading Rantburg regularly, I cannot recall a SINGLE instance when Aris ever conceded a point. Not one.

All those posts, all those people, all those thoughts from brighter-than-average minds with wildly varying experiences and knowledge were all either stupid and wrong - or they had stupidly misunderstood him - and were wrong.

We are all boneheads and need to yield the thread, immediately without question, should Aris decide to grace us with his undeniable wisdom.

We are not worthy.

Posted by PD 2003-7-14 11:16:05 PM|| 2003-7-14 11:16:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Mr. Kettle, Mr. Pot is on line one,
Mr. Pot call from Mr. Kettle on line two

Posted by Anonymous 2003-7-15 3:34:18 PM|| 2003-7-15 3:34:18 PM|| Front Page Top

15:34 Anonymous
05:32 Aris Katsaris
23:27 tu3031
23:24 Anonymous
23:16 PD
23:09 tu3031
23:02 Anonymous
23:01 tu3031
23:00 Alaska Paul
22:56 tu3031
22:44 Barbara Skolaut
22:43 Barbara Skolaut
22:41 Barbara Skolaut
22:35 PD
22:28 tu3031
22:04 Ernest Brown
21:53 Kalle (kafir forever)
21:49 Ernest Brown
21:48 Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)
21:34 Hodadenon
21:29 Ernest Brown
21:17 Aris Katsaris
21:07 Aris Katsaris
21:05 Ernest Brown