Article

2009-06-18 Syria-Lebanon-Iran

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Posted by Steve White 2009-06-18 00:00|| || Front Page|| [7 views ] Top

#1 NY Times ceased being a news source years ago. It is hard to record history without them but I manage quite well. I prefer to not even traffic their site.

Posted by newc">newc 2009-06-18 00:26|| 2009-06-18 00:26|| Front Page Top

#2 Trying to avoid getting their necks measured for a lamp post dance.

Posted by Procopius2k 2009-06-18 08:00|| 2009-06-18 08:00|| Front Page Top

#3 Im not sure what you mean when you say Qom isnt 'conservative'. Do you mean they are activists violating the Shiite traditions of quietism? Or that they arent supporters of what we in the US call conservative? If the former, I agree, and perhaps a better word would be reactionary. Khomeinism is paradoxical - its a revolutionary movement, and a mass mobilization movement (and thus modern) but its a reaction against the disruption of traditional conservative society by secularist modernization under the Shah - in that sense it is VERY much like Western fascism. And, I would add, without going all nutjob on you, it is, IF you discount for totalarianism, terror support (Huge IF, I know), etc at least distanly related to certain fundamentalist movements in the US. Like fascism, Khomeinism uses modernist mobilization techniques and war against foreign enemies to assuage the anxieties of a conservative population threatened by change.

As for Moussavi not being liberal - again, are you making the banal (and generally useless) quible between "classical liberalism" and "progressive liberalism" - its not uncommon in the blogosphere for "classical liberals" to get jealous about a word whose meaning had evolved by the time of Lloyd George (let alone FDR) Or that the Teherhan protestors arent really liberal in either sense since the majority are likely to accept SOME from of legal islamism that violates our view of seperation of religion and state? Or are you asserting that Moussavi is really closer to Rafsanjani "pragmatic khomeinism" than to the Teherean strett? The latter is an interesting and complex issue - I think its clear that even during the campaign Moussavis public position was different from that when he last held office, and his position may have evolved further due to his movement. Politicians are sometimes captives to their supporters, and their enemies. I think especially of the biographies of both Gorby and Yeltisn in this regard.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-06-18 11:40|| 2009-06-18 11:40|| Front Page Top

#4 Im not sure what you mean when you say Qom isnt 'conservative'. Do you mean they are activists violating the Shiite traditions of quietism? Or that they arent supporters of what we in the US call conservative? If the former, I agree, and perhaps a better word would be reactionary. Khomeinism is paradoxical - its a revolutionary movement, and a mass mobilization movement (and thus modern) but its a reaction against the disruption of traditional conservative society by secularist modernization under the Shah - in that sense it is VERY much like Western fascism. And, I would add, without going all nutjob on you, it is, IF you discount for totalarianism, terror support (Huge IF, I know), etc at least distanly related to certain fundamentalist movements in the US. Like fascism, Khomeinism uses modernist mobilization techniques and war against foreign enemies to assuage the anxieties of a conservative population threatened by change.

You are relying on two big straw-men in this supposition: that western conservatives are the way they are because they're a bunch of frightened country mice hiding from societal change, and that the only difference between conservatism and fascism is in degree or the volume of the megaphone.

Both of these arguments have been very useful for the left over the last half-century, especially in getting people to _stop thinking_ and vote for the left, but that doesn't mean the rest of us believe in them.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2009-06-18 12:11|| 2009-06-18 12:11|| Front Page Top

#5 "that western conservatives are the way they are because they're a bunch of frightened country mice hiding from societal change"

I said no such thing. I did not generalize about conservatives, of whom there are many varieties. I did state that there are right wing movements in this country whose social roots are analogous to those in other countries where people feel threatened by change. We can argue about exactly which movements those are and what their relations are to mainstream conservatives, or whether their specific explicit grievances are justified but I think its undeniable that they exist.

"and that the only difference between conservatism and fascism is in degree or the volume of the megaphone." I did not say that either. Again, I was not speaking about conservatives in general. I WAS attempting to distance MYSELF from folks like Andrew Sullivan who sometimes elide the profound moral distintion between say, someone in the US whose fear of gay rights leads them to support a referendum on marriage, and someone in Saudi Arabia whose fear leads him to support hanging gays.

Posted by liberal hawk 2009-06-18 12:18|| 2009-06-18 12:18|| Front Page Top

#6 I did state that there are right wing movements in this country whose social roots are analogous to those in other countries where people feel threatened by change. We can argue about exactly which movements those are and what their relations are to mainstream conservatives, or whether their specific explicit grievances are justified but I think its undeniable that they exist.

Please be more specific if you could LH. I generally find your positions to be well thought out, but I think that if you're going to make this assertion you should name names.

Not trying to bait you. I'm curious what you think.

Posted by Secret Master 2009-06-18 18:56|| 2009-06-18 18:56|| Front Page Top

#7 "whose fear of gay rights leads them to support a referendum on marriage, and someone in Saudi Arabia whose fear leads him to support hanging gays."

actually supporting a state referendum is constitutional & w/in the law. Many libs love state referendums, especially if it endorses a cause they believe in. It's when they lose at the referendum ballot box (cali gay marriage three times) that those conservatives (and blacks and hispanics) who supported the referendum are all now homophobes or whatever.

Posted by Broadhead6 2009-06-18 19:07|| 2009-06-18 19:07|| Front Page Top

#8 Now nothing shakes up a pitch man like getting what he thinks is a good throw hit right back at'em and into center field.

In many ways continued negotiations, what seems to be the preferred method of relations with Iran, will now be even more difficult as either dinner jacket will be shown as a totalitarian, a new leader with a tenative grasp of power, or civil uprising with no official figurehead to deal with other than the clerics.

If that is what the administration meant by dealing with Iran anyways it isn't articulated very well. In any case real decisions with real consequences are imminant, and where salesmen and managers are seperated.

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-06-18 19:43|| 2009-06-18 19:43|| Front Page Top

#9 OK. I'll take your word for it that you were trying to distance yourself from those similar arguments people like Sullivan were making.

As for the whole 'social movement' thing... I think it underestimates the degree to which radical islam borrows from other radical movements of the 20th century, whether the communsits or the real fascists of Italy or Spain.

I may write something on this later on in the week in opinion, but I'm gonna get ready to turn in now.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2009-06-18 23:12|| 2009-06-18 23:12|| Front Page Top

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