Article

2004-06-26 Iraq-Jordan

Iraqi Insurgents Are Surprisingly Cohesive, Armitage Says

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Posted by rex 2004-06-26 4:39:54 AM|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Rex, how can you breathe with your head so firmly planted up your ass?

Stupid Moby.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-06-26 11:42:01 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-06-26 11:42:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Wolfowitz, huh? Article's about Armitage. If you intend to post a Wolf-bashing agenda, post articles that match, at least?

Posted by Frank G 2004-06-26 11:46:30 AM|| 2004-06-26 11:46:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Yikes - looks like the short bus unloaded

Posted by Crikey 2004-06-26 12:41:40 PM|| 2004-06-26 12:41:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Before anyone starts dissing me for blaming Wolfowitz unfairly, I think it would be prudent if you read the article instead of reacting with your "we love Wolfie" knee jerk response. My post has been heavily edited by the moderator, I might add, and in so doing the moderator has deleted the Wolfowitz's testimony.

Everyone was happy went George Tenet was fired because he provided GWB with faulty WMD intelligence. The buck stopped at Tenet's desk, as it should have. But when it comes to Wolfowitz, in some people's minds, Wolfowitz is infallible and is a godlike visionary.

I'd suggest that you measure Wolfowitz by the results and not because he is Jewish. Wolfowitz did not get his job in the Defense Dept on the basis of his religion. He was hired to perform. He has not done this and is turning into an albatross for George Bush. Wolfowitz needs to resign or be fired before the November election.

As for Armitage, in my original post, which I said has been heavily modified to the extent I can't remeber what I wrote, I believe I said that Wolfowitz should be fired and he should take his pal from State with him. The whole State Dept is useless so fire Armitage who cares about State? Armitage is not the architect of the war. The general public can't remeber Armitage's name from the salesman who comes to their door and sells magazines, BUT Wolfowitz, I guarantee you, J.Q. Public knows if Rummey's #2 man and is the neocon who devised the Iraq invasion. Because Wolfowitz has that kind of visibility and recognizability he needs to go. It's the person who designed this war, who is testifying that he does not know anything more about the enemy in Iraq now than Aunt Edith from Kansas City knows - that person should be fired and that person is Wolfowitz. I rest my case.

Posted by rex 2004-06-26 12:47:56 PM|| 2004-06-26 12:47:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 As usual, WaPo is putting its editorials on the news pages, giving us another one of its "quagmire" stories. And Rex, who should know that WaPo has no credibility around here, is mobying around, looking to stick pins in the Bush administration. Like I said earlier - Wolfowitz isn't to blame - the buck stops at GWB's desk. I suspect that like his liberal cohorts, Rex thinks that GWB is too dumb to make his own decisions. Based on his criticism of Tenet, Rex probably also thinks that the reason for invading Iraq was WMD's. Well, Rex, if you think the only justifiable reason for invading Iraq was WMD's, you should vote for Kerry.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-26 2:00:31 PM|| 2004-06-26 2:00:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Let's see, the "insurgents" have been launching "increasingly sophisticated" operations since, oh, about last August, according to US officials. This has been noted about twice per week in the major media since that time. So by now, with nearly a year of "increasingly sophisticated" operations, why isn't the enemy using directed-energy weapons from space platforms?

A friend who's on the ground intel side working all these issues (IEDs, ambushes) laughed at this line, and it turned out others in his section have been saying the same thing for months. They attribute the "increasing sophistication" line to way too many analysts working on just a few problems, plus the standard negative sensationalism beloved of the press. Aside from the mechanics of IEDs and some apparent operational tips suspected of being brought in by Chechens, there hasn't been much change. The coordination issue is sort of real, though the scope and scale of operations the enemy can mount are so limited that even that is not a game-changer. If all you can do is take a police station for 90 minutes while losing 2/3 of your guys, it's not so important that you can do it in Ramadi and Samarra the same morning.

Car bombs, assassinations, and hired hands are all old stories. It's hard to distinguish the separate elements of government coyness, government incompetence, and typical bad journalism here.

I'm a bit surprised we haven't gone on a major offensive starting last week. The Iraqis clearly need more time to get up to speed, even though there were some encouraging performances in Mosul and elsewhere.

If the bad guys can't mount something about 5 times as big as Thursday's festivities in the coming week, that'll show they're pretty weak. The realization that this is essentially a civil war with foreign meddling seems to be dawning in more Iraqi minds, so that part of the transition is moving very smartly. If the Iraqis can build on that with some aggressiveness and competence at the street level, the doomed insurgency will be snuffed more quickly.

Posted by Verlaine 2004-06-26 2:02:36 PM|| 2004-06-26 2:02:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 all that working out has made the microcephalic armitage's brain shrink as well as his head

Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2004-06-26 2:05:00 PM|| 2004-06-26 2:05:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 WaPo: the sophistication of recent attacks has come as a bit of a surprise, according to testimony yesterday

That's like saying the size of the Tet attacks in Vietnam came as a bit of a surprise. The fact is that guerrillas can choose the time and place of an attack. What they can't control is the American response to it, which is likely to be swift and overwhelming. During Tet, the US lost 1,600 men in exchange for an estimated 50,000 Vietcong dead, who were so numerous they had to be buried in mass graves. And this was mostly a draftee force fighting against some of the most skilled guerrillas the modern world has seen. Can anyone doubt that Iraqi insurgents are licking their wounds after street battles fought against our professionals? The KIA figures are telling - March (39), April (131), May (65), June Month-to-Date (39).* If this is the best the jihadis can manage with their "increasingly sophisticated" attacks, they're in deep doo-doo.

* Note that I don't quote pro-coalition Iraqi casualty figures. That's because I don't see them as a problem. Tribal vengeance strikes both ways. Iraqi casualties are an asset - in the Arab fashion, they are blood debts that give the pro-coalition tribes a concrete reason to strike back at the insurgents. Besides, I don't see Iraqis as having paid much of a price relative to our South Vietnamese allies in the Vietnam War, where they lost 5 KIA to every American KIA for a total of 250,000 dead during the war, or about 4,000 killed per month. When I hear of 10 pro-coalition Iraqi military dead per day in Iraq, I'll believe the Iraqis are really making a contribution.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-26 2:29:55 PM|| 2004-06-26 2:29:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 rex, you love to complain about Wolfowitz (the Evil Prince of the Dreaded "Neo-Con" Cabal around President Bush), but Armitage is a State Department tool of the first water!

To all my fave RBers, which is the rest of you: I love you guys!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-26 2:34:57 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-26 2:34:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 And Rex, who should know that WaPo has no credibility around here, is mobying around, looking to stick pins in the Bush administration.
No, I am not mobying around, whatever that means, mr. armchair soldier. I am stating fact. And in this article the Washington Post was quoting testimony. If you don't believe the testimony quoted, request a transcript from the Senate Armed Services committee and compare. If Wolfowitz were working in your company and produced such poor results based on dated academic knowledge, he would be fired. Give me a break.

Like I said earlier - Wolfowitz isn't to blame - the buck stops at GWB's desk.
Duh...that's what many American voters might believe too, and if Wolfowitz does not take the fall now, who do you think will get blamed in November???

I suspect that like his liberal cohorts,
Wrong, bucko, I am not liberal. I loathe liberals. And in fact, that is why I hold neocons with suspicion unless they prove themselves otherwise inclined, I think most neocons are liberals at heart.

Rex thinks [ do you read minds? I'll do my own thinking. I don't need you as an interpreter, but thanks for the offer] that GWB is too dumb to make his own decisions.
GWB relies heavily on delegation of authority and feedback from his managers. He is a CEO type of president and based on his experience in the business world, although GWB makes the final decision it's very likely based on what the majority of his trusted managers think. That's how CEO's run firms. Business 101, zhang.

Also with regards to Iraq, GWB's born again Christianity, likely played heavily in his optimism about the support he would receive from the "liberated" Iraqis.

Based on his criticism of Tenet,
Say what??? Tenet should have been fired on 9/12/01. In fact, Tenet being a hold over from Clinton days, should have been replaced as soon as GWB moved into the WH, on the very basis that everyone including GWB knew that Clinton was ineffective in fighting terrorism, and Tenet would similarly have been judged ineffective too.
One of the major reasons quoted by Powell was WMD and the fear that Saddam was not meeting the UN resolutions because he did not want us to find those WMD. Have you had ear plugs in your ears? Tenet's department proved faulty intelligence to GWB, which was one of the cited underpinings for the Iraq invasion. Of course he deserved to be fired. Is there any doubt????

Rex probably also thinks that the reason for invading Iraq was WMD's.
Well, yes, it was one of the cited reasons. Weren't you ever listening to Colin Powell and Rumsfeld defending themselves against the fact that they could not find WMD and they were both surprised at this anomaly?

Well, Rex, if you think the only justifiable reason for invading Iraq was WMD's, you should vote for Kerry.
I never said WMD was the only reason. But it sure was a major reason that was cited by the WH. You think we should expend 80 Billion dollars and 900 GI lives just to liberate people who it turns out hate us for the most part, except for the Kurds? Does that make good sense to you? Thanks but no thanks America has better things to do with tax money and with soldiers' lives.You want to play social worker with the downtrodden in the world, do it on your own dime, zheng, and with your own life. Ditto for playing Johnny Appleseed with democracy in hellholes in the ME on the 1 out of 100 percent chance that Muslims are capable of embracing democracy. Muslims have never supported a democracy in thousands of years[oh yes, there's that smashing example called Turkey] and suddenly we are to have blind faith in the wild eyed hope that Iraq will be different. Stop drinking that Kool Aid, zhang.

Quit putting words in my mouth. If you want to debate me, use the words I say and not the words YOU THINK I said.

Posted by rex 2004-06-26 2:54:41 PM|| 2004-06-26 2:54:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes, Wolfowitz is the architect of the Iraq War. And maybe you should read the article and Wolfowitz's testimony which was edited out by the moderator, Jen , before you defend Wolfowiz. I do not understand this "amore" for Wolfowitz. If he were working in Sharon's cabinet, he would have been fired months ago. What's this cult affection for Wolfowitz? He has proven to be as ineffectual as Tenet and should be fired. He is a liability to GWB and if you can't see that fact, I think it's you that have blinders, not me. Fire Armitage, too. I have no problem with that. But it's Wolfowitz who will bring GWB down in November, not Armitage. Don't deceive yourself otherwise.

Posted by rex 2004-06-26 3:00:36 PM|| 2004-06-26 3:00:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Rex: I never said WMD was the only reason. But it sure was a major reason that was cited by the WH. You think we should expend 80 Billion dollars and 900 GI lives just to liberate people who it turns out hate us for the most part, except for the Kurds?

It has never been my position that liberating the Iraqis or finding WMD's were particularly important reasons for invading Iraq. The administration says what it does because that's the reality of diplomacy. The hidden agenda is to scare the crap out of the Muslim regimes the world over. If the US had told the world about this reason up-front, then governments the world over would have organized against us, as they did against the Soviets when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan. Think of the Iraqi insurgents armed with billions of dollars of the latest European and Russian weapons donated and shipped in through Syria, Saudi Arabia and Iran.

We don't tell everyone what we're really after in the same way we don't tell workers about to be laid off that we're firing them because they're a bunch of dysfunctional slackers - we don't want them coming back with AK-47's. No - we're letting them go because of competition from Mexico. That's the reality of diplomacy - we leave out important truths to prevent neutrals from either becoming enemies or joining forces with our enemies.

Rex: No, I am not mobying around, whatever that means, mr. armchair soldier.

Armchair appeasers like you have caused the deaths of 4,000 Americans (including those killed in Afghanistan and Iraq). I make no apologies for requiring that our armed forces carry out its basic mission - which is to kill those of America's enemies that are threatening us, either directly or indirectly through sponsoring terrorist attacks. America's diplomats have bounced from one failure to another, resulting in 9/11 and the emergence of the nuclear powers North Korea and Iran - the time for talk is over.

Like I said, national security is everyone's responsibility, even Rex's. If a general mobilization order comes around, I will serve. If called upon, will Rex run away like the little armchair appeaser he is? Maybe he can follow in the footsteps of Mel Gibson's dad, and spend the rest of his life ranting against Jews, from Australia.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-26 3:19:21 PM|| 2004-06-26 3:19:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Are you coming unhinged, zhang? I have never ranted against Jews. I support Israel 100%, unlike many liberal Jews as a matter of fact. I just don't believe that incompetence should bve tolerated just because the incompetent person is Jewish. And I resent your putting words in my mouth that I have never said. Take a chill pill and start reading what people say, and not imagine what they say. How do you know what I would or would not do in a major war?

Posted by rex 2004-06-26 3:24:33 PM|| 2004-06-26 3:24:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Rex: Are you coming unhinged, zhang? I have never ranted against Jews. I support Israel 100%, unlike many liberal Jews as a matter of fact. I just don't believe that incompetence should bve tolerated just because the incompetent person is Jewish.

Now Wolfowitz is merely incompetent? From your earlier writings, I thought he was a war-lover and a draft-dodger.

Rex: Take a chill pill and start reading what people say, and not imagine what they say. How do you know what I would or would not do in a major war?

What you would or would not do in a major war? Sounds pretty Clintonite to me. My basic position is that if Uncle Sam asks me to report for duty, I'll show up. Rex requires a major war of his definition before he'll show. Sounds real Gibson-like to me.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-26 3:37:44 PM|| 2004-06-26 3:37:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Iraqi Insurgents Are Surprisingly Cohesive...

Yep, it's true. Their bodies don't come apart half as much as Syrian insurgent's do when hit by .50 cal.

Posted by Zpaz 2004-06-26 4:22:35 PM|| 2004-06-26 4:22:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 These WaPo editorials masquerading as news remind me of liberal arts majors taking math classes in college when they are called upon to answer questions - all words and no numbers delivered glibly even though the answer was wrong. Instead of looking at the numbers, which are the true measure of success, they rely on anecdotal information slanted a certain way to infer that the enemy is winning and our boys are losing. Why do they do this? Whether it's incompetence or anti-Americanism is irrevelant - the fact is that the information we get from them is nothing more and nothing less than enemy propaganda, and we should treat it as such.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-06-26 5:36:06 PM|| [http://www.polipundit.com] 2004-06-26 5:36:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Officials in the State and Defense departments told senators yesterday that they know relatively little about the enemy in Iraq but they believe thousands of hidden fighters are more organized than previously thought and are likely to continue deadly attacks in coming weeks and months.

If these guys "know relatively little" about the enemy, why even say anything? Guessing isn't going to be of much value. Why not say, "we can't offer any comment at this time"?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-06-26 5:46:45 PM|| 2004-06-26 5:46:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 rex, You provide no details, explanation or evidence that Wolfowitz is incompetent because you can't.
Typical poorly read Liberal: Just repeat your talking points over and over.
(And you forgot to bash Richard Perle! Don't you hate him, too?)
The fact that we took Iraq militarily in 3 weeks and are about to install a new Saddam- and torture-free government next week that will have women and Kurds, Shiites and Sunni Baathists governing together speaks volumes that Wolfie's and Rummy's plans have been a huge Success!

Posted by Jen 2004-06-26 6:00:45 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-06-26 6:00:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Eveur thing is beautiful!
In it's own way!

Posted by Ray Harpi Stevens 2004-06-26 8:43:50 PM|| 2004-06-26 8:43:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 This may come as a big surprise to you, Jen, but most people, myself included, don't "hate" or "love" public figures. Maybe that's how you go through life, but I don't, so don't project your emotional reactions to public figures on me.

In my humble objective opinion, [is that clear enough to you?]I think Wolfowitz should resign because he is steadily becoming a greater liability to GWB. The DNC probably would love to have Wolfowitz stay, just like they loved that Tenet stayed. In fact, the Democrats, if you recall, were all choked up about Tenet's resignation. Get it? It serves the DNC's cause to have liabilities surround GWB.

Someone has to take the bullet for the mess in Iraq, and it is a mess, dear, and it's either got to be Rumsfeld or Wolfowitz to take the fall. Rumsfeld is a more engaging ex-military persona-he's telegenic and I think the public likes him. Wolfowitz, on the otherhand, is distant, not warm, he's an academic with no military experience and he is the most clearly recognizable "point man" for this airy fairy idea that it is America's mandate to spread democracy like Johnny Appleseed to Iraq.

You may like that theory, Jen, but it's not an something that J.Q. Public relates to or agrees with. Liberating 26 million Iraqis IS NOT IMPORTANT TO MOST AMERICANS. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? Especially when those same Iraqis hate Americans[except for the Kurds] and money is being diverted from the USA to Iraq. What does America get out of this? And puhleaze don't tell me about how Iraq will be the role model for other Muslim countries and how our GI's will use Iraq as a magnet for terrorists and keep America out of the sights of terrorists. Iraq is iffy, and even if it becomes a successful democracy it will take 100's of years to have this happen. Furthermore, terrorists are still plotting horrible things for America. This country is not off the radar for Al Queda. If our country's security was so improved due to the Iraq War, John Ashcroft would have disbanded the terrorism alert system, yes?? He hasn't.

Wolfowitz should have anticipated and developed contingency plans for Iraq. He didn't. It's obvious. What details do you want me to provide? Don't you read? He had no idea how much it would cost to stabilize Iraq. GWB is always going back begging for more $. Wolfowitz had no clue about how many troops we'd need to "occupy" Iraq, and as a result Rumsfeld have had to issue "stop orders" to GI's and he's had to extend stays of the National Guard. Wolfowitz has no clue about the approximate date when we will withdraw troops from Iraq-this mmumbling about "as long as it takes" may satisfy you but for most Americans that sounds like something a muddled incompetent would say. Is it 2 years? 5 yearss ? 10 years? 20 years? 100 years? he's #2 in the Defense Separtment-can't he hazard a guess? Wolfowitz was unprepared for what transpired in Najef or Fallujah. He had no clue that ordinary Iraqis would tolerate terrorists in their midst. Look at the flip flops and miscues in dealing with Najef and Fallujah. Is this list long enough for you? If Wolfowitz tried to pull this off in business, he would have been fired in short order.

Wolfowitz is an ACADEMIC. He has experience with ideas, not with battlefield experience. Wolfowitz was an Ambassador in Indonesia 13 years ago and this dated and limited experience was proof enough to Wolfowitz that Asian Muslims could be allies and could embrace democracy. Say what????Read this guy's assumptions about what Muslims want. It's bizarre. he's in la-la-la land because he's a theorist, he's an academic. He was wrong, obviously as it applies to Sunni/Shiite Iraqis.
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-se1422.html
When evil of this magnitude is loose in the world, it will not stop until it has claimed for itself the ultimate power of wrenching from people across the globe any sense of peace and security they now enjoy. Unchecked, this evil will spread. It threatens not only America. It threatens hundreds of millions of moderate Muslims in East Asia who are among the principal targets of the terrorists. And it threatens the fundamental dreams of freedom and tolerance and democracy that embody what the terrorists hate.
How can he so sure? This is a broad generalization about a religious group that he dreamed up when he was a valued US representative, a "visitor", to one region of the world. This guy has no business using a one size fits all THEORY about Muslims.

Wolfowitz mis-judged Iraqis. He needs to accept the responsibility. I have no opinion about Perle-he's not even in GWB's cabinet, what does Perle have to do with the upcoming November election? Focus, please, Jen.

As for you Zhang, I've spent way too much time answering your emotionally laced impressionistic comments about what I have never said or what you think I would do in a hypothetical situation. You obviously don't care to read my posts before you respond. I will not waste my time on someone who chooses not to debate issues with fact or ideas, but just put-downs and innuendos.

Posted by rex 2004-06-26 10:18:05 PM|| 2004-06-26 10:18:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Troll'jan (noun)

A) overtly the induhvidual is apparently rational, reasonable, and likely articulate; uses spell-checker on one-word posts; posts to establish credibility focused primarily on:
1) anti-jihadi spew to establish outrage thus humanity
2) lauds military to establish unquestioned patriotic stance
3) when on meds only mildly critical of US policy - a low-grade spew designed to plant doubts, questions; avoids tirade mode

B) this induhvidual is wracked by pressure differential between external highly moderated persona and internal dysfunctional schizophrenia; when off meds or pressure overload breaks seal, remarkably disingenuous and irrational spew are ejected; Oreo: vanilla cookies with bile-cream center

C) Stealth BushHitler Syndrome

Posted by .com 2004-06-26 11:07:14 PM|| 2004-06-26 11:07:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Gosh. Thanks a lot, .com. I just pulled something.

(...uses spell-checker on one-word posts...no worries, it only hurts when I laugh...)

Posted by Quana 2004-06-26 11:16:27 PM|| 2004-06-26 11:16:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Well put .com!
And if you dare call them on that, they will accuse you of being totally brainwashed by the extreme right whose gran Kahuna is Bush, of course. I wonder if any of them can imagine what it would be like to be in Bush's and some of his cabinet member's shoes and having to make decisions that could have grave consequences not just for the US but for a great part of the world.

Posted by Anonymous4617 2004-06-26 11:30:05 PM|| 2004-06-26 11:30:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Zhang Fei usually speaks great sense and has a good sense of real politik.

Zhang makes a great point about Diplomacy and the real reasons for going to Iraq.

But rex makes a tight case for firing Wolfowitz.

GWB does not need any non-performers in his management team. If he is a dud, chuck him on the rubbish pile!

.com added nothing to the debate except to attack the man not the argument.

Perhaps an appeal to authority would work as it has in the past. Rex, simply say you work in Iraq for the WH, that should satisfy .com.

.com, what do you think serves the cause better? a) agreeing with keeping a dud around because you must be a troll if you question his competence? Or b) agreeing with firing the dud and getting top people on your team?

team b) will defeat team a) in any competition at any time in any given place because they aren't subject to emotive, totalitarian ideas about not criticising/questioning your own position and thus making it stronger and tougher.

Posted by Anon1 2004-06-27 4:06:15 AM|| 2004-06-27 4:06:15 AM|| Front Page Top

17:53 Frank G
17:47 Mrs. Davis
17:32 lex
17:25 Mrs. Davis
17:23 Anonymous6473
14:36 Bomb-a-rama
22:02 Zenster
14:16 .com
13:59 Aris Katsaris
11:51 Frank G
11:39 Aris Katsaris
11:12 Anon1
10:58 Jen
10:52 Aris Katsaris
10:45 Jen
10:36 Aris Katsaris
10:15 Anon1
10:08 Larry Everett
10:05 Shipman
10:04 Jen
08:25 Aris Katsaris
08:22 Aris Katsaris
05:32 Bomb-a-rama
04:06 Anon1