Article

2003-06-17 Europe

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Posted by growler 2003-06-17 03:34 pm|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Just speculating (of course) but if East Germany hadn't had West Germany to fall into like a child coming home from a bad year away at college, I bet we could say that ALL of the former communist countries would agree with Bush. The Easties have been spared the tough decisions, society-wise, since the West Germans ate the big one absorbing all their pain. Still, they bitch.....

Posted by Frank G 6/17/2003 8:33:12 PM|| 6/17/2003 8:33:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 For crissakes, just change it to the French Union and get it over with, willya? Knock off the "we give a shit about the rest of Europe" act.
Yeah, as long as they do what they're told.

Posted by tu3031 2003-06-17 15:55:58|| 2003-06-17 15:55:58|| Front Page Top

#3 Berlusconi has some cojones! I'm liking Italy better and better.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2003-06-17 16:12:27|| 2003-06-17 16:12:27|| Front Page Top

#4 I believe the correct term is testicoli.

Posted by Mike 2003-06-17 16:30:37|| 2003-06-17 16:30:37|| Front Page Top

#5 I've visited both Frawnce and Italy, and prefer the Italian venue any day. The people are much friendlier, the food is just as good, and if you travel in late April or early May, it's hot enough to go to the beach, but not so hot it's uncomfortable. The prices are also lower!

Berlusconi has brought pride back to Italy, and the people are responding. Italy can no longer be considered anyone's whipping boy. Even their Air Force is improving...

Posted by Old Patriot 2003-06-17 16:31:13|| 2003-06-17 16:31:13|| Front Page Top

#6 Berlusconi (or Blair) should get together the heads of the Liberty loving nations in Europe and form a political block within the EU and make sure the French/German/Belgium axis can't ram things down everyone's throat.

Posted by Yank 2003-06-17 16:44:34|| 2003-06-17 16:44:34|| Front Page Top

#7 OK folks, no more jokes about Italian tanks. They are starting to get their act together. Jeeze Louise! France, though is another story. They are going down and I feel that it would be humorous if it was not so tragic.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-06-17 17:45:29|| 2003-06-17 17:45:29|| Front Page Top

#8 You know Frank, when someone uses the phrase "New Europe" (or for that matter "Old Europe") he's only betraying his own ignorance. By what kind of criterion, for god's sake, is a country like Poland any "newer" than a country like Belgium or Luxembourg?

"Berlusconi (or Blair) should get together the heads of the Liberty loving nations in Europe and form a political block within the EU and make sure the French/German/Belgium axis can't ram things down everyone's throat."

Liberty-loving nations as opposed to the non-liberty loving nations... Hah.

I'm afraid you'll find that tactical alliances based on disagreement with someone tend to not last very long. The disagreeing parties will only end up disagreeing among themselves before long.

Berlusconi played a very duplicitous role during the Iraq crisis, on the one hand going "America yay", on the other hand not doing anything to support it (Any Italian military in Iraq? Didn't think so), on the *third* hand saying that EU should enlarge to include Russia, Turkey and Israel, so that the military strength of these countries be used to created a pole opposed to America...

Berlusconi is what a stereotypical Induan would call "a man with a forked tongue". Don't trust him. Don't like him. No matter which side you are on. He only goes where he feels the wind is blowing, and he'd doublecross any cause in a second.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-17 17:47:09|| 2003-06-17 17:47:09|| Front Page Top

#9 So they are, as is Australia, along with the Czech Republic, Poland, in fact, most of New Europe...

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-17 15:47:27|| 2003-06-17 15:47:27|| Front Page Top

#10 heh heh and then sometimes one uses it to provoke a discussion, but you caught that, right, Aris?

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-17 18:37:58|| 2003-06-17 18:37:58|| Front Page Top

#11 *shrug* If *that's* the way you want to excuse it... Seems counterproductive though.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-17 18:48:37|| 2003-06-17 18:48:37|| Front Page Top

#12 no excuse, bait is all it was ;-)

However, I do have a fondness for the countries commonly referred to (Rumsfeld's got a way with words) as "New Europe", principally because many of these countries/peoples have suffered greatly under the Soviet boot, and their freedom really seems to be treasured. I would have said the same of France, Belgium, et al after WW2, because I know it was true then, but things change, and complacency has set in among many. For the reasons so many here have cited better than I, France and Belgium (and sometimes Germany in the recent past)are on my shit list. That doesn't mean I don't like most of the individuals I know from there (TGA? talking 'bout you here) - the people posting from those places are reaching out and usually making articulate points that cause me to rethink many times and on many issues. France however is using the EU and other Diplo-moves to actively counter measures I think America and others (Britain, Australia, et al) do for the betterment of the world, and in particular MY little part of the world. Now do you see where I'm coming from? That doesn't mean I don't throw a little red meat out to stir things up, though, cuz I do, all the time. Enjoy the discussions, I do - and other than Murat and STEVEY ROBINSON, it should remain non-personal attacks. Stay loose Aris, I don't agree with you on a LOT of things, but I always read/consider what you say Â©Â¿Â©
Frank

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-17 19:10:37|| 2003-06-17 19:10:37|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris you obviously never have been to Eastern Europe during the Communist days. Eastern Europe when it emerged from that disease was 50 years behind Western Europe. They have finally now caught up in appearance, and are almost there with other things. Hence Rumsfeld's phrase was an accurate description. But in order to not to offend you Aris, I agree he should have used the less provocative (and totally wimpish) "new and newer Europe".

Posted by RW 2003-06-17 19:17:00|| 2003-06-17 19:17:00|| Front Page Top

#14 - on the other hand not doing anything to support it (Any Italian military in Iraq? Didn't think so) -

The Italians opened their facilities to the Americans which is more than some other [Cough!] NATO members did. They provided the base of operation for the deployment of the 173rd Airborne Bde out of Caserma Ederle, Vicenza, Italy. That opened the Iraqi Northern Front.

Considering that outside the British, no European force is able to integrate into the American Air-Land Battle Doctrine or technology, such support is far more useful then a lot of troops sitting around in the rear unable to maneuver with the main force.

Posted by Don 2003-06-17 19:45:54|| 2003-06-17 19:45:54|| Front Page Top

#15 RW - Except that I get the impression that "Old Europe" is never ever used to refer to Italy, UK, Spain, Portugal, etc, etc. It's only used to refer to Germany/Belgium/France/Luxembourg.

So it all ends up as this: Most of Eastern Europe is "New Europe" because it agreed with Bush, and "Old Europe" are those countries that disagreed with him. Nothing to do with the fall of communism. Just a propagandistic term.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-17 20:07:57|| 2003-06-17 20:07:57|| Front Page Top

#16 New and Improved Europeâ¢?

Posted by Alaska Paul 2003-06-17 20:26:08|| 2003-06-17 20:26:08|| Front Page Top

#17 Just speculating (of course) but if East Germany hadn't had West Germany to fall into like a child coming home from a bad year away at college, I bet we could say that ALL of the former communist countries would agree with Bush. The Easties have been spared the tough decisions, society-wise, since the West Germans ate the big one absorbing all their pain. Still, they bitch.....

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-17 20:33:12|| 2003-06-17 20:33:12|| Front Page Top

#18 Nothing to do with the fall of communism. Just a propagandistic term.

Of course that phrase was meant to antagonize. But it was born out of the attitude of Germany/France/Belgium/Luxembourg that Chiraq so plainly aired for the world to see, and which continues to this day. Rumsfeld hit the nail on the head with "New Europe". There's no other way to describe Eastern Europe. Stop being so jealous Aris. You have new family members now, like it or not.

Posted by RW 2003-06-17 20:46:55|| 2003-06-17 20:46:55|| Front Page Top

#19 aris - would you have preferred rummy had said "axis of weasels"????

Look at what italy and france are disagreeing about now for heavens sake - berlusconi refused to meet with Arafat, who is undermining the pece process. France refuses to distance itself from the terrorists of Hamas. Even your own govt wont follow the French on that Aris.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2003-06-17 20:55:17|| 2003-06-17 20:55:17|| Front Page Top

#20 "The Italians opened their facilities to the Americans "

So did Germany, I think.

Frank G> "bet we could say that ALL of the former communist countries would agree with Bush"

Except Serbia & Montenegro. And Ukraine. And Belarus. And Russia. And Moldova. And FYRO Macedonia, I think. Not sure about Croatia's stance.

Liberalhawk> "would you have preferred rummy had said "axis of weasels"????"

I would have preferred if rummy had said "countries that disagreed with us."

"There's no other way to describe Eastern Europe. "

How about "Eastern Europe"? Or "formerly communistic Europe, not counting Russia, and certain other countries around there"?

"Stop being so jealous Aris. You have new family members now, like it or not."

Well, duh! I'm all in favour of the EU's expansion. New family members indeed.

I just don't accept the idea that Germany or Belgium are any older than Italy or Spain or the United Kingdom, by any criterion you may think of.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-17 21:10:01|| 2003-06-17 21:10:01|| Front Page Top

#21 How you can get so hung up on being called Old Europe is just beyond me frankly. That's not even an insult really. It's an accurate description. You're just twisting it into something it's not.

Posted by RW 2003-06-17 21:27:05|| 2003-06-17 21:27:05|| Front Page Top

#22 aris - Israelis are being murdered by terrorists. Berlusconi had the guts to boycott Arafat. Straw asked europe to boycott Hamas. France refuses to boycott Hamas. France attacks Berlusconi for boycotting arafat. And all you care about is Rummys choice of language, and the ages of european countries?

Feh!!!

Posted by Liberalhawk 2003-06-17 21:29:35|| 2003-06-17 21:29:35|| Front Page Top

#23 Christ in Heaven,Aris!
What is with your blind loyalty to terroist loving France?
Why are you pissed that Brlusconi throws Chiraq's words back in his face,but have no problem throwing Rummie's words back at him?
New Euorpe/Old Euorpe:
New Euorpe=ex-Sovit Empire
Old Euorpe=ex-Nato allies
I don't include Germany and Italy in my disgust and condemnation because they have proven to be good friends and allies to the U.S.
Where as France has proven they will screw the U.S. every chance they get.

FYI:Speaking as someone who's Grandmothers(both sides of my family)are Native Americans it is Indians and not pc at that.

Posted by raptor 2003-06-18 07:55:35|| 2003-06-18 07:55:35|| Front Page Top

10:38 True German Ally
08:23 raptor
07:55 raptor
07:36 raptor
07:16 raptor
02:26 JFM
02:16 JFM
00:48 Becky
23:35 tu3031
23:30 Don
23:20 Tresho
23:08 Raj
22:55 Hodadenon
22:21 tu3031
22:13 tu3031
21:46 True German Ally
21:44 kelly
21:39 RW
21:38 Liberalhawk
21:34 RW
21:30 tipper
21:29 Liberalhawk
21:27 RW
21:27 True German Ally