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2014-06-16 Afghanistan
Recent Special Forces deaths in AFG fuel A-10 debate.
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Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11132 views ]  Top

#1 "We listened very carefully to the U.S. Army," McCain said of the A-10 supporters. "They are the ones who need the close air support, they are ones who are in grave danger without it."

And yet they are retiring them.

B1B providing close air? Are they smoking crack out there????
Posted by 49 Pan 2014-06-16 00:22||   2014-06-16 00:22|| Front Page Top

#2 Look, I like the A-10. It is terrifying to our opponents and very effective once it arrives on site. But, the Air Force wienies are not being complete retards here. They are trying to expand the Close Air Support (CAS) footprint for the soldier at low cost.

The B1 carries 216 500 lb SDBs, which can glide out for more than 50 miles, and the B1 itself is a supersonic delivery platform. So, a single B1 on orbit can really deliver MUCH more ordnance on target MUCH faster than a flight of A-10's on orbit.

However, if anyone messes up on the input side describing where the bombs need to land, well then that will be a mess. We had that happen in 2001 and it looks like we had it happen again recently. In such a case the A-10 pilots, would have seen the mistake and then changed targets. A robot bomb from a B1 cannot do that.

I really have a hard time arguing that in order to keep HIGHLY TRAINED SPECIAL FORCES troops from putting wrong coordinates into their coms systems, we need to prefer a system that delivers less CAS support to the soldiers in theater.

Personally, I would be happy to keep both capabilities. That would add options to the local commander, which is always good, but may be too expensive given the economizing that is necessary because of domestic spending exemplified by the number of Obamaphones with monthly service fees that must be paid to US based wireless corporations, who make campaign contributions.

Perhaps we live in a country where our soldiers in the field need to make campaign contributions to keep open their options for close air support?

If this narrative has made you less and less comfortable as it has progressed, then write a note to your Senator asking to maintain and improve CAS options. Yes, Senators are politicians and mostly useless, but only mostly, not absolutely.
Posted by rammer 2014-06-16 01:28||   2014-06-16 01:28|| Front Page Top

#3 Nicely articulated, well thought remark.
The third leg of course is to remove some of the C from CAS by reducing the number of 'surgical' missions with minimum teams. That will require a reassessment of the COIN strategy and acceptance of more collateral damage. Not gonna happen.
Posted by Skidmark 2014-06-16 02:06||   2014-06-16 02:06|| Front Page Top

#4 Rammer makes some good points. Bottom line however, nothing beats 'eyes on target' and the capability to dynamically re-task, either from an airborne platform, troops in contact, or ground based UAV operator. Modern thermal imaging also permits the real-time sorting of friendlies from bad guys.

Lastly, 'squirters' happen. I don't care how dark it is or how fast a squirter runs, he's probably not going to be able to outmaneuver that 30mm.
Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 03:04||   2014-06-16 03:04|| Front Page Top

#5 "I really have a hard time arguing that in order to keep HIGHLY TRAINED SPECIAL FORCES troops from putting wrong coordinates into their coms systems"

The obvious answer is to invest MORE into CAS UI system and sort out the CAS plane later.
Posted by Bright Pebbles 2014-06-16 05:22||   2014-06-16 05:22|| Front Page Top

#6 Rammer make a fair argument, but I completely disagree. The reason B2 aircraft will continue to hit is because the aircraft have no visual on the target. The SOF fight close in, The B2 fire at a grid put in by some kid getting his ass shot off. The A10 flies over the target, the enemy know all hell is about to break loose and hunker down effectively stopping the fight. They see the targets and the friendlies. Then they come back for the kill, a fairly precision event. There is no good side to this. The only bombs the B2 should be dropping are the lazer guided bombs directed by the guy on the ground. Have we learned nothing from Viet-Nam???
Posted by 49 Pan 2014-06-16 10:33||   2014-06-16 10:33|| Front Page Top

#7 Ditto Pan. 'Eyes on target.'
Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 10:36||   2014-06-16 10:36|| Front Page Top

#8 Once and for all, GIVE THE @%$#%#@%^ A-10s TO THE ARMY, and quit creating such a #^$%%^%^ idiotic blunder. The Army wants them, the Army needs them, and the Army can deal with them. Let them have them. All this intra-service bickering does is give the enemy hope. Time for someone with brass ones to step up and put an end to the childish temper tantrums.
Posted by Old Patriot 2014-06-16 17:03||   2014-06-16 17:03|| Front Page Top

#9 Amen and Amen OP. If a SPAD showed up overhead with guns blazin whilst soldiers or Marines were in contact, it would represent a huge boost in morale. Multiply the morale boost by about 10k for a Warthog.
Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 17:10||   2014-06-16 17:10|| Front Page Top

#10 When the Air Force first tried to give them away it was just prior to the first gulf war. I was on the Army pilots list to be trained. Then the war hit and they were the darling of the war and the air farce kept them....
Posted by 49 Pan 2014-06-16 18:36||   2014-06-16 18:36|| Front Page Top

#11 I've seen enough live UAV Full Motion Video (FMV) feeds in TOC's and listened to enough radio traffic to know that the A-10 and it's payload are the soldier and Marines very, very close friends.
Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 18:44||   2014-06-16 18:44|| Front Page Top

#12 Hey, the B1 can fly over the target too, if you want that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3esYp2oUXPw

But my point is ONE B1 can be overflying or bombing the shit out of anything in Afghanistan in under 30 minutes. A-10s from Baghram or Kandahar will take more than an hour on average, and we will need multiple ready planes, pilots, and crews at each airfield to even do that.

It would be better operationally to have both, but if we ,can only have one and you run the numbers, then it is much cheaper to fly the Bone. And it is cheaper whether you pay for it with Air Force or Army dollars.

And we need that money to forgive the student loans that little Timmy, who never served a minute, took out to pay for his MFA, because unlike our soldiers in the field, he is suffering.
Posted by rammer 2014-06-16 18:49||   2014-06-16 18:49|| Front Page Top

#13 That last video was not even a super-sonic pass. This one is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liNLIIKWG0k
Posted by rammer 2014-06-16 18:56||   2014-06-16 18:56|| Front Page Top

#14 And this is why the A-10 is worth the extra money and is so beloved.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llEWrL9ghyg

When they arrive.
Posted by rammer 2014-06-16 19:02||   2014-06-16 19:02|| Front Page Top

#15 Roger Rammer, high five! No such fok'n thing as too much air cover. Optimally, all ground operations should include both dedicated Medivac on-call, attack helo's and/or fast movers in direct support. Can't always happen... but the optimal is indisputable. See the now very dated 'AirLand Battle Doctrine' for more.
Posted by Besoeker 2014-06-16 19:03||   2014-06-16 19:03|| Front Page Top

#16 use the fast movers to deliver whatever passes for carpet bombing nowadays and give the low and slow mission to the A-10s.
using air force logic we can retire all the helos and use the F-35s to snatch downed aircrew.
Posted by USN, Ret. 2014-06-16 20:12||   2014-06-16 20:12|| Front Page Top

#17 carpet bombing
Humm, close to arcliteing. Hell with em. Drop the F-150 package on their asses.

glug, glug, gluf
Posted by Shipman 2014-06-16 20:22||   2014-06-16 20:22|| Front Page Top

#18 There is a reason they called it a strategic bomber. They don't use the B1 for air to air. They have proven over and over fighters make bad bombers and close air aircraft. The air force has been trying to get out of the close air business for years. I'm just tired of the politics of all of this. It gets down to who the f$%k really cares about the troops, lets spin each aircraft as close air support so we can get funded. Then when the air to air mods and deep strike mods are done, well sorry troops! I remember the F16 was sold to congress as a close air support aircraft. Then they put the fighter crap on it and could not support the troops. The air forces official answer was, Apache, see you don't need it. When you need to take out a village or camp, the B@ is a great platform. But when your fighting across some creek bed, the A10 is the correct answer...
Posted by 49 Pan 2014-06-16 20:22||   2014-06-16 20:22|| Front Page Top

#19 I thought the F-16 was also sold as a light-weight air defense fighter. I learn more and more.
Posted by Shipman 2014-06-16 20:31||   2014-06-16 20:31|| Front Page Top

#20 I'm sure our collective "peace flights" with Iran will necessitate F-16 replenishment parts to the
Iranians. ValJar is all over it
Posted by Frank G 2014-06-16 21:29||   2014-06-16 21:29|| Front Page Top

#21 There's a reason why the Marines use specifically-trained Forward Ar Controllers (FACs)....
Posted by Pappy 2014-06-16 21:30||   2014-06-16 21:30|| Front Page Top

#22 We had them with us too. We always joked it was insurance the AF would show up...
Posted by 49 Pan 2014-06-16 22:26||   2014-06-16 22:26|| Front Page Top

#23 And that is exactly why Obummer should have left 20k troops in Iraq, out in the Desert somewhere.

To be clear, that when the shit went down, we would be there.
Posted by rammer 2014-06-16 22:45||   2014-06-16 22:45|| Front Page Top

22:56 JosephMendiola
22:45 rammer
22:36 JosephMendiola
22:33 JosephMendiola
22:31 49 Pan
22:30 JosephMendiola
22:27 JosephMendiola
22:26 49 Pan
22:26 trailing wife
22:24 trailing wife
22:24 JosephMendiola
22:08 JosephMendiola
22:03 JosephMendiola
21:51 Frank G
21:47 Thing From Snowy Mountain
21:41 Pappy
21:30 Pappy
21:30 Besoeker
21:29 Frank G
21:19 Pappy
21:16 Frank G
21:14 Frank G
21:06 Devilstoenail
20:47 Shipman









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