Article

2004-06-14 Europe

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Posted by True German Ally 2004-06-14 12:52:56 PM|| || Front Page|| [11125 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 *blinks*
you met rumsfield ?
cool.

Posted by dcreeper 2004-06-14 1:20:21 PM|| 2004-06-14 1:20:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 NATO has to change or die on the vine. If the EU cannot committ itself to global defense (remember this treaty is supposed to go both ways) partnered with the US it is dead.

Economics should not guide our defense posture. Regardless of the cost the battles are not in Europe at this time.

As for economic impact where bases are located it is no different than what communities went through here in the states. And the overall impact on German GDP is very minimal.

I just hope the German's realize that we are friends and this in no way some kind of punishment. And if it is it is pathetic given GDP impact of our forces.

Posted by Dan 2004-06-14 1:35:22 PM|| 2004-06-14 1:35:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 The large American military presence in Germany has long symbolized the understanding at the heart of NATO â Washingtonâs commitment to remain permanently engaged in Europeâs security and to integrate its military operations with those of its major European allies

But it now symbolizes to Americans that Europe expects American taxpayers to foot their defense bills so they don't have to.

I hope that the impact to the communities that have supported us is minimal. But I've lived in communities here at home that have gone through base closings and so.... as a taxpayer wanting to see my money well spent.... I see no reason that Germans, spending my money, shouldn't have to as well.

Posted by B 2004-06-14 2:19:44 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:19:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Dan and B, I'm afraid you both miss the central point here. You are NOT footing the German defense bill here. Germany does not save any defense money because you are here as Germany is in no danger of being attacked by anyone.
War of Terror you say? The thing is, if Germany (and Europe) wanted, they could just be free riders because the U.S. will lead that war... with them or without them. I guess I don't have to point out what is cheaper. The global nature of (Islamist) terrorism means that no threat is specifically directed against Europe OR the U.S. But as Dan said, the battles won't be in Europe. We all know where they are and probably will be in the next ten years.
This is not about financing a few German communities (never was), this is about keeping Europe involved in global matters. If you leave Europe and disassociate yourself from European affairs and joint military endeavours, it will cost you more than keeping 50000 troops (for your own benefit) in Germany.
Don't declare NATO dead before you found something better. Let's work together to redefine NATO. United we stand.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-06-14 2:51:53 PM|| 2004-06-14 2:51:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Let's work together to redefine NATO. United we stand.

sniff, sniff, TGA...if everyone in Europe (or even Germany) was like you, the world would be a great place.

I don't know how I feel about the bases in Germany, but I do know that you have reminded me that when you drop all the rhetoric, good people from all countries have similar goals.

Posted by B 2004-06-14 3:04:38 PM|| 2004-06-14 3:04:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Why U.S. troops should stay in Germany

Just in case we need to (in the immortal words of Hollis P. Wood in "1941") "kick the livin' shit outta" them again...

Posted by mojo 2004-06-14 3:06:47 PM|| 2004-06-14 3:06:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Don't declare NATO dead before you found something better. Let's work together to redefine NATO. United we stand.

Totally agree with those sentiments TGA.

mojo - that was uncalled for.

Posted by Tony (UK) 2004-06-14 3:21:05 PM|| 2004-06-14 3:21:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 TGA-What this discussion should reveal is that, while there is growing anti-Americanism in Europe, its reciprocal is growing resentment of Europeans in the US. I hope we can make NATO sound again, but there is significant resentment here for the European hostility towards Americans, and we are beginning to see signs of that resentment seep into action on this side. Of course we want a restored, updated NATO, but not at any price.

Posted by jules 187 2004-06-14 3:42:11 PM|| 2004-06-14 3:42:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 The combat divisions in Europe are coming home for the simple reason they aren't needed to help protect Western Europe from invasion.If they are to be used in future,it will be as expeditionary forces dispatched from home bases,and it is cheaper to base them w/their families in the US.The infrastructure will be kept for forseeable future-to show US still engaged w/Europe,already built so don't have to spend scarce dollars to build new,and as TGA points out Germany allows US to use bases pretty much unrestricted.Tactical aviation(F-16s,F-15s,etc.)would be moved for couple of reasons.If based in Turkey then Iran,Syria,Palestine and Iraq would be w/in range.If moved to SE Europe,I suspect it would be more a matter of local governments not minding US a/c practicing low-level flight,with a touch of rewarding new friends thrown in,but mostly no noise abatement restrictions on training flights.

Posted by Stephen 2004-06-14 5:08:21 PM|| 2004-06-14 5:08:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Tony - probably due to unresolved feelings - I was stationed in Germany at the height of the cold war. Some of the W. Germans were ok, most even, but lots were real "aryan assholes" to Americans, and it's only gotten worse.

And no, I never liked France. Italy, now...

Posted by mojo 2004-06-14 5:31:30 PM|| 2004-06-14 5:31:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 TGA - not saying that Germany/EU is footing the bill. What I am saying is that Americans want a true mutual self-defense pact. Not one where the Europeans can pick and choose when to uphold and when not to uphold NATO agreements. We were attacked but the Europeans chose not to fullfill thier part of our mutual defense pact. Which has alot to do with not being militarily able too, this needs to change on the Euorpean side if NATO is too survive.

Jules post is put spot on, there is growing resentment of Europe in this country. I do hope NATO can be resucued. But as you put it the US will still lead in a war - with or without Europe. This, I believe, is part of the problem we face. The Europeans will benifit regardless. This needs to change since we cannot do it alone. But if forced to we will sure give it a go, the alternative is surrender.

TGA I respect your opinions and am in full agreement with what you say. I just wish your fellow EU citizens felt the same.

Posted by Dan 2004-06-14 6:19:49 PM|| 2004-06-14 6:19:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Stephen always has the killer insight on this particular flavor of stuff.

Posted by Shipman 2004-06-14 7:11:29 PM|| 2004-06-14 7:11:29 PM|| Front Page Top

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23:56 joe
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