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2003-06-11 Europe

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Posted by tu3031 2003-06-11 09:31 am|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Aris & Murat sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.
What ever happened to Murat?

Posted by RW 6/11/2003 3:22:19 PM|| 6/11/2003 3:22:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 "And you want to be friends with these asswipes Aris."

Why should Aris be a friend of the Lourdes police? No, what you meant were the French in general, not the overreacting Lourdes police. And that is... at least xenophobic. So Aris said "I don't share your racism."

LOL liberalhawk, I agree. One thing is sure: Aris is not Murat. Before a Turk poses as a Greek George Bush will say sorry to Saddam. :)

Posted by True German Ally 6/11/2003 5:56:15 PM|| 6/11/2003 5:56:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 So the brave French gas a bunch of cripples instead going after the hotel owners for"lax attitude".
And you want to be friends with these asswipes Aris.

Posted by raptor 2003-06-11 10:50:10|| 2003-06-11 10:50:10|| Front Page Top

#4 You are obsessed with me, ain't ya?

And frankly, forgive me if I somehow won't completely trust The Sun to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Or if I don't share your racism. Who ever said of wanting to be friends with these specific guys who did this?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-11 11:19:44|| 2003-06-11 11:19:44|| Front Page Top

#5 The French had better fix this p.r. nightmare in the U.K. Quick, somebody run some Woody Allen commercials on the telly over there!

Posted by ColoradoConservative 2003-06-11 11:23:11|| 2003-06-11 11:23:11|| Front Page Top

#6 Aris

It's not racism unless you've already bought into the paradigm that the French and the Belgian Empire are trying to turn themselves into the "master race" for the "final showdown" against "perfidious Albion."

Posted by Brian 2003-06-11 11:46:14|| 2003-06-11 11:46:14|| Front Page Top

#7 Interesting there's NO mention of this in Le Monde or Le Figaro! But I'm sure the anti-French xenophobes never bothered to learn another language to look at these sources, let alone read another viewpoint in a foreign language! Just allow Mr Murdoch to spoon-feed you your opinions.

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-06-11 12:17:35|| 2003-06-11 12:17:35|| Front Page Top

#8 Don't feed the trolls

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-11 12:27:54|| 2003-06-11 12:27:54|| Front Page Top

#9 It's hard though, Frank G. It's almost like we've got Murat back! You remember, the Turkish one? Only this one's not quite as smart... ;)

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-11 12:29:54|| 2003-06-11 12:29:54|| Front Page Top

#10 Yoo stoopid peepole! Yoo are such scummy dogs zat yoo donet eeven no French! I am zo much more enlightened zan yoo filthy dogs! If yoo read LeMonde, yoo wood be enlightened, like myself, and not xenophobic. I wouldn't trade a leaking bag of monkey shit for a whole legion of Euro-trash leftists pukes. At least I know the monkey shit could be of some use when in a fight.

Posted by Mike N. 2003-06-11 12:53:40|| 2003-06-11 12:53:40|| Front Page Top

#11 Brian> Ethnoracism then. Same difference.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-11 13:00:50|| 2003-06-11 13:00:50|| Front Page Top

#12 Mommy, Mommy...the big bad Geek...er...Greek called me a racist. My self-esteem is crumbling. Any minute now I will decide that the whole world should be run by a bunch of faceless, unaccountable socialists just so the nasty man will stop calling me bad names.

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-06-11 14:02:49|| 2003-06-11 14:02:49|| Front Page Top

#13 "The French are an annoying race."
-- Winston Churchill on Charles DeGaulle

Posted by mojo 2003-06-11 15:16:45|| 2003-06-11 15:16:45|| Front Page Top

#14 Aris & Murat sitting in a tree,
k-i-s-s-i-n-g.
What ever happened to Murat?

Posted by RW 2003-06-11 15:22:19|| 2003-06-11 15:22:19|| Front Page Top

#15 Quelle coincidence Brian, last time I read the phrase perfidious Albion, it was in the French press with reference to all the Islamic ~~terrorist training centers~~ Centers in England harboring ~~terrorists~~ imams the French wanted extradited. Britain has it's own fifth column--the Islamofascists are just as firmly planted in London as in Paris, look at Richard Reid--where'd he learn that crazy BS? I happen to agree with a lot of opinions on this site--but I think the French-bashing has gotten ridiculous!

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-06-11 16:28:57|| 2003-06-11 16:28:57|| Front Page Top

#16 You should care more about whether you are a racist or not, than whether I called you one.

Hodadenon? Is that a different nick for the same person? Just a couple days, you were thanking me, raptor, about how I took the time to answer (extensively) through email a question you asked me here. Now you are trying to use my nationality as if it were an insult. It's not as if I suddenly became Geek/Greek since last you talked to me, you know.

So, is this hypocricy in action or simple schizophrenia?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-11 16:59:49|| 2003-06-11 16:59:49|| Front Page Top

#17 I think there is no reason for personal attacks on Aris. He is not a troll at all (unless you qualify all dissenting voices as such, in that case I may qualify from time to time as well). He is an enthusiastic Greek European and has made intelligent postings here. You might not agree with them but they were worth reading. Please don't scare intelligent posters away.

I don't know whether this story is true, half true or not true. All I know is that The Sun isn't normally quoted here as a source you'd absolutely trust. It's a newspaper that has an Anti-French campaign going for months with rather un-appetising criterias of journalist honor. Up to now this story has not been picked up by anyone so a bit of caution is in order. You know how it is with bar brawls, the witnesses tend to differ a lot in the stories they give.
So why that personal attack on Aris? Did he sympathize with Lourdes police or what? He hadn't even commented yet. And did the word "asswipes" apply to all French? In that case it is indeed a very xenophobic remark that should not be encouraged here.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-11 17:20:55|| 2003-06-11 17:20:55|| Front Page Top

#18 no, no im the only troll here - you never voted for Clinton, TGA :)

OTOH i'm a wolfie fan, and you're not.

I still think it would have been interesting to have Aris and Murat here at the same time.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-06-11 17:39:16|| 2003-06-11 17:39:16|| Front Page Top

#19 The personal attack on Aris (note the lack of scare quotes, I freely admit that is what it was)was caused by his implication that Raptor was a racist for calling the perpetrators of the incident asswipes.

I find it both offensive and amusing that the Left can so freely label anyone who disagrees with or is annoyed by one of their victims-of-the-month with terms like racist, homophobe or misogynist and then act innocent and/or put upon when someone snaps the towel back at them.

Which he(Aris) does by implying I am racist for my comment. The "Geek/Greek" was meant entirely for you, Aris, not for all people from your beautiful country and, TGA, I have been following Aris' comments for days now, he is an enthusiastic European SOCIALIST. The only way socialism would EVER work in a human society would be to place that society in the grip of an all-encompassing, all-controlling state with no accountability to the drones...like the EU will be. You can have it for Europe if you wish, but try to bring it here, comrade (oh, PLEASE try!).

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-06-11 17:44:51|| 2003-06-11 17:44:51|| Front Page Top

#20 "And you want to be friends with these asswipes Aris."

Why should Aris be a friend of the Lourdes police? No, what you meant were the French in general, not the overreacting Lourdes police. And that is... at least xenophobic. So Aris said "I don't share your racism."

LOL liberalhawk, I agree. One thing is sure: Aris is not Murat. Before a Turk poses as a Greek George Bush will say sorry to Saddam. :)

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-11 17:56:15|| 2003-06-11 17:56:15|| Front Page Top

#21 "society in the grip of an all-encompassing, all-controlling state with no accountability to the drones...like the EU will be"

Hodadenon, you should put more trust in the democratic convictions of the Europeans. And I don't share your opinion about socialism.

SOCIALISM NEVER WORKS

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-11 17:59:58|| 2003-06-11 17:59:58|| Front Page Top

#22 TGA: I fully agree that Aris is not a troll. And no one should insult him (though I do enjoy giving him a hard time). But he does express opinions that are well, alien, to American culture. He is a Second International socialist. Most folks here would probably find themselves in near total agreement with Hayek's Road to Serfdom, regarding socialism. From your comments, I suspect that you are not an Austrian School capitalist either, but you have enough understanding of Americans and American culture to present your ideas in a way guaranteed not to piss everyone here off. I've learned a lot from you. I wish I could learn more from Aris. He's intelligent and knows his stuff. He just needs to realize who he's selling to (not surprising at all for a socialist, when you come to think of it).

Posted by 11A5S 2003-06-11 18:02:36|| 2003-06-11 18:02:36|| Front Page Top

#23 TGA,

"you should put more trust in the democratic convictions of the Europeans"

I would, my friend, but I keep seeing the camel trying to get that nose in the tent. The way the EU's rules seem to be written just appear to me to leave too many holes for a rapid erosion of the rights of the individual.

I will accept your correction on the question of socialism, I was leaving a little academic "wiggle-room" ;-)

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-06-11 18:10:25|| 2003-06-11 18:10:25|| Front Page Top

#24 Aris called me and RW "idiots" the other day. Right or not (I can't vouch for RW), that was uncalled for. So he gets absolutely no sympathy from this delicate soul.

It's not fair to call anyone here a racist for simply criticising the French. I think we assume anyone who does so is directing bile towards the majority of French who (all the opinion polls seem to prove) are irrationally and inexcusably anti-American/Anglo, and support the actions of their uniquely cynical and self-important government. It's a generalisation, nothing more sinister.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-11 18:11:51|| 2003-06-11 18:11:51|| Front Page Top

#25 11A5S, sometimes you have to chose the lesser of two evils. And the EU is the lesser one. It has brought different nations together. Without the EU probably a lot of nations would be ganging up against Germany, out of fear of our political and economical strength. I'm willing to live with the kind of control the EU has on us. I've been on the wrong end of "Deutschland Ã¼ber alles", so I don't mind too much.

I do make a distinction between socialism and "social market economy" that made Germany prosper. These days we have come to rely too much on the state and it's time to push for reforms which is not easy. I suppose America can learn from us (I do believe our health care system is superior to the American one although reforms are needed here as well) and I do believe we need more free enterprises and less bureaucracy (in that case we can learn from America).

Hodadenon, the European Constitution Draft is anything but final yet, there is a lot to do and I believe that people will make sure in the long run that the rights of the individual will be respected.

Bulldog, of course nobody should call anyone "idiot" here. I leave it up to you what you think about calling all French "asswipes" then.
The Sun is a xenophobic Yellow Press paper that will not shun from showing Germans as Nazis when a soccer match is due (I'm glad you finally lost your German trauma in Munich!).
Re French: I wonder, are the Anglo/Americans as francophobic as the French Anglophobic? The real gross words are not to be read in the French press. I guess it's time to cool down a bit. The war is over.
And don't call me "sounding like Chirac" again. Because that is the worst insult, my friend :-)
I know you didn't mean it though...

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-11 18:46:31|| 2003-06-11 18:46:31|| Front Page Top

#26 Actually my troll comment was aimed at the first "Not Mike Moore", not Aris

Posted by Frank G 2003-06-11 18:57:31|| 2003-06-11 18:57:31|| Front Page Top

#27 First and formost Aris I said nothing about your nationality that Geek/Greek comment was someone else.
Our e-mail discusion was a totally unrelated subject(dealing with religion).

My attitude toward the French has nothing to do with racisiam.I have been upset with the French since they forced our F-111 bombers to fly around French airspace when the struck Mohamar Quaidaffi,you know the guy who ordered the destruction of Pan-Am 103 right over the town of Lockerbie,Scotland.The French have done nothing to change my opinion of them since and in fact have continued to grow into bigger assholes.
All that being said you can play that racisiam card somewhere else.
If being pissed at French perfidity makes a"Ethnoracist"maybe I am.But I look at the history of the last 30 years and I see mostly lies,deception and back stabbing comming out of France,also see Bulldog's post.

I do agree with TGA that Aris has some interesting points,don't agree with them,but interseting nontheless.

Posted by raptor 2003-06-11 18:57:34|| 2003-06-11 18:57:34|| Front Page Top

#28 "The personal attack on Aris (note the lack of scare quotes, I freely admit that is what it was)was caused by his implication that Raptor was a racist for calling the perpetrators of the incident asswipes."

Bullshit. He/you (are you the same person or not?) called all Frenchmen "asswipes", and asked me why I should want to be friends with such "asswipes".

It was a racist comment, like it or not. Want to nitpick like Brian did and call it ethnoracist instead? Be my guest, but it boils down to the same thing.

"I find it both offensive and amusing"

Yes, so do I. I find it both offensive and amusing when people make racist comments about entire nations and then pretend that *no* it was the specific perpetrators that they were targetting with their insults, as if people can't just scroll up and see the original comments by themselves.

"and, TGA, I have been following Aris' comments for days now, he is an enthusiastic European SOCIALIST."

I am? I suppose that for a given value of "socialism" anyone short of a libertarian can be called a socialist - in which case I suppose I have to confess to socialism, since indeed I am not a libertarian.

"It's a generalisation, nothing more sinister."

Generalisations aren't sinister? News to me.

And I may be misremembering my mood the moment I wrote it but I think that the "Idiots" exclamation had been directed at the EU-hating crowd in general, not to you specifically.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-11 19:01:06|| 2003-06-11 19:01:06|| Front Page Top

#29 My last comment was written before I saw raptor's last comment.

And I've seen repeated lies/deception/hypocricy coming from the English (aka "UK government") and the Americans (aka "American government") as well.

That doesn't mean I'd call them "asswipes" and demand to know why someone would want to be "friends" with them.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2003-06-11 19:08:25|| 2003-06-11 19:08:25|| Front Page Top

#30 Hypocritical bullshit, Aris You have repeatedly made derogatory remarks about England and the English. You were doing less than generalising yourself? You accused England of doing "nothing but spout xenophobic and racist nationalisms against the EU", compared with the Scots and the Welsh. In your book, that's certainly racist.

Englishmen have been killed in recent years in your country because of their nationality; when the last time a Greek was killed on the streets on England for being Greek?

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-11 19:25:32|| 2003-06-11 19:25:32|| Front Page Top

#31 TGA, you're right about the Sun - it oversteps the mark a good deal (in fact, whenever it can), and the attitude of the tabloids towards Germany expecially, is deeply embarrassing. It doen't take a psychologist to identify the "German trauma", as you put it. But I don't think it has gone for good, sadly. However, Frog-bashing is going to be the favourite sport for some time to come, I think.

Re. the French, yes, there is a great degree of reciprocal Francophobia in the Anglosphere. But, the crucial difference is, from us it's warranted. I am not a dyed-in-the-wool Francophobe, but their actions of late have been abominable for so many reasons. And they, ultimately will pay the price. Their culturally ingrained Anglophobia has led them to make choices that let us and themselves down. What happened in Iraq harmed no legitimate interests of France: they were wrong, and need to acknowledge that fact.

I won't compare you to Chirac again, that clearly overstepped the mark. How about Schroeder, occasionally?!

Posted by Bulldog 2003-06-11 19:45:01|| 2003-06-11 19:45:01|| Front Page Top

#32 "He/you (are you the same person or not?")

Aris I freely admit to calling the French asswipes,and meant every word.Refer to my comment:"I have been upset with the French since they forced our F-111 bombers to fly around French airspace when the struck Mohamar Quaidaffi,you know the guy who ordered the destruction of Pan-Am 103 right over the town of Lockerbie,Scotland."
If you notice "Good ol'Boy"Mohmar kept his head down since.

I would not hide behind an alias if I have something to say I will be straight up-front with it.I use Raptor cause I like the name,if you notice I use my real name in my e-mail address.

By the way,Fred I tried to post an article from military.com but it is not here.What did i do wrong?

Posted by raptor 2003-06-11 20:33:24|| 2003-06-11 20:33:24|| Front Page Top

#33 Bulldog... ummmm no Schroeder either :-)

OK, I could say now that some of my best friends are French. But that would sound like an Antisemite claiming that some of his best friends... you know the drill.

Apart from that it's simply not true. But I'm not a Francophobe either. Yet any German politician with 2 intact brain cells should know that when it comes to relying on a friend, the choice between the USA and France is.... no choice.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-06-11 21:07:18|| 2003-06-11 21:07:18|| Front Page Top

#34 Not Mike Moore

Are you trying to paraphrase Qadaffi (sp.) when he said after 9/11 that the best blow against al-Qaeda would be a bombing attack against London? Please tell me you haven't fallen that deep into the delusional left wing.

Posted by Brian 2003-06-11 21:09:25|| 2003-06-11 21:09:25|| Front Page Top

#35 As for Aris, his secret agenda rotates around the Marbles held by the UK.

Posted by Brian 2003-06-11 21:11:52|| 2003-06-11 21:11:52|| Front Page Top

#36 Aris: please define for me what you think a "race" is? A century and a half ago people considered Irish, Italians, etc. to be races, but modern anthropology only recognizes Caucasians, blacks, asians, etc as races now. Ethnic groups aren't considered races any more. The French aren't a race. Neither are the Greeks. Nor the British. Calling the French "asswipes" or whatever can be an ETHNIC insult, but certainly not a racial insult.

Is this a European thing to still consider ethnic groups races? Because it surely isn't something we recognize in North America.

Posted by R. McLeod 2003-06-11 22:09:21|| 2003-06-11 22:09:21|| Front Page Top

#37 Definition of racism: a belief in the inborn superiority of one race, esp. one's own, over another race of humanity.

How is calling the French "asswipes" racist? It doesn't fit the definition. Apples and oranges folks.

Posted by RW 2003-06-11 22:09:27|| 2003-06-11 22:09:27|| Front Page Top

#38 Nice little donnybrook. I only wish Mike Moore would have come back. I know it costs Fred more, but who wants to listen to everybody say the same thing? RW's right. How can calling someone a sphincter be costrued as racist? That's just liberal newspeak used to silence dissent.

Posted by Scott 2003-06-11 22:33:51|| 2003-06-11 22:33:51|| Front Page Top

09:26 liberalhawk
22:33 Scott
22:15 tu3031
22:12 RW
22:09 RW
22:09 R. McLeod
22:01 tu3031
22:00 Scott
21:52 Scott
21:50 Michael
21:38 Watcher
21:13 Frank G
21:11 Brian
21:09 Brian
21:07 Matt
21:07 True German Ally
20:42 11A5S
20:33 raptor
19:55 11A5S
19:50 Frank G
19:45 Bulldog
19:35 raptor
19:25 Bulldog
19:22 someone