Article

2004-05-28 Europe

Turkish president vetoes controversial education reform

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Posted by Fred 2004-05-28 1:56:03 PM|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Train leaving for the 7th Century! All Aboarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrd!!!

We'll see if Turkey is railroaded back to the past or if she wants to be a part of the modern world. You cannot have it both ways.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-05-28 4:05:30 PM|| 2004-05-28 4:05:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 The Turkish military is truly the guardian of the secular republic. Erdogan has been steadily chipping away at the military since he came to power. Right now the Army is the only thing keeping the black turbans at bay. This tension between the Islamists and the Army was the underlying cause of Turkey's otherwise incomprehensible confusion during the invasion of Iraq.

Posted by RWV 2004-05-28 7:41:44 PM|| 2004-05-28 7:41:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Right now the Army is the only thing keeping the black turbans at bay.

If you didn't notice, this veto here was the lawful decision of an elected politician, NOT an intervention by the army.

Erdogan has been steadily chipping away at the military since he came to power.

That's because in democracies the military obeys the civilian authority -- and since Erdogan came to power Turkey has gotten more democratic and free by every passing year. See Freedomhouse's ratings if you don't believe me.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-28 9:34:08 PM|| 2004-05-28 9:34:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Katsaris, you told us you weren't going to post here anymore.
Lying again?

And, as usual, taking the contrarian position and the pro-Islamist one.
Erdogan's only been PM for 2 years during some very extraordinary times--how can you authoritatively say Turkey's "gotten more free" under his leadership so glibly?
I, that's right--you're Katsaris, Mr. Know-it-all.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-28 9:58:57 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-28 9:58:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 You are right, I shouldn't have posted. Bad of me. But it's a difficult choice when the immorality of staying silent in the face of ignorance is contrasted to the immorality of breaking one's word.

But as to your question, yeah, that's right: it's because I'm a know-it-all.

Also this: http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2003/countryratings/turkey.htm

And this: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2004-05-27&ID=34019

And this: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2004-05-27&ID=34020

And this: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=5/24/2004&ID=33779

And this: http://www.rantburg.com/poparticle.asp?HC=Main&D=2004-05-14&ID=33020

And the rankings of press freedom as again done by FreedomHouse (58 in the 2002 press freedom edition, 55 in the 2003 press freedom edition, 52 in the 2004 Press freedom edition, the lower the better - aka "slowly but steadily improving")

And also the fact that for the first time in 30 years Turkey allowed the Turkish Cypriots to decide by themselves whether they wanted to unite with the Greek Cypriots or not.

Four of the above came tidbits I learned from Rantburg just the last few days -- which shows why I still find Rantburg an extremely useful source of information, regardless of the fact that some of the people here don't seem capable of actually reading and comprehending the very info Rantburg is so useful in providing.

Bye again.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-28 10:33:17 PM|| 2004-05-28 10:33:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 With all due respect to Mr. Katsaris, the veto was by an elected politician, but it is not necessarily correct to say the Turkish military had nothing to do with it. One merely needs to look at Turkish history and extrapolate. A leopard does not change its spots overnight.

Posted by Pappy 2004-05-28 10:45:41 PM|| 2004-05-28 10:45:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Mr. Katsaris, your selection of articles support your point that there is continuing improvement in Turkish society. However, do you believe this progress would continue if Turkey were to become an Islamic republic?

Rightly or wrongly, I believe the reason Turkey is one of the most advanced countries in your part of the world is that Kemal Attaturk forced the separation of mosque and state. A secular society values education and benefits from the contribution of all its citizens. Islamic countries not so blessed seem hostile to the knowledge and ideas of the West (weapons technology excepted). From following the summaries of the Turkish press available in the West, it appeared that Erdogan and his party lean towards granting ever greater influence to religious leaders and that the Army is the only thing preventing it.

Posted by RWV 2004-05-28 10:54:07 PM|| 2004-05-28 10:54:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 However, do you believe this progress would continue if Turkey were to become an Islamic republic?

Obviously not.

But whether it's because of the EU, or because of Erdogan, or because of both, I've seen no signs that Turkey is moving towards *that* direction and every sign that Turkey is moving towards the direction of secular democracy instead -- as opposed to the secular dictatorships of the generals.

As for Erdogan in interviews he has called his "Islamist party" the equivalent of the European "Christian-democratic" parties. Aka they have a connection to the more religious voters and acknowledge christian tradition, but are also far from fundie members of the Spanish Inquisition intending to overthrow democracy and crown the Pope's representatives instead.

So far, I've seen no reason to disbelieve that, when the articles I referenced show religious (and ethnic) tolerance increasing in Turkey, not decreasing.

If people have opposing articles, let me know.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-28 11:15:23 PM|| 2004-05-28 11:15:23 PM|| Front Page Top

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