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2004-05-23 Israel-Palestine
Two Senior Hamas Operatives killed when their car blew up
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Posted by mhw 2004-05-23 10:05:08 AM|| || Front Page|| [6 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 [work accident?, rigged by an undercover op?, microwave projection device that Israel supposedly has???].

Occam's razor still applies, even with such irrational mentalities as terrorists. One can never rule out the profound and mind-numbingly glorious potentialities of sheer stupidity.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 10:35:45 AM||   2004-05-23 10:35:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Yeah.
I agree.
The "profound and mind-numbingly glorious potentialities of sheer stupidity" that led the "Military officials" to make this statement thinking anyone might believe thim.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 10:47:28 AM||   2004-05-23 10:47:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "troll to sinktrap"
eat me Gentle. These wastes of carbon and oxygen have been sent to the hell they deserve - your culture of death soon to follow - I'd have a sno-cone now, you won't get them there
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 10:50:03 AM||   2004-05-23 10:50:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 No they have not.
By god's will they are now alive and in paradise.
Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 10:54:22 AM||   2004-05-23 10:54:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 You culturally insensitive clods! Don't you know it is traditional for Palestinians to carry large quantities of explosives with them wherever they go.
Posted by M Moore 2004-05-23 10:56:42 AM||   2004-05-23 10:56:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 "By god's will they are now alive and in paradise. Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them."
BWAhahahahahahaha!
You actually believe this crap?
When are you gonna strap on a suicide belt and commit martyrdom, Gentle honey?
The only splendor that Allah (Mohammed's alter ego) can grant is some grill space on the personal barbecue that Satan's given him in Hell!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 11:02:48 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 11:02:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Allan can grant anything - he has nothing but a dark eternity in hell to offer. You deserve it
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 11:03:29 AM||   2004-05-23 11:03:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 By god's will they are now alive and in paradise.
Happy with the splendors Allah has granted them.

Thank you for clearly identifying yourself as a source of profound evil. One can only imagine the immense pride you must take in perverting human worship of the spirit. Please take a moment to congratulate yourself on being a world class rectal cavity.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 11:07:25 AM||   2004-05-23 11:07:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 It is Allah. NOT Allan, Frank G
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 11:08:29 AM||   2004-05-23 11:08:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 The IRA planted between 20,000 and 30,000 bombs and only blew themselves up about 10 times. Judging by recent news, the Arabs are somewhere between a hundred and five hundred times more incompetant. Dropping large amount of explosives, detonators and red, green and blue wires on the Arab world would solve an awful lot of problems.
Posted by Phil B  2004-05-23 11:08:43 AM||   2004-05-23 11:08:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Allan
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 11:09:28 AM||   2004-05-23 11:09:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 frank :
Why did you start this site?
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 11:16:42 AM||   2004-05-23 11:16:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 3 x 72 = 216
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-23 11:33:20 AM||   2004-05-23 11:33:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 that's a lotta raisins, BigEd. Must be one of those big SunMaid boxes huh? Boy will they be disappointed. "I killed myself for Allan and all I got was this box of dried grapes? WTF?"
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 11:41:05 AM||   2004-05-23 11:41:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Gentle - this idea of 'splendours' and 'rewards' in heaven - all a bit materialistic, isn't it? Strikes me as rather shabbily unspiritual. The sexual reward thing is just, well, a bit lacking in class. Back to the point - what kind of god saves the best 'rewards' for people who devoted their lives to murdering other people? I'm curious to know.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-05-23 11:48:04 AM||   2004-05-23 11:48:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Bulldog - the kind that DOESN'T EXIST, except in the minds of his pathetic and perverted followers, who "follow" this morloch of their imaginations because of their shame in their lack of any success of their own (inventing bomb belts doesn't count).

It's a pathetic society that has invented absolutely nothing except a different method of murdering Jews.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-05-23 11:55:40 AM||   2004-05-23 11:55:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Sorry about the troll-baiting Fred ;-)
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 12:24:19 PM||   2004-05-23 12:24:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 gentle....you are a devil worshipping piece of shit. Your "allah" is nothing more than lucifer himself. Before this is all over....every one of you islamic bastards will be burning in HELL forever. And WE WILL send you there, you son-of-a-bitch.
Posted by Halfass Pete 2004-05-23 12:32:23 PM||   2004-05-23 12:32:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Go Pete! You rock!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 12:43:54 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 12:43:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Oh dear !
Where do I start?
Okay, Pete:
I am a girl.
all the rest of what you said is as equally worng as the word "son".
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 1:29:36 PM||   2004-05-23 1:29:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Woo-Hoo, Heave as a whorehouse. Sign me up Gentle!
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 1:36:57 PM||   2004-05-23 1:36:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I am on your side Gentle. I hope more of the Paleo leadership feels the same and blows themselves up. Or maybe our Zionist masters will help usher them to the bosom of allah.
Posted by Cyber Sarge  2004-05-23 1:38:08 PM||   2004-05-23 1:38:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Hey Gentle if you save yourself for after death, you can service the terrorist of your choice for eternity.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 1:38:13 PM||   2004-05-23 1:38:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Can we keep it Fred? Please? I haven't had this much fun since stomping baby ducks.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 1:41:46 PM||   2004-05-23 1:41:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 whitecollar, what poor Gentle doesn't know is that just when most of America had been lulled into forgetting 9/11 (as if!) and the Leftist Media was trying to beat us all to a pulp over the Abu Ghraib stuff, along came the Nick Berg beheading video and we all woke back up to who and what we're fighting over in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Many of us had been trying to be "nice" to Mooooslims, even after 3,000 of our peaceful civilians were slaughtered on 9/11, but that's getting harder and harder to do as they keep showing us that their "religion" is about anything but peace and has everything to do with making war and killing us.
God help them if there's another attack here like 9/11 or worse.
But they've been warned and they've been told.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 1:48:51 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 1:48:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Amen Pete!
What kind of religion would think that being able to rape 72 virgins in the after life is heaven?
Gentle - I think it is in "my" gods twisted sense of humor that would make you "think" that 72 virgins await you, and just before he opened the doors to welcome you, he would send you to hell, and watch you fall into the arms of Satan. Where there are 72 big men with very "Big Manhood" ready to take turns on you Gentle, for eternity!! That is what awaits you!
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-23 1:49:34 PM||   2004-05-23 1:49:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 What a fortuitous moment in history. A culture twisted into a death cult runs into a culture that has developed a military that is the most efficient killing machine ever. Coincidence? Only Allan knows. Praise be to Allan.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 1:55:13 PM||   2004-05-23 1:55:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 YOU HAVE FILTHY MINDS.
YOU SHOULD NOT USE SUCH FOUL LANGUAGE WITH ANYONE.
& YOU SHOULD CERTAINLY NEVER EVER TALK ABOUT ANY GOD OR RELIGION THAT WAY.
NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO JUDGE WHICH CULTURE OR RELIGION IS SUPERIOR.
TOUGH LUCK
& PLEASE:
WASH YOUR MOUTH
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 1:56:43 PM||   2004-05-23 1:56:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Gentle - I'm not out to bait you, I'd just like a response to my thoughts. The anticipation of crude carnal and/or materialistic rewards seems to motivate much of the violence that comes from Muslims towards non-Muslims. Are you content with that?
Posted by Bulldog  2004-05-23 2:00:06 PM||   2004-05-23 2:00:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Ouch! I seem to have struck a nerve here. Let's continue this train of thought. OK, where do the virgins come from? Will you kill me for blasphemy? Any Gentle Fatwas pending? I'd be happy to leave the Muslims in a 7th century utopia. However, you can't seem to keep your hands to yourselves.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:02:43 PM||   2004-05-23 2:02:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I learned foul language at the hands of some very capable drill sergeants. Like "shock and awe" you would know my foul language when you saw it.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:06:10 PM||   2004-05-23 2:06:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-23 2:07:07 PM||   2004-05-23 2:07:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Antiwar, the adults are trying to talk here. Please go back to little table and don't interrupt again.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:08:13 PM||   2004-05-23 2:08:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 We do have the right to judge when the current crop of global killers are all followers of the same death cult/moon god cult.
We were attacked on 9/11 and 3,000 of our citizens were murdered in cold blood by Muslims and now we're fighting back and trying to surgically remove the cancer of IslamoFascism in the Middle East by bringing democracy.
Whether they only represent the radicals of Islam or ALL of Islam is for the Arab world to decide NOW before there's another IslamoFacist attack!
I foresee the day when Islam will be banned worldwide because of this war, which Bin Laden, the Ayatollah Khomeini and other Islamic clerics have declared on America and on the non-Muslim world.
People in many countries across the planet are tired of cleaning up the bodies or the pieces of bodies of their dead, killed by Muslim jihadis and some day soon they will clamor for there to be no Muslims, even if they claim to be "peaceful."
It seems many of you can no longer be trusted.
If Islam doesn't reform itself, there will be no more Islam soon.
You'd better get busy in our own back yard trying to reform Islam in the UAE and work for womens' rights and for democratic reforms in your government.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:10:22 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:10:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Nice tag team, Jen.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:13:41 PM||   2004-05-23 2:13:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Having seen much of the 7th century pedophiliac and incestuous society that occupies current Islam, I'd say most of the virgins promised the Shahids and Jihadis must be 7-8 yrs old and able to run faster than the male relatives...
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 2:14:35 PM||   2004-05-23 2:14:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Do they really think they are going to screw all 72? Do they get to see their brests (booobs). Just asking, no big deal, Gentle. And thank you for being so polite.
Posted by Lucky 2004-05-23 2:16:24 PM||   2004-05-23 2:16:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Dear Penthouse Forum:
Some Jihadis and I were building a in my basement to kill some infidels when the next thing I know seventy-two of the hottest......
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:21:37 PM||   2004-05-23 2:21:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Oh God.
Frank, you really believe that?
You're not just saying that to make me angry?
Oh my God.
You actully think that it is true?
Then you know NOTHING about Islam, nothing.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 2:21:58 PM||   2004-05-23 2:21:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Dear Penthouse Forum:
Some Jihadis and I were building a bomb in my basement to kill some infidels when the next thing I know seventy-two of the hottest......
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:22:11 PM||   2004-05-23 2:22:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Allan is the moon god is a nonce, yes thats right a nonce,the practice of peodophilia is extremely comman in Isalmic countries and seeing as they all follow Allans laws it makes Allan a nonce!
Posted by Shep UK 2004-05-23 2:26:16 PM||   2004-05-23 2:26:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 True, w.r.! ;-)

AntiVert, you're on your weird Bible knowledge again (or rather lack of knowledge).
God--JEHOVAH--gave the land of Israel to the Children of Abraham and SARAH (not Abraham and Haggar).
One of the key things about Jesus Christ is his lineage (from the tribe of Levi)--through Abraham and Isaac and King David--so that God could show His people--the Hebrews--that Christ was literally "one of them."
In the Middle East still, family and tribe are everything.
Abraham SINNED when he lay with the handmaid Haggar because he and Sarah were getting old.
God promised Abraham that out of his "seed" would come many nations, but Abe got tired of waiting for Sarah to conceive and gave in to Haggar's charms.
Out of that union came Ishmael and the founder of the prototypical Muslim/Arab race.
The Lord promised Haggar and Ishmael that they would found a "nation," too, but its inheritance would not be that of the Hebrews, His chosen people.
Sarah did have a son--Isaac--whom Abraham almost sacrificed for God, prefiguring Jesus.

The Bible is a series of stories of God making a contract with the Jews, them breaking their part of the bargain, His punishment for their falling away and then their rapprochement...until He sends His Son to atone because it becomes clear to the Lord after hundreds of years of this that the Jews can't keep the laws and the convenants no matter what.
But as for the Paleostinians, they don't get bupkus in the Bible or anywhere else because they didn't exist until 1948!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:30:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:30:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 It was Ismael who was almost sacrificed, when god brought down a sheep to be killed in his place.
It is why we celebrate "Eid Al Adha"="Eid of the sacrifice.
Please get your facts straight
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 2:37:00 PM||   2004-05-23 2:37:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-23 2:38:54 PM||   2004-05-23 2:38:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Gen, honey, you stick with your Koran, I'll stay with my Bible and its version of Abraham almost sacrificing ISAAC, thank you.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:39:01 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:39:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Jen -
You are Amazing!! But you might have hurt some feelings. The truth hurts ya know ;-)
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-23 2:40:25 PM||   2004-05-23 2:40:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Jen=Bushie, Bush Lover, Bush supporter, Bush Backer
4 MORE YEARS! HOOAH!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:40:35 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:40:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 my final comment to Gentle and Anitiwar - taken from Bill Whittle's post elsewhere on RB today:

"Radical Islam is a religious cult based on constant, never-ending warfare. I personally am aware of no other religious tracts that are as filled with page after page of conquest, strategy and military jargon. Islam rose to prominence under the sword, and the Prophet was, above all else, a military commander determined to spread his faith by conquest and enslavement. Islam has rules for when prisoners should be released, ransomed, sold into slavery or have their throats cut. As a matter of fact, Islam has rules for everything. What to eat, how to wash, where and when and in which direction to pray. Islam has rules for the treatment of animals and the treatment of women. There is no part of daily life that is not specifically addressed, sanctioned or outlawed by Islam.

And contrary to post 9/11 spin, the most accurate translation of Islam is not “peace.” Prior to 9/11, the universally accepted translation of the concept of Islam was “submission.”

Of course, submission sounds a little more prickly to American ears. Matter of fact, it’s hard to imagine a word that would so enrage the American psyche than the concept of submission. “Tyranny,” perhaps, but tyranny is only what we are expected to submit to. Americans have fought against submission and Tyranny since there have been Americans. That’s what we do. That is who we are. And ever since the Revolution against submitting to the tyranny of King George, American revulsion with the entire idea of submission has been watered each generation by fresh waves of immigrants who have fled here escaping submission.

And here are two final thoughts on this issue:

First, Islam philosophically divides the world into two camps – this is Islam’s definitions, not mine -- Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. Dar al-Islam is the House of Submission. Dar Al-Harb is not the House of Infidels. It is the House of War.

I, and others who see a terrible threat in the growth of Radical Islam, did not invent this term. It is considerably older than my humble self; besides, I do not speak Arabic. It is their term. And unlike people determined to hide until this problem goes away, I am determined to take Islam at its word.

Finally, consider this: Muslims are angrily at war with Buddhists in East Asia. Muslims are at enraged with Animists in Africa. Of course, none of this approaches the sheer hatred that Muslims bear towards Hindus in the South Asia peninsula. And this foaming hatred blanches compared to the white-hot fury Muslims feel to the Christian American Crusaders. And this fury is but a candle to the incandescent, boiling, supernova of murder they feel toward the Jews.

Does anyone beside me detect a pattern here? You know, my Dad told me once, “Bill, if more than three people in your life are utter, total assholes, then maybe it’s you.” "
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 2:41:06 PM||   2004-05-23 2:41:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 YOU HAVE FILTHY MINDS.

And how is praising mass murderers not filthy?

POT > KETTLE > BLACK

There is little pornography filthier than the minds of those who can condone terrorism, Gentle. Your ability to countenance such horror is an incontrovertible discredit to your entire faith and completely repudiates your own worth as a putative human being.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 2:42:26 PM||   2004-05-23 2:42:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-23 2:45:07 PM||   2004-05-23 2:45:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Gentle, why won't you go on over and help them with their next bomb? Maybe you will be in the same place as them on your ride through town.
Posted by smokeysinse 2004-05-23 2:46:30 PM||   2004-05-23 2:46:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 No, my book says it was Isaac. I think the Jews would agree with me here as well. Enough smart-assery on my part however. Here is where I stand. You are the product of a cult. Founded by a bandit king using the elements of extant religions in the area to create a appearance of authenticity. Your cult was spread throughout the Middle East by bloodshed, oppression and terror. My God, sent his son to die for the world's sins. His followers spread this Gospel as itinerate preachers most of whom gladly died preaching the word. Christianity started as a religion of the oppressed and came to rule most of the world. Islam started as a religion of an oppressor and has run out of justifications.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:48:26 PM||   2004-05-23 2:48:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 LHR, hope not, but if all I hurt were feelings, that's OK.
I'm not blowing people up or sawing their heads off and yelling "Jesus Akhbar!" because they don't believe as I do.
I'm just trying to give poor deluded AntiBrains a "quick and dirty" theology lesson.
Hate to say it and maybe they've changed, but most Catholic churches don't usually stress Bible study that much.
I believe the custom is to let the priest tell you what you need to know about everything including Biblical history.
(Even mine's getting a little rusty. It's been a while since I joined the Baptists to worship--I'm here on Sunday morning, huh?)
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:49:04 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:49:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 I just posted an article.
Could you all please read it?
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 2:53:21 PM||   2004-05-23 2:53:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-05-23 2:53:25 PM||   2004-05-23 2:53:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I just posted an article.
Could you all please read it?
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 2:53:55 PM||   2004-05-23 2:53:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 No.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 2:54:34 PM||   2004-05-23 2:54:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Make mine a "No," too.
In fact, make mine a double!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 2:57:05 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 2:57:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Jen -
I am a huge fan! Keep beating the hell out of the ignorant. I am howling here in my bunker! Howling at them (Antiwar & Gentle) trying to win a gun fight with a knife.
Do you think Rantburg Master planted these two idiots just so we could be so entertained on this day of rest?
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-23 2:57:26 PM||   2004-05-23 2:57:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 they're the same idjit
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 3:00:06 PM||   2004-05-23 3:00:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Antiwar, please remind me:
Why are we here?
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 3:00:35 PM||   2004-05-23 3:00:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 To Learn.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:01:11 PM||   2004-05-23 3:01:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Say it ain't so Frank. I swore I would never waste a lot of time on our mad-Anti-that-we-keep-in-the-attic.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:04:16 PM||   2004-05-23 3:04:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 I didn't ask you.
But you do have a point;
I'm learning how ignorant yet arrogant a person can be once he has poeple to support him.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 3:04:58 PM||   2004-05-23 3:04:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Gentle -
Finding alot about yourself today ehhh..
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-23 3:07:33 PM||   2004-05-23 3:07:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Put money on it - look at their post times
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 3:07:44 PM||   2004-05-23 3:07:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Yeah, what LHR said.
If you came here to "convert" us all into Muslims because it's such a fabu religion with so many perks, forget it!
(I can't believe we've given you as much time as we have.)
The time for you to have given your "Islam is Peace" lecture and possibly get a polite audience in this country was 2 and 1/2 years, 2 combat ops and at least 4 major attacks on Westerners back.
Now, you're just living in an echo chamber, which is why you keep appealing to AntiBiotic for "understanding" and you're complaining.
You want us to tell you that Americans are "OK" with the Arab world staying the way it's always been and letting radicalized and now militarized Islamists attack us with impunity because deep down, you're all really "peaceful" and you worship a "merciful" god.
THAT. IS. NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.
Not here on this site and more seriously, not in your world.
So, Learn it. Love it. Live it.
If you don't believe me, check out the goings on at the latest Arab League summit--the news isn't good (for your side).
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 3:10:43 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 3:10:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Why are we here?

That's a question I've been trying to answer most of my life. Why are we here? Are we alone? Is there other life in the universe? Does God exist? If there is no soul, why are you you, and me me? Why can't we be us, sharing a single mind? What will happen to us when we die? What is the answer to life?
Posted by Rafael 2004-05-23 3:11:34 PM||   2004-05-23 3:11:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 Thanks Frank, I'm a little slow today if I was snookered. If that is the case then I am going back to smartassery.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:13:44 PM||   2004-05-23 3:13:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Antiwar, please remind me:
Why are we here?

I would assume it is to ostensibly persuade others here over to your own viewpoint through skilled articulation of factual information. None of which either of you are doing at present.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:14:22 PM||   2004-05-23 3:14:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Rafael: The answer is 42. See The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
Posted by Matt 2004-05-23 3:15:23 PM||   2004-05-23 3:15:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Yeah, but the question is "What is 7 times 7?".
What sad world.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:16:54 PM||   2004-05-23 3:16:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 What is the answer to life?

42
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:17:03 PM||   2004-05-23 3:17:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 RE: #44, the Palestinians have always existed. What a laugh, me, I wanna LIVE, and I will kill anyone who wants to stop me doing that.
OT, slightly, Gentle, strange name for a supporter of terror.
Posted by rhodesiafever 2004-05-23 3:17:29 PM||   2004-05-23 3:17:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 "Antiwar, please remind me: Why are we here?"

That's a really good question. Why ARE you here? Why do you continue seeking the company of people who obviously despise you and consider your religion little more than a primitive, superstitious death-cult? Why do you seek out the company of people who hold everything you believe in utter contempt?

Why?
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 3:17:37 PM||   2004-05-23 3:17:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 You beat me to it, Matt.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:17:56 PM||   2004-05-23 3:17:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 Dave D - see definition of a "troll"
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 3:18:35 PM||   2004-05-23 3:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Uh... guys, if we go much further we're going to make Rantburg into a Star Trek convention and those Klingon masks make my forehead break out.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:18:53 PM||   2004-05-23 3:18:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Gentle, you are going to have a hard time convincing most of us here that Islam is all about peace and love.

I've *read* the Koran and while my Arabic is shaky, if I go slowly and use various references I can make it through.

The reality is that a literal reading of the Koran, as taught in most Islamic schools of thought, does indeed call for violent attacks on any who do not submit.

I for one don't plan to. It's that simple.

And I *read* other things too, like the sermons being preached in many mosques around the world. I read mullahs and imams calling other humans pigs, dogs, filth, less than dirt. That ANGERS me a whole lot, you know. And no, I'm not Jewish. Or, for that matter, a Zionist.

I am, however, female - a mother and perhaps soon a grandmother. And I tell you directly, what is said above is true: either the Muslim world reforms itself and controls those who spew hatred and violence, or we will do it for you.

It really comes down to that.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 3:19:40 PM||   2004-05-23 3:19:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 It is the least I can do.
To let you know the truth.
You may not accept it, but hey, you can do whatever you like.
Just as long as you know.
Posted by  Gentle 2004-05-23 3:20:27 PM||   2004-05-23 3:20:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Matt, Zen: you guys have good memory. I knew it was forty-something, but couldn't remember for the life of me.
Posted by Rafael - Mostly harmless 2004-05-23 3:26:06 PM||   2004-05-23 3:26:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 Thanks Frank, upon further review the writing styles are enough alike to indicate that Gen and Anti are the same. Maybe she is converting early to avoid the rush.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:26:38 PM||   2004-05-23 3:26:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 You know what really hurts?
That you actually believe this.
To me it feels as though you are trying to convince me that that all humans have 6 hands.
I mean; how strange is that.
Stop it. All of you.
Open your eyes. This isn't some sort of game.
I wish you could see it the "real" way.
No, don't try to get smart all you hot shots.
read this and , for once, act like adults.
Don't let your anger blind you.
rkb:
I'm a muslim girl.
I'm 18.
I respect you and understand your anger.
Just TRY to look at this from a diffrent perspective.

Gentle
Posted by  Gentle  2004-05-23 3:26:41 PM||   2004-05-23 3:26:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Yes, and according to some Islamic preachers, now that you've preached Islam to us, we deserve any barbarous acts you or others might perpetrate on us.

Pfah.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 3:26:43 PM||   2004-05-23 3:26:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 least you could do would be to not reproduce. Save youself for some Shahid, ok, hon?
Posted by Frank G  2004-05-23 3:27:32 PM||   2004-05-23 3:27:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 It is the least I can do. To let you know the truth. You may not accept it, but hey, you can do whatever you like.
Isn't it PLAIN that we know the truth and it's the opposite of what you say.
Arabs and Muslims are really huge LIARS. Ever notice that?
Just as long as you know.
Just as long as YOU KNOW: if you fuck with the United States of America and kill her people and do it in the name of Islam, we will hunt you down and find you and we're going to come after you with both guns blazing, so you'd better get those 72 virgin boys ready because you're going to meet Allan.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 3:27:54 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 3:27:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#87 Yawn.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:28:06 PM||   2004-05-23 3:28:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#88 No, rkb.
According to Quran and the sunnah and ALL good muslim preachers:
Now that I have told you, there is nothing else I should do, for Islam believes in the freedom of choice.
Posted by  Gentle  2004-05-23 3:30:58 PM||   2004-05-23 3:30:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#89 OT, slightly, Gentle, strange name for a supporter of terror.

If you take into consideration the Arab world's congenital and indisputably collective ownership of a certain Egyptian river, a terror supporter adopting the monicker "Gentle" is no great leap for the imagination.

In the finest of Arab traditions, swallowing camels whole and straining on gnats.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:31:24 PM||   2004-05-23 3:31:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#90 Man, these religious threads are piling bandwidth up like Jack the Pig! It is all very amusing, sidling up to the Troll Trough™, but the main issue is this:

Two Paleos were blown up in their car because they have never learned to carry explosives and detonators separately to the jobsite. Read your DuPont powderhandler's manual and remember your training. Oh, yes, it's OJT in Gaza and the West Bank. Inshallah, suckers.
Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-05-23 3:32:14 PM||   2004-05-23 3:32:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#91 Where's .com been? He should of gotten a piece of this.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:32:45 PM||   2004-05-23 3:32:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#92 He's probably doing what all of us should be doing: sitting outside drinking a beer, watching the barbeque do its delectible magic.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 3:35:46 PM||   2004-05-23 3:35:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#93 I told you Jen.
I don't agree with what happened on 11/9
It was a huge crime and those who did it should be taken to court.
They killed innocent poeple.
They have no right to live, but that is not my decision to make.
God help us Jen.
we have the same beliefs yet we have been so torn apart that I'm starting to wonder if anything can repair the damage first lies can have on you.
Next time when you want to learn something, don't get the information from someone who will milead you. Someone who will benefit from misguiding you, someone who has nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Someone who has the power.
The power to do anything, even change the truth.
Posted by  Gentle  2004-05-23 3:36:31 PM||   2004-05-23 3:36:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#94 MMMmmmmmm.....Pork ribs......
That alone is worth fighting for.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 3:36:47 PM||   2004-05-23 3:36:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#95 Everybody sing:

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spot..light
Losing my religion
...

OK enough silliness for today, I've got some carpentry work to do...no, really I do...
Posted by Rafael - dhimmi mode 2004-05-23 3:36:47 PM||   2004-05-23 3:36:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#96 Gentle #83, I *have* looked at things from other perspectives. I live and work among people of many religions and many countries of origin.

I really do understand the impact of global culture on traditional societies. I sympathize with the struggle and stress that presents.

I also know about the brief time when Muslims were guardians of classical culture, embellishing the work of the Greeks and Romans and passing them on to a renewed Europe.

But those days are long past. Islam chose many years ago to shut itself off. That worked when there were no airplanes or televisions or Internet. It will not work today.

Muslim societies *must* find a way to join the modern world. Because the alternative - open war between Muslims and the modern world - will not be kind to Muslims. There are those among you who wish to provoke just such an all-out war, either out of despairing pride or in the sincere belief that Allah will intervene to save His people.

I agree that this is not a game. It is deadly serious - more serious than you may understand. Most of us writing here are hoping against hope that we do NOT need to use the force we are capable of.

But understand this: if necessary, we *will* do whatever it takes. We will *not* become dhimmi.

And although there are those who would submit (without really believing) because they have lost all sense of self-worth, or pride in their civilization, there are many others who are ready to oppose violence and hatred with whatever level of force is required to protect ourselves, our families and our freedoms - including our freedom of religion.

I sincerely hope you realize we *do* know what Islam teaches -- *all* of its teachings, including those you would understandably like not to emphasize.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 3:36:54 PM||   2004-05-23 3:36:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#97 Qur’an 3:140 “If you have received a blow and have been wounded, be sure a similar wound has hurt others. Such days We give to men and men by turns: that Allah may know those who believe, and that He may take to Himself from your ranks Martyrs.”

"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also." (Matthew 5:39,40)
Posted by Zpaz 2004-05-23 3:37:23 PM||   2004-05-23 3:37:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#98 Islam believes in the freedom of choice.
Pure and utter dogshit.
No religion that forces people to convert at the point of a gun, sword or bomb could possibly believe in any "freedom of choice."
In fact, most Islamic clerics preach that democracy is a heresy.
Actually, there is no need for freedom of choice in the bizarre world of Islam where everything is as "Allan wills it."
And now that we've told you to reform Islam and those theocratic sandtrappies you call countries or continue the "jihad" at your own peril, you've been told, as well.
I now believe in the Bush Doctrine almost as firmly as I do my Christian Faith.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 3:37:44 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 3:37:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#99 Gentle, we can trade quotations if you like, although I'm away from my texts.

But "freedom of religion" is truly *not* at the center of most Islamic traditions. At best, those who do not submit to Islam are granted a second-class status, with various impediments imposed on them.

More to the point: there are many imams who are openly preaching the things I mention. Few if any in the Muslim world have spoken up to say that they are wrong. Even fewer are acting to prevent the hatred and violent actions those imams encourage.

The question is not what you believe Islam to be, although that is of some interest. The real question is what Islamic teachers and leaders are doing, and what Muslim populations support or oppose.

I cannot tell you how sad I was when Muslims I've known for years were smug and quietly happy about 9/11, justify the teaching of hatred in madrassas here and overseas, and began to speak openly about the restoration of Islam and one day, a world-wide Caliphate over all.

I was deeply, deeply sad. And then, I grew angry. And remain so today.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 3:43:30 PM||   2004-05-23 3:43:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#100 Open your eyes. This isn't some sort of game.

Gentle, in this particular instance you are quite correct. This most definitely "isn't some sort of game." All Islam had better understand that its continued existence, both spiritual and corporeal entirely hinges upon the rapid and genuine reformation of its militant adherents.

The clock is ticking down to midnight on your religion. Only a few more 9-11 style atrocities will be required for people to begin openly advocating simple nuclear obliteration of all Islamic countries. Only so many horrors can be absorbed by tolerant cultures until all such latitude suddenly evaporates in the fulminations of righteous anger.

The convulsion of that rage will sweep away Islam like dust before a whirlwind. I cannot urge you strongly enough to reconsider your ill-thought-out support for terrorism. It is precisely such deficient thinking that has stagnated Arab culture for centuries and will quite possibly cause its utter extinction in the very near future.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:44:25 PM||   2004-05-23 3:44:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#101 >Islam believes in the freedom of choice

Then why the death penalty if a muslim chooses to reject islam?

BTW I don't know if gentle is legitimately UAE and not a puppet, but IP tracing is not a definitive answer. I'm currently operating through a UAE proxy just for the hell of it...
Posted by Lux 2004-05-23 3:44:59 PM||   2004-05-23 3:44:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#102 Seriously, guys, is there a problem here? Most religions accept reality about the after-life, and take the preacher's word with a pinch of salt, but not these guys. Is it a genetic defect and are frontal lobotomies in order? 762 recommended to cure everything.
Posted by rhodesiafever 2004-05-23 3:45:45 PM||   2004-05-23 3:45:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#103 This is the longest string I've ever started, and on a Sunday yet. Thank you Gentle. I could easily imitate your comments in the future (Islamonline can give me everything I need to fake it) however, the people around here would see my IP and out me.
Posted by mhw 2004-05-23 3:47:43 PM||   2004-05-23 3:47:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#104 Quite well said, Zenster.
Your time here at RB has been well spent! ;-)
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 3:48:07 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 3:48:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#105 I am sorry this happend to you rbk.
It is NOT how muslims think & it is not how they should think.
I told you my opinion about 11/9 and all the poeple I know share that opinion with me.
God forgive those who think it right to kill the innocent.
I really am sorry rkb, sorry you had to see such poeple.
They do not represent Islam, I promise you.
Posted by  Gentle  2004-05-23 3:50:08 PM||   2004-05-23 3:50:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#106 Gentle, you are either deceitful or a clueless fool. How anyone could look at the origins and history and products of the Islamic world and believe Islam is the path to God is beyond me. If you are indeed a woman, it is even more perplexing. The Middle East is a sand pit and Islam is a prescription for primitive survival in a sand pit through ruthless conquest and banditry. It is a ticket to Hell.
Posted by Tom 2004-05-23 3:51:42 PM||   2004-05-23 3:51:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#107 "Only a few more 9-11 style atrocities will be required for people to begin openly advocating simple nuclear obliteration of all Islamic countries."

It won't take a few; just one will suffice-- especially if John Kerry gets elected this fall. GWB would stay with the "reformation" course, come hell or high water; but if Kerry is elected, he will know it must be because America does not have the patience to follow Bush's idealistic, but exasperating and costly, course of action.

And if there is another terrorist attack with massive casualties on U.S. soil, he will take the only option left: total war.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 3:52:41 PM||   2004-05-23 3:52:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#108 "I really am sorry rkb, sorry you had to see such poeple. They do not represent Islam, I promise you."

What you need to do, if you really want to make a difference, is to stop telling US they don't represent Islam, and start telling THEM they don't represent Islam.

Because according to them, they DO represent Islam.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 3:55:36 PM||   2004-05-23 3:55:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#109 I also know about the brief time when Muslims were guardians of classical culture, embellishing the work of the Greeks and Romans and passing them on to a renewed Europe.

But those days are long past. Islam chose many years ago to shut itself off. That worked when there were no airplanes or televisions or Internet. It will not work today.

The intense eloquence of that entire post was incredibly well spoken, rkb. I applaud your efforts.

PS: Jen, since you are opting to be polite, please consider that I openly advocated and correctly predicted the use of fuel-air bombs to defeat the Taleban in Afghanistan.

One of the only real eye-openers for me at Rantburg was the "Oil for Food" scandal and its implications regarding America's near-unilateral initiation of the Iraq campaign. For that, I give my thanks to Fred, his crew and those here who have engaged me in honorable debate.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 3:56:06 PM||   2004-05-23 3:56:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#110 Gentle, just got in but I must say that I take your #28 comment as a compliment.
Posted by Evert V. in NL  2004-05-23 3:57:27 PM|| [http://srv.fotopages.com/?o=935389&t=2]  2004-05-23 3:57:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#111 Gentle, I believe you speak truly about your own attitudes. But in fact I must say that you do not seem to represent many, many Muslims ... as others here have said.

I wanted to add one thing that may help you understand the feelings of many here. Like Arabic culture, my father's Russian culture believes very deeply in the sacred duty of hospitality.

My country has offered hospitality to many Arabs and many Muslims of various ethnic backgrounds. We generously have made room for those who would live here. We've opened our schools to them, teaching our technology, our science and engineering, our medicine.

When those to whom we've offered such hospitality repay it with treachery, their guilt and our anger go deep. Today, in my country, in Britain and in other countries around the world, imams and jihadis who have taken our gifts of hospitality repay us with deliberate attacks, verbal and violent.

Would your country, your father and his house, accept such acts meekly?
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 4:02:14 PM||   2004-05-23 4:02:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#112 Now that I have told you, there is nothing else I should do, for Islam believes in the freedom of choice.

So long as the choice is Islam. Any other choice and you're either treated like dirt or killed.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-23 4:03:04 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-23 4:03:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#113 What you need to do, if you really want to make a difference, is to stop telling US they don't represent Islam, and start telling THEM they don't represent Islam.

This is quite easily the finest advice you have gotten all day, Gentle. Should you prove unable to do this, you will share part of the collective blame for Islam's downfall. The continued existence of your faith depends utterly upon the willingness of people like to do so. If you cannot, do not expect very much good news in the future.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 4:03:14 PM||   2004-05-23 4:03:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#114 The continued existence of your faith depends utterly upon the willingness of people like YOU to do so.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 4:06:22 PM||   2004-05-23 4:06:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#115 Deal!
I'll do that, and you stop the killing of innocent poeple.
At least children and women in Iraq & palestine.
Posted by  Gentle  2004-05-23 4:06:49 PM||   2004-05-23 4:06:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#116 Ha! We caught you Antiwar.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-05-23 4:08:33 PM||   2004-05-23 4:08:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#117 At least children and women in Iraq & palestine.

Tell the jihadis to quit hiding behind them.

(Of course, I'm sure there's a fatwa somewhere saying that it's perfectly acceptable to use women and children as shields, since they'd be dying in the process of jihad, and thus would be entitled to their pack of Sun Maid raisins. The Muslim world seems to produce a hell of a lot of fatwas giving permission to commit horrible crimes.)
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-23 4:11:19 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-23 4:11:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#118 I would dearly like to prevent the killing of innocent children and women.

I'd also like jihadis to stop using women and children as human shields while they attack others.

I'd like Israeli children and elderly women not to be blown to bits while riding a bus peacefully.

I'd like Palestinian mothers to demand peace rather than teaching their children to hate and to attack.

These aren't made up: there is plenty of evidence about these actions.

I'd like the shame and despair in the Muslim world to end -- but not at the expense of the lives and dignity of others.

And especially not by hating and preaching hate and violence.

I'd like Palestinians to admit that their policy of killing Israelis has hurt them more than it has hurt Israel, despite how grievous that has been. I'd like them to admit that they have chosen the corruption of Fatah rather than building schools, roads, hospitals, industries and a country that can prosper.

I'd like the Muslim world to admit what you all know - that many funerals of Palestinian children and women have turned out to be faked - in one instance, on video, we see the "victim" spill out, get up, laugh, and resume his acting role.

I'd like the Muslim world to admit that many of the women and children killed in Fallujah have been shot by jihadis and insurgents, not by US troops.

Above all, I'd like not to have to clean up these messes around the world. But understand, I and others like me WILL intervene when the Arab and Muslim worlds attack and kill others rather than deal with the problems in their own societies.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 4:18:20 PM||   2004-05-23 4:18:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#119 RC -
I'll look for a fatwa on this (Islamonline has a lot of them but I don't remember anything quite this specific).

Notwithstanding what Islam has to say, the tactics of the Paleo terrorists, namely, firing at Israelis from Civilian sites, wearing civilian clothing while carrying out military operations, targeting civilians, using civilians to smuggle bombs, using civilian sites to store munitions and many others are clear violations of several conventions (however, the Paleos are not signotories to any of the conventions).

The mutilation of dead bodies by Paleo civilians, which the Paleos have done on several occasions is not covered by any of the conventions -- it does show the inhumanity of the Paleos however (and as I recall I did find a fatwa that allowed it).
Posted by mhw 2004-05-23 4:20:05 PM||   2004-05-23 4:20:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#120 Forget deals, Gentle: JUST DO IT.

Do it before those other people who say they represent Islam, but who you say do not, commit an act so horrible and stupid that we are forced to conclude that our survival can only be secured by destroying your entire culture.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 4:24:28 PM||   2004-05-23 4:24:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#121 Question for you Gentle, whats the official penalty in quran (go ahead and look it up if you'd like, if not just about all of us here can tell you what it is) for any muslim convert to christianity or judaism?
Posted by Valentine 2004-05-23 4:48:34 PM||   2004-05-23 4:48:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#122 Deal! I'll do that, and you stop the killing of innocent poeple.

Gentle, you will do yourself some sort of credit if you truly pursue such efforts.

One indisputably valid reason for America going into Iraq was to save innocent people from death at the hands of Saddam, who was killing some 40,000 Iraqis annually. While some 10,000 Iraqis have perished (many at the hands of fellow Arab bombers), there are some 30,000 who are alive today because of our presence there.

I hope you are able to accept the reality of this concept. Fewer Iraqis are now dying since Saddam was deposed. If there is one thing that redeems any of America's lamentable blunders in Iraq, this is it.

The Palestinians are another matter entirely and their faults are well addressed by the immediately preceding posts. Palestinian terrorism has negated any valid claim they might make upon the world's sympathies. They must abandon the Fatah to begin regaining any moral credibility whatsoever. If they are unable to, they can look forward to nothing save extinction as a people.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 4:48:58 PM||   2004-05-23 4:48:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#123 For decades; nay, centuries; the authoritarian left opposed religion, usually characterizing it as a device of the opposition.
Even Stalin embraced religion when he needed to, however, and this process has accelerated with the collapse of the nominally atheistic Soviet Union.

Many leftist power-seekers now recognize that religion can be a complementary form of authority, rather than a rival one. They demonize the convenient strawman of the "religious right" as a smokescreen to deflect attention from their own defacto alliance with various religious belief systems. Radical pacifist groups like the Quakers and Mennonites are among the founding members of the far left, while left-wing sentiment abounds in the so-called "mainstream" denominations.

The latter have found social action, as defined by leftist power-seekers, to be a potent substitute for their nearly extinct spiritual appeal.

Islam, an unevolved medieval belief system transposed into the 21th Century, is a powerful addition to the far left's array of religious allies.
Unlike, say, the Quakers, Muslims are committed to the use of violence, offering a direct route to objectives that are increasingly unlikely to be achieved by traditional "peace movement" methods such as deception, pompous moralizing, and the collaboration of mass media.

Like the adherents of the various "religious left" entities, Islamic populations share the far left's vision of the United States as a Great Satan and the primary enemy of goodness and virtue in the world. Indeed, many of the standard tropes of Islamofascist propaganda are lifted verbatim from the post-Vietnam rhetoric of the western left.

This war is a major breaking point in world history. In broadest terms, it is a showdown between a hellish alliance of authoritarian power-seekers on one side and the principles of the Enlightenment on the other.
It has been building for 200 years and it will not end soon.
It will get worse, much worse, before it gets better.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-05-23 5:21:47 PM||   2004-05-23 5:21:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#124 Gentle is probably a second year PhD candidate at Berkeley who spent last night angry and alone.
Posted by ne1469 2004-05-23 5:42:02 PM||   2004-05-23 5:42:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#125 Possibly, but I figure it's worth a small investment of time to address the claims s/he makes ...

I really *would* like to avoid all-out global war. Although not at any cost .....
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 5:57:01 PM||   2004-05-23 5:57:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#126 Through this whole thread, not one "I am sorry for the way my Islamo Nazi brothers are acting in the name of Allah" I have not seen one Islamo say it ever since 911 or before. If there is another 911 in the USA I will be hard press to resist the temptation to start hunting down Islamist in my country the, "USofA". I am sure that I will not be alone in my pursuit. Let me make sure Gentle you understand this. I will have no compassion for your ilk. You will become a "nameless faceless enemy" to me and no longer in my eyes a human being.
Posted by Long Hair Republican  2004-05-23 6:10:24 PM||   2004-05-23 6:10:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#127 Yes, rkb, though I don't find much encouragement from today's thread.

I've seen very little evidence since 9/11 that Arabs actually comprehend that they've got a problem; that it's a truly severe problem; that the problem simply must be solved very, very soon; and that it is ultimately their problem to solve, not ours.

They seem to think that arguing with us, wheedling, whining, name-calling, bargaining and playing the poor, helpless, whimpering "victim" will somehow accomplish something, and so far nothing seems capable of jarring them out of that mode.

On the morning of 9/11, as I watched the second tower collapse, I had a premonition: this will be a war of utter annihilation, and in the next decade over a billion people will die.

God, please don't let that premonition come true: give these people some sense.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 6:20:26 PM||   2004-05-23 6:20:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#128 Dave, I don't think it's an Arab problem. Witness Nigeria, Indonesia, the Philippines, Spain, Peru, India, Thailand, etc. All with the same homegrown situations. The problem IS the religion. True followers of the Quran MUST be jihadis or they're just nominals.

No god likes nominals. Especially the god of this world. Your premonition is biblical. And not just in proportion.
Posted by scott 2004-05-23 6:34:52 PM||   2004-05-23 6:34:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#129 rkb, as this thread slowly winds to a close, I would like to take another moment and again praise your very level-headed, compassionate and well thought out contributions. Amidst the gratuitous insults (one of which I myself have flung) and bilious ranting you have consistently made cogent and eloquent arguments that go to the heart of this discussion. I applaud and admire your perseverence towards obtaining and transmitting some sort of honorable understanding out of this contentious melee. Thank you.
Posted by Zenster 2004-05-23 6:59:45 PM||   2004-05-23 6:59:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#130 I stand corrected; yes, the problem is with Islam, not just with Arabs; though it is they who most aggressively export the most virulent extremism.

The transition Islam has to make, and make quickly, is this: that although Islam may mean "submission," that submission must be ONLY to God; it is a matter of individual conscience, and Islam simply must cease meaning "submission to mullah"-- or it will perish.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-05-23 7:00:51 PM||   2004-05-23 7:00:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#131 You hit the nail right on the head, Dave. Actually, the religion in point has always been a scam, starting with Mohammed. A motivation for conquest. Maybe that's unfair, because I do believe they actually worship a spiritual being and that being does empower them. I just don't believe it's Jehovah.
Posted by scott 2004-05-23 7:13:36 PM||   2004-05-23 7:13:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#132 Hey, I kind of like the guy who called their "God" Allan. Allan Alakbar. Sounds Jewish.
Posted by Infidel Bob  2004-05-23 7:49:29 PM||   2004-05-23 7:49:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#133 Thanks, Zenster.

Perhaps it's because the consequences of all-out war are so very immediate to me.

In a few days, my students from this year will graduate and become commissioned officers. One of our students from last year just came home to be buried with honors.

I am around soldiers every day and not one of them enjoys the idea of war. But all will fight if need be. Whenever I am tempted to rant for the fun of it, I look at the people who work next to me. One commanded tanks in Desert Storm, one was a female MP commander in Bosnia. Last year the officer next door was a Special Ops guy with a Master's degree in computer science and a Pathfinder badge - if the Special Ops guys are out there without a safety net, he's the one that's even further out.

I look at my students and realize many of them will be in similar places in less than a year.

When my husband was active duty USAF, I often spent time around missile launch officers, pilots and those who build our space assets. I can snark with the best of you all and sometimes am tempted .... but then I think of just what those missiles actually could do if launched.

OTOH, I'm 52, I can shoot a gun, and I'll be damned if I'll wear a burqa or pay dhimmi taxes to anyone.
Posted by rkb  2004-05-23 8:09:13 PM||   2004-05-23 8:09:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#134 I stand corrected; yes, the problem is with Islam, not just with Arabs; though it is they who most aggressively export the most virulent extremism.

That's because Islam is Arab culture turned into a religion.

Anyone remember who remarked on how the Muslims of Pakistan, as they became more "religious", began to eat like Arabs instead of the traditional foods of their ancestors?
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-23 8:12:57 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-23 8:12:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#135 Gentle, I'm only twenty, not much older than you. I'm getting ready for my third year in college, and I have a wonderful girlfriend who I hope to marry some day (and judging from that wonderful advice the other day, half the people on Rantburg expect that, too; thanks, guys!). I've done a lot of reading on Islam. I am not a Muslim. But because of what I've read, I don't want to be.

I realize that it's very painful for you to accept this, but many in your religion do spew hate. I've made fun of them in the past, but this time I'm being deadly serious: they hate. They kill. They want to destroy everything the West holds dear - and believe it or not, there are things we hold dear. I want to marry my woman and not have to worry about whether she'll be gang-raped because I'm not with her when she goes out. I don't want any children we might have to have to be told that creativity and imagination are evil in the face of Allah. I don't want my children to be taught that blowing oneself up is pleasing to Allah. I don't want that.

But that's what sects of your religion are. Please, I beg you, read the sermons. Look at what they're trying to say. Don't try to excuse it, don't try to explain it away, just read it with no preconceptions one way or the other. See for yourself what it says in the Qu'ran about the unbelievers. Look at the human rights records and the governments of Islamic republics. I have been harsh towards Islam, mocking it at times, yes. But towards a lot of other things as well. Because in the West, we can do that. We can express our opinion on anything. Nothing is above criticism. And just because I make fun of it doesn't mean I don't think it can't be positive.

I welcome Muslims who want to learn how to live within Western society, who want to set alarms on their watches to know when to pray, and who step away to do so. Who want to practice their religion alongside mine, who wish to live in peace with Christians and Jews. Who wish to work hard and contribute to society. I don't welcome those who wish to change it into a repressive hell, who hate everyone that doesn't think like them, who preach destruction and death. They want to destroy us; is it only natural that our response is to go after them in the same way? They are not trying to bring the Word of God, and they aren't preaching the truth. Islam must reform itself, or it will destroy itself. Please read your history, Gentle. Read about the murders of three of the most honored caliphs, about the myriad of conspiracies, about the wars - just as I read about the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition. No religion is bloodless. No religion is blameless. And no religion is exempt from inspection.
Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-23 8:18:17 PM||   2004-05-23 8:18:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#136 That was a bolt from the blue, RC. Arabs are Ishmaelites aren't they? I thought their day was done. Is the "great nation" promised to Abraham still to come?!?
Posted by scott 2004-05-23 8:32:00 PM||   2004-05-23 8:32:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#137 Scott,
I looked in that Ishmael thing once. It seems that that when you convert to Islam, you take a tribal affiliation - namely, one of the 12 sons of Ishmael (there may be parts of the Islamic world that do this differently) . So the ancestry is 'spiritual' rather than genetic (even assuming you believed that ishmael was a real person).
Posted by mhw 2004-05-23 10:19:20 PM||   2004-05-23 10:19:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#138 Zenster, you acquitted yourself well here today.
Maybe I'll let you stay! (Just kidding.)
And to all my other VRWC members and RBers, you also have made me feel that my country's in good hands (and minds) and maybe now I can get some real sleep.
God bless you all!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-23 11:34:47 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-23 11:34:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#139 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Shipman 2004-05-23 12:31:52 PM||   2004-05-23 12:31:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#140 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Shipman 2004-05-23 12:31:52 PM||   2004-05-23 12:31:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#141 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-05-23 2:07:07 PM||   2004-05-23 2:07:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#142 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-05-23 2:38:54 PM||   2004-05-23 2:38:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#143 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-05-23 2:45:07 PM||   2004-05-23 2:45:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#144 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Antiwar 2004-05-23 2:53:25 PM||   2004-05-23 2:53:25 PM|| Front Page Top

12:31 Shipman
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