Article

2004-05-22 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Ptah 2004-05-22 13:12|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Aris' link in the previous day's discussion about deaths at Abu Graib was unhelpful, so when I found this one, I decided to post it. As usual, our military does all the footwork and puts it out into the open. I'm more than mildly irritated at our news media for concentrating on the sex escapades of the guards, and not enough on really serious stuff like deaths in prisons.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-22 2:17:36 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-22 2:17:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 You anti-American, you.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 3:41:54 PM|| 2004-05-22 3:41:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 I hold truth to be higher than nation, than life.

Even higher than God.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-22 4:45:49 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-22 4:45:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Except when *I* am supporting truth ofcourse. In those cases I'm just revealing my anti-American goatfucking commie bigotry, plus my Greek nationalistic prejudice and asshat trollery.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 5:03:36 PM|| 2004-05-22 5:03:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 AK, you're almost right...
We've seen no evidence of your "Greek nationalism."

Posted by Jen 2004-05-22 6:19:13 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-22 6:19:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Sure about that? There was a huge post Ptah made yesterday accusing me of that. It was multi-pointed.

None of the points even approached reality ofcourse, but truth seems to not be so much above everything, when people just need to find random things to insult me with/accuse me of in a hurry.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 6:33:31 PM|| 2004-05-22 6:33:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 AK, what's troubling about your posts is that you act as if this is all about you, which is incorrect.
This blog is about the war, America's WOT and if it's about a person, Fred.
If you want a blog that's all about you, go to Blogger and start one. It's still free.
Spare us your inner breakdown, please.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-22 6:49:10 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-22 6:49:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 There's nothing random about attacking you Aris. Yesterday you condemned the entire US army and you got called on it. Live with it.

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-22 6:59:40 PM|| 2004-05-22 6:59:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 "AK, what's troubling about your posts is that you act as if this is all about you, which is incorrect. "

Well, somehow I very much doubt that it was not about me when you called me an America-hating communist troll. And a goatfucker ofcourse. Let's not forget the goatfucking.

If you don't want it to be personal, don't make it so. Or be prepared to defend the rabid insults and attacks.

But as for now, I have been proven right and you idiotic bastards have been proven wrong. And one of the good things about not being a Christian is that I'm under no obligation to forgive.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 7:05:16 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:05:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Aris, truth is truth. Fact is, we don't know what's going on there. You seem to assume this is evidence of America's evil (at least, from the way you go on about it), and go to great lengths to shout us down when we protest and give our own interpretation, and then things just degenerate into an insult match. Admittedly, we don't want to believe that's the norm over there - but despite the picture the media's trying to paint, we haven't seen evidence that it is. And I'll grant that it is hard to believe that things which might be facts may indeed not be anti-American propaganda. And maybe, just maybe, that is something of a failing on our part. But it's an understandable one: we need to believe in our nation, we need to believe in what we're doing, or else there isn't any point.

And step back for a second. Are we arguing with you over the fact that the actions taken in that prison are bad? That the people in charge need to be punished? Hell, no! We're calling for their heads, man! What we don't agree with is the way this is used to attack America, to attack what we're doing there, which is something we believe is right. And we get angry when people do that. And when we get angry, we're not happy, and when that happens we start to insult. Maybe some people are more sensitive than others; I don't know. But remember, somewhere between you, and me, and Ptah, and Jen, and .com, and Fred, the Army of Steves, and everyone else here, is the truth. Finding it can be painful for all of us, but as Ptah said, it is the highest thing out there. It's worth it.

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-22 7:06:12 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:06:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 "Yesterday you condemned the entire US army and you got called on it."

No I didn't. You lie, yet again. I never condemned it, I only said I didn't trust it.

There's pretty much no institution that I can trust unchecked and uncontrolled with the lives of people.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 7:07:39 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:07:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Thank you, Doctor.
Couldn't have said it better myself.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-22 7:08:26 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-22 7:08:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 And what have you been proven right about? That some questionable things have gone on in Iraq? While surprising, I don't think it's possible to not have expected something, if for no other reason than, to quote the great Scott Adams, "People are idiots."

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-22 7:08:56 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:08:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "You seem to assume this is evidence of America's evil"

Oh, what pure bullshit. No, *you* assume it of me. All of you assume it so strongly that I then have to repeatedly protest that I never EVER condemned the whole of America.

But as I said my actual posts are never considered when people have their own fictional anti-American me that they can attack for things I never actually said.

Goodbye all. I'm not posting in Rantburg again. The rampant fanatical idiocy has become way too prevalent and frustrating. This was my last post.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 7:12:45 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:12:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 There is a God and He answers prayer.

Posted by Jen 2004-05-22 7:13:52 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-22 7:13:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I never condemned it, I only said I didn't trust it.

Yeah, so you think all American soldiers are untrustworthy. Yesterday you advocated handing over control of prisons to Germany (in Afghanistan). What's next on your agenda?

Posted by Rafael 2004-05-22 7:23:48 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:23:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I suppose that if people keep drawing the same conclusions, there must be a miscommunication somewhere along the line, Aris. Please think about that. And you never answered my question, though that admittedly might have led to another debate . . .

Posted by The Doctor 2004-05-22 7:26:08 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:26:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Doctor> Since you asked it before I made my last post, and since you don't give an email I could reply to in private, I'll make this one exception of posting -- the thing I was proven right about was that it wasn't just the humiliation or even the sodomy claims, but that there were suspicious deaths in detention facilities. Aka this pic I provided yesterday of a man that is certificated to have died in his sleep - and ofcourse I was attacked for doing so. As usual

From this page: http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,grossbild-355611-300791,00.html

No more questions, no more answers, no more posts, no exceptions. You people have my email and my livejournal if you are interested in continuing any discussion.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-22 7:35:35 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:35:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Who gave you the pork chop Aris?

Zenster had it, then TGA, how did you get it?

Posted by Harpi 2004-05-22 7:36:02 PM|| 2004-05-22 7:36:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Once AGAIN, I shall have to state why I found his link in the previous day's post inadequate: The link is to an HTML page holding the photo and a bare comment, in german. No surrounding article, no pedigree, no link from the article to the supporting document. Der Spiegel, being German and Euro, would stand out if it had been pro-American. We know of two papers who rushed to publish "incriminating" photos that were later proved to be fakes, and this could be a third paper making false claims about a photo. The supposed claim that he "died in his sleep" would represent a cover-up, so why skip a link to the report, or discuss the circumstances of the report? Certainly, the "E25" ("E28"? )that appears looks genuine, but the text underneath looks very strange, like sort of a half script instead of normal block letters. For all we know, this could be one of Saddam's last victims, to be picked up and photographed by American forces as evidence, picked out of its context and pressed into lying service. C'mon, I'm supposed to trust Aris' "say so", blind, with no other support?

My problem is with the context. Or, to be more precise, the lack of context. Let's get real. This is a killer photo. Without a doubt it is damning and compelling, but certainly there's more context than just, what, a single sentence? I mean, wouldn't this be on the front page of every paper in the country if it was true? Why mince words? Why not assume there'd be doubt and write an article establishing its bonafides? My good opinion of American Military Justice rests on the internal checks and balances it has, and the (so far) stellar performance of the investigators. (Far from being "unchecked and uncontrolled") So far, THEY haven't minced words. IF this is a photo of a real victim of american military incarceration, then somebody needs to be hanged, and I believe that my fellow Rantburgers would agree with me. IF this photo is a photo of a real victim of American military incarceration, AND the investigators called it "dying in one's sleep from natural causes", then the INVESTIGATORS need to be seriously questioned, investigated, and punished if they were part of a cover-up. Its the failure of the "checks and balances" that would lend credence to the fear that our military forces are uncontrolled and unchecked. I don't pay my taxes to let my military run amok, but I want REAL evidence, not the assertion of known anti-americans who, unchecked and uncontrolled by Christianity, are not obligated to tell the truth.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-22 11:02:57 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-22 11:02:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Dear Lord, please let the phony picture be his last post.
(Do NOT tell me Katsaris lies even about posting his last!)

Posted by Jen 2004-05-23 12:34:25 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-05-23 12:34:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Actually, Aris was lurking, saw my comment, and sent an e-mail to me pointing out that the links pointed back to the article, along with a link HE SHOULD HAVE POSTED that pointed directly to the article. Didn't mention it HERE, of course. How unhelpful.

Posted by Ptah 2004-05-23 5:33:38 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-05-23 5:33:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Look back at comments #2 and #4 -- Aris is the one who picked this fight. Then he gets all holier-than-thou and "insulted", posts a photo from Der Speigel as "evidence", then leaves in a huff. Typical passive-aggressive horseshit.

Hey Aris, don't let the door hit your thin-skinned ass on the way out.

Posted by docob 2004-05-23 5:50:25 PM|| 2004-05-23 5:50:25 PM|| Front Page Top

17:50 docob
17:33 Ptah
09:22 Raptor
08:27 Billy Hank
05:25 ed
04:33 Mark Espinola
04:16 Jen
04:13 Jen
04:03 Mark Espinola
03:47 Mark Espinola
03:44 Mark Espinola
02:52 Zenster
01:42 Anonymous4617
00:34 Jen
23:39 muck4doo
23:24 Steve White
23:18 CrazyFool
23:15 Phil Fraering
23:05 Alaska Paul
23:02 Ptah
23:00 Alaska Paul
22:59 Atomic Conspiracy
22:54 Atomic Conspiracy
22:48 Frank G