Article

2004-05-18 Iraq-Jordan

Former Intel Staffer Says Army Concealed Abuse Scandal

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Posted by BigEd 2004-05-18 7:46:22 PM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I think you're paranoid, yes.
WMD have surfaced, yes: a grenade from the Iraq/Iran war. Even the US Army in Iraq doesn't think it is worth wile speaking about this grenade as being WMD (check the CPA website, you'll find nothing)

Posted by Fredje 2004-05-18 7:54:30 PM|| 2004-05-18 7:54:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 "Or am I paranoid?"

Yeah, you are. The thing about the Sarin gas happened AFTER the abuse scandal broke out, and many many months after the actual abuses occured.

Let's have a sense of time linearity here.

---

As a sidenote -- there was a chaplain at Gitmo some months ago that was first accused of holding sensitive info (aka possible espionage) in his computer, but then *those* charges got dropped and were transformed to charges of holding pornographical material. With the agreement that he'd remain quiet about the whole affair to reporters.

So far this is only guesses in the dark, but I've heard people wondering whether the pornographical material and the "sensitive" material were one and the same -- in short, depictions of similar abuses.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-18 7:56:08 PM|| 2004-05-18 7:56:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Fredje: WMD have surfaced, yes: a grenade from the Iraq/Iran war.

WMD grenades - a real handy thing to have around - deploy by throwing it, jumping into the nearest hole and kissing your ass goodbye.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-18 8:00:05 PM|| 2004-05-18 8:00:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 WMD have surfaced, yes: a grenade from the Iraq/Iran war.

Uh, no.

It was an 155mm artillery shell. I don't know how well you know metric, but 155mm is BIG. here's a picture of a 155mm artillery piece.

Hardly a "hand grenade", eh, spanky?

As to the importance the military gives it, well, maybe the CPA site doesn't have anything, but, damn, go to www.centcom.mil, and it's the first item on the page.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-18 8:08:09 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-18 8:08:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 AK: That don't make no sense. If you're going to prosecute the porn charges, then you have to introduce the evidence in a court-martial. Which would mean that the defense would demand that the porn images be introduced into evidence. Result: abuse photos in the public domain. If you wanted to cover up, you'd drop the porn charges and go for an administrative discharge. Get the guy out of the way and the proceedings (if any) can be sealed.

A little insight into US Military culture. "Morals" charges are usually only pursued in two circumstances. 1. You've pissed a lot of people off, they can't get anything else on you, and they want to blackball you (i.e. Kelly Flynn). 2. You're caught doing it red-handed on government property. I'm not saying that morals prosecutions aren't pursued for vendettas or by bible thumping commanders, just that 90% are in category one or two.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-05-18 8:22:53 PM|| 2004-05-18 8:22:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Aris--

"Let's have a sense of time linearity here."

Indeed. BigEd was specifically asking about "piling on..... occuring now".

Posted by Wuzzalib 2004-05-18 8:26:44 PM|| 2004-05-18 8:26:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Wuzzalib understands my point even thru the typos which happen when I get really pissed.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-18 8:36:32 PM|| 2004-05-18 8:36:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#8
It would be interesting to know the political leanings of this "Sgt. Samuel Provance" even though the military is non political.

Why did you put quotation marks around his name? Are you suggesting that his name is fake? Are you suggesting that "Sgt. Samuel Provance" is a liar? Do you think the name "Samuel" suggests he's a Jew? Do you think that's significant?
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-18 8:47:38 PM|| 2004-05-18 8:47:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Provance said Fay threatened to take action against him for failing to report what he saw sooner, and the sergeant fears he will be ostracized for speaking out.

In other words, Provance was involved and is throwing wolf meat to the press in an attempt to save his own ass.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-18 8:53:06 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-18 8:53:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Sylwester - I thouroughly resent your implicatons that I am anti-semitic . . far from it if you have seen any of my other postings here. My brother-in-law is Jewish. As to the quotes. Yeah. Is that really his name? I don't know . Is he a liar? Maybe. I think RC in #9 has a interesting theory though.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-18 9:06:23 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:06:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Aris - I bet if one of these was released at the Olympic stands you'd change your tune

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-18 9:19:09 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:19:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 If one of these grenades was released at the Olympic stands, I'd still think that it's absurd to think that the abuses are being revealed to coverup for WMD discoveries, especially since the current "piling on" occured before the Sarin thing.

Since I didn't comment otherwise on the Sarin thing, I don't see how I could change my tune on it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-18 9:23:05 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:23:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 BigEd: I apologize for my insinuation. I meant to extend your own "paranoid" insinuations along the line that paranoia often extends. I should have restrained myself.

#9: Another explanation is that Fay is trying to intimidate "Sgt Provance" to prevent him from disrupting the attempt to pin all the blame on seven "bad apple" enlisted military policemen.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-18 9:23:51 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:23:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I stand corrected, however it becomes apparent that the media and Democratic party (not so different over here) are perpetuating the story of abuses past all reason, simply because nothing else has had traction against W. Look for the backlash and media complaints against being "shot as the messenger"
I really fear for American athletes in your Olympics, and I expect the Greek security to fall short. I would really hope to be proven wrong
Frank G

Posted by Frank G 2004-05-18 9:28:40 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:28:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 I'm also worried. Never said I wasn't.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-05-18 9:49:30 PM|| 2004-05-18 9:49:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Interesting that Provance would speak to ABCetc against his commander's orders. Doubt a political ajenda, I'd guess there were some definite f*ck ups but nothing (until the supposed homicides are dealt with) too surprising other then the two drunk assholes who tried stripping that female iraqi epw - but even they were subdued by other MPs who were obviously doing the right thing. He claims definite intel coercion against the mp's to turn up the stress - I can see that scenario. However, much of his statement seems to be hearsay from intel bubbas and not much in the eyewitness department on his own behalf.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-18 10:01:38 PM|| 2004-05-18 10:01:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Aris: the point is that the leftist American press has a political agenda and is doing what is called, in the news business, "puffing" one story over another in order to turn the tide of public opinion in the direction the publisher-owners want it to go.

I'm sure you have a lot of that kind of manipulation going on in Greece, so you can relate.

The chemical weapons they're finding are important and newsworthy, but the press has been told to "puff" the abuse scandal at the prison, most likely in order to take attention off the finding of chemical weapons, so that public opinion will remain against the WOT and against the current administration.

The prison abuses were revealed already, before the discovery of the chemical weapons--not that they were revealed to take attention away from the WMD find--it's the extra, overblown, sensationalized coverage that's the give-away regarding the left's aims.

They do the same thing by NOT reporting on the good things happening with the Kurds, NOT reporting on the slavery/Islam problems, NOT reporting on the regular abuses of women and children which are condoned by Islam, and NOT reporting on the self-stated aims of the Islamic fundamentalists. These stories are all quite newsworthy, but aren't covered for political reasons. People forget the news outlets are businesses--out to make a buck. They do what they think will make them money, whether they're right or not.

That's the point BigEd was making.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-05-18 10:19:30 PM|| 2004-05-18 10:19:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Another explanation is that Fay is trying to intimidate "Sgt Provance" to prevent him from disrupting the attempt to pin all the blame on seven "bad apple" enlisted military policemen.

Doubtful.

If the sickos who did this were really following orders, they should name the person who gave them the order. Then they should explain why they forget their basic training classes about the laws of war and illegal orders.

There's also the little issue about Sivitz (sp?) saying that the officers had no idea what was going on, because they would have stopped it. Hard to square that testimony with the "they wuz framed" mindset, unless you want to declare the entire military justice system complicit.

Once you head down that path, you may as well claim the photos were actually taken by Rumsfeld while Rice called out directions.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-05-18 10:23:02 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-05-18 10:23:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#19
If the sickos who did this were really following orders, they should name the person who gave them the order.
They should and maybe they will. In the meantime, some have said that the photographs were staged and some have said they were directed by interrogators.

There's also the little issue about Sivitz (sp?) saying that the officers had no idea what was going on, because they would have stopped it.
I think Sivitz meant that the officers would have objected to the guards jumping onto piles of prisoners, stomping on toes, random punching, and other wild horseplay that he described.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-05-19 12:32:40 AM|| 2004-05-19 12:32:40 AM|| Front Page Top

13:58 Jarhead
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09:45 Robert Crawford
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00:32 Mike Sylwester
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23:12 Edward Yee
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22:52 Mike Sylwester