Article

2005-05-16 Home Front: Culture Wars

CNN about Newsweek: "People are dead because of what this son of a b. said."

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-05-16 06:33|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 What is a .swf file? Otherwise people are dead because of nutbag primitives. To blame the MSM plays right into the tranzi agenda. Do you really think we should curtail the media in order to appease these people? Because that is the issue.

Posted by phil_b 2005-05-16 07:57|| 2005-05-16 07:57|| Front Page Top

#2 Phil: If you want to simplfy the event and boil it all down to one goat, you would be right. The problem for me is that an American publication in a time of war had so little regard for the consequences of their own acts, such little regard for lives of both civilians and military, were so arrogant in running with a story, apparently uncorroborated and in pursuit of their own PERSONAL anti-Bush, anti-American agenda, that they chucked their own rules out the door. Newsweak essentially said, fuck everybody, we're running with this story. And so they fucked evryone and that included themselves.

Do you not think it is important what we say in our news/journalism activities? Do you not think that if this nation is to survive this war against terrorism that some element of our strategy must be preservesd and that the media is rightly at the front lines? Do you not think it is importasnt that we win the PR war, whcih we have been faring at poorly thanks to publications like Newsweak?

Way to go, Newsweak.

Posted by badanov">badanov 2005-05-16 08:09|| http://www.rkka.org]">[http://www.rkka.org] 2005-05-16 08:09|| Front Page Top

#3 Do you not think it is important what we say in our news/journalism activities? Yes, I do but appeasement solves nothing. Do you not think that if this nation is to survive this war against terrorism that some element of our strategy must be preservesd and that the media is rightly at the front lines? Absolutely, this is a battle of ideas. Do you not think it is importasnt that we win the PR war, whcih we have been faring at poorly thanks to publications like Newsweak? This is where we differ. This is not a 'PR war'. While spin and agitprop has a role, and may shorten or lengthen the war, it will not materially affect the outcome. This is about our system versus theirs. Places limits on our system in order to appease them or accomodate their system means we lose by a thousand cuts (the tranzi PC leftists agenda).

Posted by phil_b 2005-05-16 08:22|| 2005-05-16 08:22|| Front Page Top

#4 phil_b and badanov, I think you're both right. I had exactly the same reaction(s) -- contempt for the familiar arrogance, incompetence, and anti-American instincts of the media alongside contempt for the ignorant prejudice of significant parts of the Islamic world.

CNN didn't disappoint, however -- they "balanced" some surprisingly extensive coverage (that is, almost ANY coverage) by making their "confrontation" with Newsweek types fairly marshmallow-ish, and then following with a nauseating classic example of global media-sphere delusion in the form of a softball interview with Fawaz Gerges. He very self-consciously added "misperception" to his idiotic litany about "perceptions" in the Islamic world about the GWoT being in fact (yikes!) a "war on Islam."

But that didn't spoil the picture: one still heard the model sort of "interview" one gets from almost the entire world media, save one or two Fox hosts. Guest commentator parrots ludicrous reigning meme or conventional wisdom (US owes the Islamic world explanations, US owes Europe apologies for being the adult of the planet, US acts "unilaterally," blah blah blah), interviewer silently stipulates all of it and builds on it instead of challenging the premises.

Yesterday CNN-International (the one we see here at the Palace) also demonstrated some amusing "balance." A very well done piece by Ryan Chilcote reporting on an Iraqi security service recruitment center, and the Iraqis who still stream to these places despite the dangers of the job and even of the recruiting centers themselves, was "balanced" by the very next story: a long soft-ball piece on two American deserters in Canada.

When I focus on the fact that the media lost the election and also has been defeated in each of its strategic gambits for a few years running, I find these things hilarious. When I imagine what it would be like to have a non-morally imbecilic western media, specifically the concrete impact on saving lives and hastening our victories, I get furious and frustrated.

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-05-16 08:26|| 2005-05-16 08:26|| Front Page Top

#5 Someone remind me: there was a small bruhaha a while back about a fellow who put a crucifix into a jar of urine and called it 'art'. As I recall no one rioted and died, but I might have missed something.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2005-05-16 08:46|| 2005-05-16 08:46|| Front Page Top

#6
This is where we differ. This is not a 'PR war'. While spin and agitprop has a role, and may shorten or lengthen the war, it will not materially affect the outcome

Point taken with the PR not materially affecting the outcome. Where we differ is that the WoT is nothing if not a war of ideas. Organizations like Washington Post and Newsweak cast a disdainful glare and have since 911 on the WoT, admittedly not because they are traitors, but because of personal political agendas.

That is an element in this war: if you have the power for your word to be spread far and wide. If we cannot count on our own media to tell the truth; to at least tell all sides of the stories which they have dispassionately and venomously refused to do, then that essentially makes the public relations an immutable element in fighting terrorism.

Posted by badanov">badanov 2005-05-16 08:46|| http://www.rkka.org]">[http://www.rkka.org] 2005-05-16 08:46|| Front Page Top

#7 "Places limits on our system in order to appease them or accomodate their system means we lose by a thousand cuts (the tranzi PC leftists agenda)."

What is this "appeasement" stuff??? I don't think anybody gives a shit about "appeasing" Muslims or "accomodating their system". Newsweek lied to undermine the war effort by riling up ignorant Muslims.

And as for "tranzi PC leftists", that's exactly what the MSM are, and that's why they lie: so we'll abandon this war as hopeless, and get back to their agenda of pandering to parasites.

Posted by Dave D. 2005-05-16 09:03|| 2005-05-16 09:03|| Front Page Top

#8 Steve, we're a little different here. We just show Rodney King getting beaten or those who assaulted him get off in court and then a portion of our population plays the same game as the Swiftian yahoos in Afghanistan but in the streets of LA.

Posted by Jeper Elmeath5805 2005-05-16 09:29|| 2005-05-16 09:29|| Front Page Top

#9 While spin and agitprop has a role, and may shorten or lengthen the war, it will not materially affect the outcome.

Forget 'spin' or 'agitprop:' How's about telling the simple damn truth, the whole story. The truth helps our side in immeasurable ways.

Posted by badanov">badanov 2005-05-16 09:42|| http://www.rkka.org]">[http://www.rkka.org] 2005-05-16 09:42|| Front Page Top

#10 fine: the truth is, whether a koran was defaced or not, these idiots acted like ignorant savages.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-16 09:59|| 2005-05-16 09:59|| Front Page Top

#11 Dave D.

Not a lie by Newsweek since they believed their source. Of course they shouldn't have believed the source but that's another question.

Posted by mhw 2005-05-16 10:02|| 2005-05-16 10:02|| Front Page Top

#12 Jeper Elmeath5805, that statement makes no sense. You might want to try again.

There are a number of instances in which Christian or Jewish holy symbols have been desecrated in this world the last oh, ten to twenty years. None of those incidents have led to riot and murder. But again, I might have missed it.

Whereas, a unconfirmed statement by an unnamed source in an article in a news magazine causes Muslims in a number of places to riot and kill. I'm sure you have an excuse for this.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2005-05-16 10:04|| 2005-05-16 10:04|| Front Page Top

#13 badanov, the world would be much simpler if we could lay out the facts and reasonable men could consider them and decide what is true. Unfortunately, the world has never been like that and never will be. Its all about persuading people and my point was that some people are persuaded by the cheap gimmicks of spin and agitprop. Others require facts and logic. If spin works to persuade someone then I have no problem using it, even though it doesn't work with me and I have little respect for those it does work with.

regards

Posted by phil_b 2005-05-16 10:04|| 2005-05-16 10:04|| Front Page Top

#14 mhw - you assume there really is an unnamed source. We'll never know, will we?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-16 10:06|| 2005-05-16 10:06|| Front Page Top

#15 The truth helps our side in immeasurable ways.

That's the problem; the media doesn't want to do that, because they're basically on the other side.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-05-16 10:09|| 2005-05-16 10:09|| Front Page Top

#16 The Arab/Muslims had better thank Allah the we Christian act nice in the face of their barbarity. When the TERRORISTS took over the Church of the Nativity (A VERY CHRISTIAN HOLY PLACE) they desecrated bibles and the entire Church. I did not see a single city riot and kill muslims. Newsweek needs to smarten up and the Arab/Mulims need to grow up. Actually Newsweek need to be sued over this and be made to pay for the damage to US businesses they hurt overseas.

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-05-16 10:13|| 2005-05-16 10:13|| Front Page Top

#17 CS, thanks for the example, but I rather doubt Jeper Elmeath5805 is going to respond to that one.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2005-05-16 10:21|| 2005-05-16 10:21|| Front Page Top

#18 Cyber Sarge,
I was waiting to chime in on that point. The Church of the Nativity, by most reports I read, looked like the aftermath of a week long, heck month long, Grateful Dead concert.
Where was the appropraite outrage then?

Posted by Capsu78 2005-05-16 11:19|| 2005-05-16 11:19|| Front Page Top

#19 Steve's right. Even if someone had desigrated the Koran, I'm sure it was made to produce a profit for the book company. Especially if an American had it. Just a copy, not the true ONE. This makes them kill, but 40 some bodies found in Bagdad over the weekend, is'nt something to get to purturbed about.

Posted by plainslow 2005-05-16 11:21|| 2005-05-16 11:21|| Front Page Top

#20 Steve,
Each society or culture has their own 'triggers'. Just because we don't get excited over religion like the mobs in Afghanistan doesn't mean that there are issues that won't send elements of our society into the streets. Understand?

Posted by Jeper Elmeath5805 2005-05-16 11:34|| 2005-05-16 11:34|| Front Page Top

#21 Jeper Elmeath5805, Other than another Republican Victory (which will occur again) what might send Americans pouring into the streets on a rampage? Trust me if it didn't happen after 9/11 then there is litte chance of it happening in hte future. We don't get mad we get even (or better than even).

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-05-16 11:58|| 2005-05-16 11:58|| Front Page Top

#22 Smoking in restaurants.

Posted by Shipman 2005-05-16 12:46|| 2005-05-16 12:46|| Front Page Top

#23 CS,
Shall we look forward to another sporting event accompanied by rampage and looting afterward :)
Fortunately confined to locales with major colleges and franchise towns. The death count is lower, but the destruction seems to be as mindless and the cleanup as messy.

Posted by Jeper Elmeath5805 2005-05-16 13:19|| 2005-05-16 13:19|| Front Page Top

#24 Jeper Elmeath5805, Good example of stupid poeple rioting but off point. They were CELEBRATING a team winning, not attacking another race/ethnic group because of some percived ill. After Pearl Harbor Americans did not randomly attack people of Japanese decent even with documented proof of their aiding the enemy after that attack. And with some few execptions Arabs/Muslims were not targeted after 9/11 even after it was found that they were aiding the Terrorists. If a Christian/Jews sneezes on the wrong Muslim holy day they are in the streets chanting death to the world. To put it bluntly: THEY NEED TO GROW UP SOCIALLY!

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2005-05-16 13:58|| 2005-05-16 13:58|| Front Page Top

#25 Look, what's even more important right now is finding out who the "source" of this load of crap is.

That son of a bitch has the blood of 14 people on his hands every bit as much as the killers responsible for their deaths. He or she is not owed one single bit of protection as an "anonymous source".

I have to find somewhere where I as a subscriber (involuntarily....the hubby needs the English practice, so he subscribed) can demand that they reveal his or her name.

That is, if there even was a source and the reporters weren't just making the whole thing up......

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-05-16 14:18|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-05-16 14:18|| Front Page Top

#26 Jeper Elmeath5805, you're being deliberately obtuse. A riot after the Detroit Pistons win a championship isn't the same as a riot in Kabul because somewhere, halfway around the world, someone allegedly desecrated a Qu'ran. To make that comparison is to try to obscure the important point: if there really is to be freedom in the world, people are free to desecrate a holy book. Yours, mine, doesn't matter. People are free to do it without fear of being murdered in response.

I take it, Jeper Elmeath5805, that you consider yourself a 'liberal' person. Okay, take this test: obtain a Bible (try the drawer of a bedside table in a hotel room). Carry the Bible to the busiest intersection of your town. Make a couple of large signs announcing that you're going to set fire to the Bible. Set the signs up and wait a little bit to attract a crowd. Perhaps a TV crew will show up if you call them in advance.

Then set the Bible on fire, right there in public.

Watch the response.

I suspect: nothing much. You might catch a few heated words, a shaking head, you might end up being shunned by a few of your neighbors.

But you won't lose your life. And if anyone did assault you, the law would prosecute that person for doing so. You're protected, you see, you can express yourself however you wish.

You can burn a Bible. A Torah scroll. An American flag. No one will assault you.

But if you burn a Qu'ran, not only might you be murdered yourself, you'll set off riots halfway around the world.

Explain the equivalence of that to a sporting event.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2005-05-16 14:32|| 2005-05-16 14:32|| Front Page Top

#27 Have the president and Bill Clinton each pick a Senator they trust, and make the reporter give up the mane of the source, with garantees that his/her name will not be distributed, under penalty of law (I know big deal). We need to find out if the reporter made this up, o really had a source.

Posted by plainslow 2005-05-16 14:59|| 2005-05-16 14:59|| Front Page Top

#28 like that's gonna happen

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-05-16 15:53|| 2005-05-16 15:53|| Front Page Top

#29 Hey Jeper, what about this?

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2005-05-16 16:03|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2005-05-16 16:03|| Front Page Top

#30 I think that we need to find something more like a horse radish or somthing to rule the world

Posted by Unomp Ebbiter1146 2005-05-16 16:15|| 2005-05-16 16:15|| Front Page Top

#31 dont you want something good to eat like cashews or something like that instead of oranges or banannas??

Posted by my horse 2005-05-16 16:17|| 2005-05-16 16:17|| Front Page Top

#32 One of the quotes I read, I think from Karzai, said the rioters burned a mosque. Can someone explain that? One Mullah trying to increase his marketshare by taking out the competition? A shia mosque in the wrong part of town?

Are the knuckleheads invovled really that stupid that they can't tell a mosque from a church or temple?

Posted by rjschwarz">rjschwarz 2005-05-16 17:03|| rjschwarz.com]">[rjschwarz.com] 2005-05-16 17:03|| Front Page Top

#33 Via LGF and the Beeb, it appears that Loseweek has retracted the story.

Posted by Matt 2005-05-16 18:44|| 2005-05-16 18:44|| Front Page Top

#34 What difference does it make about how Westerners would react to a Bible or Torah being desecrated/burned in public? Where's the relevance to the current situation? The relevent point under discussion is how a primitive tribal Muslim society, whose country our GI's invaded and currently occupy, would predictably react to news of GI's desecrating their hallowed Koran. Every Westerner with 2 brain cells - yes even and especially Mr Izzikoff and Mr.Berry, journalsis at an internationally published journal, would know full well what the reaction would be to their article in Muslim countries.

Our country is at war. Our GI's have won military battles in Afghanistan and Iraq, but the big long range battle these GI's are now fighting, on our behalf (as well as on Berry's and Izzakoff's behalf)in the occupation period is the fight to win "hearts and minds" of Muslims.

These 2 news sluts used a single anonymous source - which is a highly unprofessional approach to reporting even ho-hum omestic "breaking" news stories much less reporting WOT related news which would have such far reaching ramifications. They should be charged with sabotage and Newsweek's owner should be fined BIG TIME. This was conscious, deliberate negligence of the highest order.

If you think Muslims are so pathetic, hopeless, barbaric, unredeemable, pray tell, what is the point of our sacrificing 1600 GI lives and paying $300 Billion to try to redeem these civilizations? Is this just a theoretical exercise that none of you think has any chance of working?

Blaming the Afghans for their reactions is like blaming 2 year olds for being sooooo stupid for burning their hands on a stove plate a parent deliberately left on high heat. The negligence of the adult who deliberately left the stove plate on to see what would happen cannot be excused. What the Afghans did was highly predictable as was the danger created for our GI's and the news sluts did what they did with malice and forethought and should be held accountable because they did it at a time of war. It's like being double fined for speeding through a construction zone. Izzikoff and Berry should have excercised extra care in their reporting at a time of war, particularly since they saw the emotional reactions of the Muslim world to the revelations of Abu Grau.

Posted by Hupinegum Ebbeans7299 2005-05-16 19:03|| 2005-05-16 19:03|| Front Page Top

#35 'Liberal' that's a good one.
Please reread the previous posting carefully, before you ASSUME anything.
Note as posted "...same game as the Swiftian yahoos in Afghanistan but in the streets of LA"
Is there any indication of approval in that? Or do you not understand Swift's portrayal of 'yahoos' as low troglodyte creatures merely in human form, debased animals that infest one of Gulliver's Travels. Hardly a positive spin.
Further posted "Each society or culture has their own 'triggers'" You take that as a statement of approval of the actions? You have to be reading into that cause it is not there. Its a simple observation of human behaviors. It neither justfies past, present nor future displays of irrational mob violence.
IMHO Newsweek is guilty of 'crying fire in a crowded theater' and has demonstrated the best use for American torte lawyers in years. Sick a dog on a dog.

Posted by Jeper Elmeath5805 2005-05-16 20:54|| 2005-05-16 20:54|| Front Page Top

#36 There ought to be some restitution. Maybe they could provide a free subscription to the family of the deceased.

Posted by Super Hose 2005-05-16 21:01|| 2005-05-16 21:01|| Front Page Top

00:06 trailing wife
00:01 Anonymoose
23:59 trailing wife
23:57 badanov
23:57 docob
23:56 Al Bundy
23:42 docob
23:41 trailing wife
23:40 .com
23:40 docob
23:34 .com
23:34 JosephMendiola
23:34 .com
23:32 Silentbrick
23:30 .com
23:26 docob
23:23 Atomic Conspiracy
23:23 John in Tokyo
23:20 Cluse Jiting2689
23:18 trailing wife
23:16 trailing wife
23:15 docob
23:12 trailing wife
23:07 Anonymoose