Article

2006-05-09 Iraq

Browne defends British Army shooting in Basra

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Fred 2006-05-09 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11124 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Although the crew trajically died from this melee, it could have developed into a sort of "Blackhawk Down" incident, and we all know how the US politicians handled that affair pitifully!! I can only hope that British Commanders were ready to go the distance in retrieving their troops, keeping that stiff upper lip! However I do recall never hearing of a British 'No Man Left Behind' resolve declared by their military!

Posted by smn 2006-05-09 02:42|| 2006-05-09 02:42|| Front Page Top

#2 Doubtful, for good or ill, that anyone was shot by British troops - more likely the rounds came from members of the Mahdi Army indulging in a frivolous display of gun-sex.

Posted by Howard UK 2006-05-09 03:33|| 2006-05-09 03:33|| Front Page Top

#3 "I sometimes think we've become entirely too civilized. In fact, I often think so."

Watch it with that kind of talk buddy, or I'll tell Fred. I'm thinkin' Sink Trap. :)

Posted by Chetch Slaviting1938 2006-05-09 04:05|| 2006-05-09 04:05|| Front Page Top

#4 Shades of Intifada#1.

Posted by gromgoru 2006-05-09 05:55|| 2006-05-09 05:55|| Front Page Top

#5 Nothing about war is civilized. War is the opposite of civility. However, it can be just. Our emasculated, politically-correct military (a direct result of our emasculated, politically correct leaders) is not allowed to strike decisively. That is not just, and will only result in the prolonging of the conflict, and the deaths of thousands more Iraqi children.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-05-09 09:03|| 2006-05-09 09:03|| Front Page Top

#6 60% of Iraq is Shiite arabs. Probably about one third of them are at least sympathetic to the Mahdi army. We DONT want that entire section of the population to rise against the govt. If we DO go to war with Mr Sadr, we will certainly try to avoid provoking the entire section of the population that is sympathetic. Killing an entire crowd, in which it was not possible to distinguish who had done what, while it might have satisfied some yearnings, would have been a strategic mistake.

The Brits, in their high imperialist era, where very sensitive to divide and rule. They knew exactly how much force they had available on the ground, and were very careful to modulate their political position to the force available. Thats why the kept muslim emirs in power in Northern Nigeria, for example. Ruled through an arab dynasty in Jordan and Iraq. Etc, etc. Fired colonial officials who too harsh on the locals. When force must be economized, youve got to be careful.

Now the American way of war, is to go in with overwhelming force. Including overwhelming boots on the ground - from US Grant to Omar Bradley.

Current SecDef wants a lean mean fighting machine. Very good, but that means when youre trying to keep order in a country of 24 million with 150,000 coalition troops, and when about half of the local friendly forces are probably NOT going to look kindly on the killing of 200 shiites in Basra, youve got to put your Jacksonian instincts aside.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2006-05-09 09:46|| 2006-05-09 09:46|| Front Page Top

#7 The British have a dangerous philosophy in dealing with Arabs. While they vigorously criticize the US for being indifferent to Arab culture, insisting on things such as freedom and democracy "that are not the Arab way"; they equate these traditional Arab ways as being the same, of equal value, to western values.

Unlike the raw racism of the American left, which despises and patronizes such people as inherently inferior, the British make the mistake of empathizing too much with what is wrong in Arab culture. Instead of fighting al Sadr as an enemy of democracy, they try to see "his point of view", as just one of many "points of view" in the Arab way.

In fact, the American "cowboy" approach is the right one. The vast majority of Iraqis prefer western values, such as democracy and freedom; they understand them, they comprehend them, they truly want to embrace them. Only the reactionary minority prefer dictatorship or theocracy.

Maintaining a romantic view of things may be an enjoyable pastime, but not when other people's lives and futures hang in the balance.

The days of T.E. Lawrence are done. Even the "noble Bedouin sheiks" are for the most part willing to cede their tribal authority for the greater good of their people and their nation. Even they grasp that freedom and democracy are the only sane future for their country.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-05-09 10:22|| 2006-05-09 10:22|| Front Page Top

#8 "Instead of fighting al Sadr as an enemy of democracy, they try to see "his point of view", as just one of many "points of view" in the Arab way."

Afaict, they are fighting Sadr in Basra at least as much as the US is doing so in Baghdad. This isnt about political strategy with regards to Sadr, so much as its about the rules of engagement in an incident. Fred is picking up on some frustration that some of the military has with ROE that still focus on hearts and minds. Shelby Steele and others on the right have been expressing this a lot recently.

AFAICT however this criticism misses the reality of counter insurgency warfare, and the larger political situation in Iraq and the region.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2006-05-09 10:53|| 2006-05-09 10:53|| Front Page Top

#9 Our bad men might have to be bad and discombobulate Sadre, it's dependant on the decisions made by the local commanders(with consultation) on the ground.

Posted by Tony Blair 2006-05-09 20:09|| 2006-05-09 20:09|| Front Page Top

23:36 Dorf
23:27 DMFD
23:22 DMFD
23:17 Rambler
22:56 RWV
22:47 SPoD
22:40 Frank G
22:38 JosephMendiola
22:35 Barbara Skolaut
22:35 trailing wife
22:30 Frank G
22:21 Manolo
22:20 ed
22:19 JosephMendiola
22:15 Manolo
22:11 ed
22:08 ed
22:08 JosephMendiola
22:08 tu3031
22:06 SPoD
22:06 Oldspook
22:06 Anonymoose
22:02 Oldspook
22:00 Frank G