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2004-05-07 Iraq-Jordan
Why were Iraqi detainee photos taken?
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Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-05-07 9:54:07 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Exactamundo. Psychological pressure on the notorious Arab male ego applied by an American female. Humiliation, embarrassment, loss of "honor", it's all part of the program.
Posted by mojo  2004-05-07 11:11:48 AM||   2004-05-07 11:11:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Didn't work at Nuremburg, won't work now.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-07 11:14:25 AM||   2004-05-07 11:14:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I think our erstwhile "dominatrix" may have a legitimate defense, but the people who ordered her to do this may be crackin' rocks in Leavenworth for a long time, even though this would certainly be effective form of psycological warfare under the circumstances. It is unfortuneate that this particular photo became public.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 11:19:06 AM||   2004-05-07 11:19:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Mr Davis - Nurmberg dealt with senior officials in the German Government, not a PFC on the bottom of a stack of Sergeants, Lieutennants, etc., etc. As long as she was not physically abusing these prisioners, I doubt if she will get jail time, though she will probably get a dishonorable discharge, which will keep her in that trailer the rest of her life.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 11:23:53 AM||   2004-05-07 11:23:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Mr. Davis: Didn't work at Nuremburg, won't work now.

For gassing millions of Jews, including women, children and seniors who were not combatants, yes. For humiliating Iraqi combatants to get life-saving information, maybe.

There was no military utility to killing millions of Jews that could not have been achieved some other way. Keeping them in detention camps as enemy aliens and requiring them to work for their upkeep? No problem. But killing them was where the line was crossed.

If what these soldiers did was for military purposes, coming down on them amounts to betraying them for doing what ultimately had to be done to extract useful information in a timely manner.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-07 11:29:48 AM||   2004-05-07 11:29:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 BigEd: I think our erstwhile "dominatrix" may have a legitimate defense, but the people who ordered her to do this may be crackin' rocks in Leavenworth for a long time, even though this would certainly be effective form of psycological warfare under the circumstances.

That's exactly the problem. There was significant pressure from up high to produce results, without any surefire method of getting these results. If conventional methods fail, as they surely must, against hardened terrorists, and American lives are at stake, harsh psychological and mild physical pressure may have to be applied. This is why Alan Dershowitz (an otherwise liberal lawyer who advocates torturing terrorists for information) pressed for explicitly defining the limits of pressure placed on captives implicated in terrorism - to avoid placing unfair blame on the lower level people responsible for getting us the information on a *timely* basis.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-07 11:35:45 AM||   2004-05-07 11:35:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I am now prepared to cut her a little more slack...In business or in the military, I scratch my head whenever I hear a 21 year old is romantically involved with a 35 year old. She was just the "monkey" in this mess, and I am more interested in putting a face on the "organ grinder".
And sorry Dem's, I know it ain't Rummy although today is going to be a quite painful day for him.
Posted by Capsu78 2004-05-07 11:39:14 AM||   2004-05-07 11:39:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Orders don't matter; you're not supposed to follow illegal orders. Considering the shitstorm, any orders she received appear to be illegal.

If she had been the one to get word up the chain of command about what went on, instead of the one posing and grinning, she wouldn't be facing punishment. To paraphrase an Indian Jones movie, "she chose... poorly".
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-07 11:50:34 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-07 11:50:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Robert Crawford: Considering the shitstorm, any orders she received appear to be illegal.

This is an after-the-fact judgment over fine legal points. It's pretty clear that gassing 12 million civilians is a war crime. I know of no law stating that posing with Iraqi detainees in humiliating circumstances is a war crime, and I've read a fair bit of military history.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-07 11:57:09 AM||   2004-05-07 11:57:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 And now, but of course, we have a Congressional Committee Hearing in progress in which Rumsfeld is expected to apologize.

As a result, there is an avalanche of TV.

And as a result of the TV coverage, we have much pontification and harrumphery. I believe the salary of US Senators & Representatives is $142K/yr. I would like to know why they receive this pay since they were notified 4 months ago by the Pentagon, but they ignored it.

The puffery / fluffery / grandstanding is disgusting. Warner (Moron/Va) and Levin (Moron/Mi), complete with his patented eyeglasses on tip of nose "image" (all the better to look down upon others, yet maintaining a "grandfatherly" persona - shift between as needed) are giving their introductory speeches which are lame rehashed hash by two-bit hack writers cashiered by Hollyweird for being, well, hacks. What a waste of time.

Rummy's now speaking. Takes responsibility, will see that it doesn't happen again (uh, oh), feels terrible, apologizes, inconsistent with American values, regrets harm to reputation of our Armed Forces, truly wonderful human beings, and to rep of the US. Anguish in DefDept when photos came in. Lauding those who blew whistle. ETC.

Now some female heckler is screaming at him - really got a pair of vocal chords, too. Now joined in chanting some drivel by cohorts. It's a real circus. Fox is cutting away until they are given their meds - in a DC jail cell, I hope. Ringling Bros and Barnum & Bailey.

Now Rummy continues without missing a beat. Sigh.

This is all obvious. This is all pointless, as a public forum and TV extravaganza. Pfeh.

"Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
Posted by .com 2004-05-07 12:10:07 PM||   2004-05-07 12:10:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 ZF -- Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Geneva, 27 July 1929:

Art. 2. Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or formation which captured them. They shall at all times be humanely treated and protected, particularly against acts of violence, from insults and from public curiosity. Measures of reprisal against them are forbidden.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-05-07 12:15:36 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-05-07 12:15:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 insults? they were not calling them names
their pride was certainly hurt, but that's not insulting.. be insulting if they said "Your mama was a goat" or some such.. meh ok that would be a compliment for those folks seeing as how women are dirt to them.. feh think up your own insult ;p

public curiosity? cnn made it public, gov had been investigating this quietly for 3 or so months.. maybe you should try cnn for war crimes...
Posted by Dcreeper 2004-05-07 12:21:16 PM||   2004-05-07 12:21:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 addem:
besides you are quoting the freaking geneva convention which does not apply.

geneva convention only applies when both sides follow it, when one side breaks the rules, then there are no rules
Posted by Dcreeper 2004-05-07 12:22:29 PM||   2004-05-07 12:22:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Now some female heckler is screaming at him - really got a pair of vocal chords, too. Now joined in chanting some drivel by cohorts. It's a real circus. Fox is cutting away until they are given their meds

.com : meds? I only have audio at work. Did the DC police have pepper spray after all?

Oh-oh here comes bagogas Levin.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 12:34:13 PM||   2004-05-07 12:34:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 We send these people oveseas to risk their lives to stop a threat to us. This is an important and dangerous task and with it goes commensurate authority. They get to kill and capture people using force. But with that authority comes individual responsibility for using force appropriately. Whether that was the case in each instance is for the Court Martial to determine.

The point of my comment is not whether it was a war crime or whether she is guilty but what constitutes a defence. "I was ordered to do it" doesn't cut the mustard unless she then informed the proper authorities which does not appear to be the case in her instance.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-07 12:34:32 PM||   2004-05-07 12:34:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Good point Dc. Our enemy in this war could care less. They arn't extra mad now and they will still cut our throats and steal our cars.

Dot, wonder how the hairy legged protester got access to these hearings. I just caught the last few seconds of the protesters being carefully sheparded out and thought I saw a poster being flashed. Sham.

Still would like to know who took the pictures and how they got out. WHO!
Posted by Lucky 2004-05-07 12:37:11 PM||   2004-05-07 12:37:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 There goes Bagogas Levin going after the CIA again. His heavy breathing is palpable.
Even if his point is valid - his motives are obvious.

i.e. Who told PFC English to hold that leash.

Next up John McCain. Ties situation into the Tillman story. Valid point.
Becoming testy over who was in charge of interrogation. JMc gets lots of slack on this. His been on the wrong end of interrogations.



Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 12:45:43 PM||   2004-05-07 12:45:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Cheif Bagogas Kennedy - his heavy of breathing is audible.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 12:49:20 PM||   2004-05-07 12:49:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Good - Rummy fighting back against Kennedy.
I wonder if leaving a girl in the back of your car to drown is abuse. Oops - off topic - - sorry
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 12:51:47 PM||   2004-05-07 12:51:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 If not there already, we are on the cusp of a real dilemma for the justice system: what is "real" and what is "doctored"? I've already seen some Photoshop work that is undetectable without zooming to the individual pixel level.

Asshat McCain is now playing tough guy in the TV show. He's pretending to be so reasonable and asking fundamental questions - and being exceptionally rude to everyone at the table, including Rummy, dismissing their answers. He must think he smells blood in the water.

Now asking what specific words were in the instructions to the guards about how to treat prisoners. As if Rummy was present when they were given their orders at morning rollcall. No respect given, yet demanding answers which no one at the table could possibly answer. McCain is being disingenuos and asinine. What a shithead.

McCain is on the other side - and playing his POW status for all it's worth. Mebbe he WILL join Skeery - it would fit behavior such as this.

Now Teddy K is pontificating. Claiming that Rummy / DefDept is responsible for deaths at Gitmo. Now saying Rummy had photos months ago (lie) and has spent weeks preparing PR plan. Right. Now posing "Do you still beat your wife?" question format. What did you know and when did you know it crap in his argumentative game talking over Rummy. Now Rummy straightening him out about the facts. Kennedy trying to butt in, Rummy ignoring him. This is witch hunt BS.

I'm going to change channels before I destroy my TV.
Posted by .com 2004-05-07 12:52:27 PM||   2004-05-07 12:52:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Oops, sorry BigEd. Fuming and typing at the same time - not paying attn!
Posted by .com 2004-05-07 12:53:40 PM||   2004-05-07 12:53:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 No prob .com -
Owing to history, I cut JMc a little slack, but why is that Bagogas Kennedy so full of righteous indignation.
Sen Roberts (R-KS) is taking the emotion down a notch. That is good.
God help us - here comes watch the Byrdie. Oh poor baby, he has Laryngitis, he he he.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 12:56:49 PM||   2004-05-07 12:56:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Saw / heard Byrd starting up his engine...

I've switched to Discovery Wings - gonna cover air war in Pacific WW-II. Much more interesting, IMHO! Carrier Battles at Guadalcanal & Santa Cruz...
Posted by .com 2004-05-07 1:00:38 PM||   2004-05-07 1:00:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I don't cut anyone any slack over his veteran's status when the issue being debated isn't his personal character. McCain has his heart in the right place on national security issues, but his words on this matter cut no ice with me - it's low-ranking soldiers at the bottom of the totem pole whose futures are at stake, not his.
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-07 1:01:15 PM||   2004-05-07 1:01:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Byrd sees fingerprinting and excuses?

Fingerprinting? Yes security is tighter now. where have you been Byrdie. Y'know too much Clorox on those sheets will make'em dissolve.

Byrdie is asking about the apology from GWB to the King of Jordan?

Um Senator ????

Byrdie's voice is cracking. Now talking about the International Red Cross. He's now babbling.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:03:41 PM||   2004-05-07 1:03:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Zhang Fei - McCain's time as a POW has an effect on his questioning in a case like this. It has to. So his attitude and questions have to be understood in that context. I think Rummy's response to him vs Kennedy or Byrd reflect that Rummy himself understands this.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:06:20 PM||   2004-05-07 1:06:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Allard (R-CO) Quiet calm.
Lieberman (D-CT) God! He's pissed. But not so much at Rummy, but at the hypocracy of this. No apology from those who have given us grief. Mentions Tillman, and a CT soldier killed.
Good for him.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:11:34 PM||   2004-05-07 1:11:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Dot, wonder how the hairy legged protester got access to these hearings.

Democratic staffer?
Posted by ed 2004-05-07 1:14:49 PM||   2004-05-07 1:14:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Sen Sessions (R-AL) Called Sen Lieberman courageous. Yeah, his "friends" Levin, Kennedy, and Byrd want to wring his neck.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:17:15 PM||   2004-05-07 1:17:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Anybody watching on TV? Did Kennedy or Byrd look angrily at Lieberman?
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:18:18 PM||   2004-05-07 1:18:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 all i know is mullet girl looking like she having good time in those pichurs.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-05-07 1:18:33 PM|| [http://petaenespanol.com/cinco/]  2004-05-07 1:18:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Reid (Pontificating Jackass-R I) Has his turn. More gas like Kennedy, Byrd, and Levin.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 1:22:11 PM||   2004-05-07 1:22:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 She had a mullet? Wonder if she ever had a Hemi.
Posted by Lucky 2004-05-07 1:26:53 PM||   2004-05-07 1:26:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Muck...a gal with a mullet - proper terminology is "fullet". Otherwise, it's like referring to a cow as a "female bull".
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-07 1:39:14 PM||   2004-05-07 1:39:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 This beats watching it on TV. (Not hard since the TV isn't hooked up to anything.)

Who is Mullet girl?

Is Rummy holding his own?

Will our country ever get serious about being at war?
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-05-07 1:46:25 PM||   2004-05-07 1:46:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Saw this debacle on CNN at the gym during chow time. McCain asking ridiculous questions to Rummy about shit no one in his position could answer for, McCain trying to be terse - he should know better. This is a joke - par for the course.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-07 1:55:41 PM||   2004-05-07 1:55:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 C_L : Rummy is doing fine. Gave it back to ol' Chappaquiddick pretty good. Nelson of Nebraska and Lieberman are the only two reasonable DEMs so far. No surprise.

Mullet-Girl : Though I don't think she has what is callet a Mullet hairdo. Is also known as "Dominatrix" the soldier, PFC English, who was holding the leash, and in other photos, mocking the naked Iraqis.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 2:00:02 PM||   2004-05-07 2:00:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Is Rod-Ham there? anybody see? I have audio only. She is on that committee. That should be interesting to see what strategy and approach she and Bubba have worked out in this situation.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 2:04:13 PM||   2004-05-07 2:04:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Never mind - Just heard she is there.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 2:06:45 PM||   2004-05-07 2:06:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Hillary is putting on her dour act.

Hillary is looking for signals. Smoke signals? Traffic signals? Semifore flags?

Her stomach is turning. She's the only one to know to have her stomach turn. The rest of us are incapable as her enlightenment.

What changes have been made? Especially to Rose Law Firm Billing records (oops different investigation)

Now she's crying about Muslim Chaplain Yee.
Yeah, he is sullied. Be a Wasabi Muslim, who want to take over the world by force and you get sullied.

Rummy is giving her enlightenness back as she gave it.

How could that classified report be well known. How do you know that, Senator?

YES SENATOR - HOW DO YOU KNOW?
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 2:25:56 PM||   2004-05-07 2:25:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 check out the 'grouchy old cripples' website and his views on the apolagies to the 'Arab Street', he seems to be spot on with his views,best rant i've read in ages, go check it,hell someone shuld post it up on here...
Posted by Shep UK 2004-05-07 2:35:03 PM||   2004-05-07 2:35:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Mullet Girl = PFC English

Ok I get it. I think she's a hottie. I like a woman who can mockingly point at the shriveled dick of a misogynistic bad guy. Or lead one around on a leash.
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-05-07 2:45:21 PM||   2004-05-07 2:45:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Classic Liberal, Love it! This lady soldier is now fast becoming a personal hero of mine!

And I'm not interested in why the photos were taken so much as WHO leaked them to the Lying Liberal Left media.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 2:49:05 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 2:49:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 PFC English is did nothing heroic. Get out of the echo chamber and THINK.

I like Lieberman AND McCain. But then you all knew that already.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 2:58:18 PM||   2004-05-07 2:58:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 get this straight people. PFC English, and her companions, and whovever up the chain is responsible, have by their actions, almost certainly caused the death of American servicemen, pro-American Iraqis, and probably even Indians, Israelis, and others. Theyre as bad for our side as Al Jazeera. Hell if you worked for Al Jizz you were DELIGHTED when this came out. Think about it.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:01:20 PM||   2004-05-07 3:01:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 LIE-berman and McCain are both "wild cards."
Even Dims know that "Whining Joe" can change his position even over issues of conscience at the drop of a hat for political expediency.
(Notice how they do not call him the "Conscience of the Senate" anymore?)
McCain is the Manchurian Candidate and only nominally a GOP, which is why the Left loves him (he's ideologically compromised) and he personally hates GWB.
This is a GOP Administration and I don't want either schizophrenic man as SecDef.
Rummy is solid.

You know how you can tell that an "issue" is horse shit?
The Dimocrats get all excited and start babbling about LIEberman and McCain!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 3:03:33 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 3:03:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Leibermans changed his positions, yup.

So have Cheney and Rumsfeld over the years. Dubya hasnt so much since he was basically a political novice when he ran for President.

McCain may hate Bush, but hes got damned good reason.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:10:52 PM||   2004-05-07 3:10:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Lieberman and McCain are both political whores.

And the President doesn't need a SecDef who hates him when this country is in Year #3 of a World War.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 3:13:03 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 3:13:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Liberalhawk: PFC English, and her companions, and whovever up the chain is responsible, have by their actions, almost certainly caused the death of American servicemen, pro-American Iraqis, and probably even Indians, Israelis, and others.

That's right - the atomic bombings of Japan and other air raids over cities that inflicted 0.6m dead caused the Japanese to rise in insurrection against the tyranny of the American people. Oh wait - didn't they surrender, after sacrificing hundreds of thousands of soldiers who fought to the death in every engagement? The slaughter of 2m German civilians via air raids certainly caused huge casualties among Allied occupying forces. No, wait - wasn't the occupation of Germany relatively calm - this in a courageous population that sacrificed 10m dead in WWII - or 100 times the total number of Iraqi casualties in this campaign?
Posted by Zhang Fei  2004-05-07 3:14:53 PM||   2004-05-07 3:14:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Lieberman doesnt have the needed background anyway. And I agree, McCain is out. So who do you think Bush will pick for SecDef. I hope its not Powell or one of his cronies, like Brent Scowcroft.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:15:19 PM||   2004-05-07 3:15:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 LH: You make a good point but I disagree with your assessment that those responsible are causing the deaths of anybody. To the jihadist, what we do is immaterial. They will continue to kill non-believers - period, because that is what they do.The only influence we currently have with them is the skilled application of firepower.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-07 3:18:21 PM||   2004-05-07 3:18:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 ZF - In case you dont remember, we had the USSR, UK, the Commonwealth, China, France, etc on our side then. The Germans in our zone were delighted to be occupied by us, and not the Russians. And the number of troops we used for those occupations FAR exceeded what we have in Iraq, by an order of magnitude.

If you think the GWOT situation is analogous in this regard to WW2 youre seriously misled.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:19:03 PM||   2004-05-07 3:19:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Rex - a guerilla must have a sympathetic population among whom to act. And WE need a sympathetic population to help build the new institutions that will drain the swamp.

Look, once again, if the draining the swamp is not the way to go, than Bush and his strategy is seriusly wrong. And if it IS the way to go, then this is a disaster. (its no picnic even if we arent draining the swamp, but perhaps less of a disaster)
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:21:58 PM||   2004-05-07 3:21:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Liberalhawk, WTF are you talking about???
Russia had the Eastern Front and their own goals and plans for securing as much of Europe as they could take by force.
The UK was there, but greatly weakened by the Battle of Britain.
China had their own battle with the Japs and later the Russians.
France was well, France, and not even a military player--bowed down by Vichy and militarily non-existent.

Guess you're not through with your DNC Seminar Poster Revisionist history, disinformation campaign, huh?

Rumsfeld stays or the White House will hear from me and lot of other Americans who love him and think he's doing an outstanding job.
Or don't you Tranzis want America and the Coalition to win this War?
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 3:26:37 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 3:26:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Jen - I don't put down L & McC as bad as you, but they are philosophically differen't than me. Also, Lieberman kinda stuck up for Rummy, in contrast to the Psirosis patient, and the Alzheimer's patient.

I think we must take a middle ground on PFC English. Apparently she was untrained on the Geneva Convention, and was apparently odrered to do what she did.

The biggest criminal is the leaker of the photos to the media. As this problem was known in January, the military would have had an easier time dealing with all the issues without having to deal with the noise from the left surrounding the photo release, and the extra harm posed to our folks there, in Afghanistan, and elsewhere.

However, PFC English could have said something that said, in effect, "They wanted me (as a woman) to hold a dog leash attached to a naked prisoner. Then they took this photo, to show to uncooperative prisoners, to shame them. Is this normal? "

I don't know who she could bring this up to if her immediate superior was also involved. Then there would be a Catch-22, I guess. The photos depict evil in the context they were shown, but what is the actual context of that specific photo, and some of the others?

If she was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time, as she has said, then she sure as hell set herself up to be a huge scapegoat.
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 3:32:41 PM||   2004-05-07 3:32:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 LH: Correctamundo on the sympathetic population, BUT - let's remember who those Iraqi prisoners are and WHY they are in prison. The Iraqi population we're talking about has just emerged from 30 yrs of horrific brutality. I would think that the population has some real perspective as result. We need to have some as well. That said, how we handle this is all important. We can't let ourselves dissolve into an orgy of handwringing. We need to get the whole story...punish those directly responsible (not some high ranking scapegoat a-la Rummy) and not let this deflect us from our mission. If we do that, our mission objective will speak volumes louder than the actions at Abu Ghraib.
Posted by Rex Mundi 2004-05-07 3:35:26 PM||   2004-05-07 3:35:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 Guys, I've seen these pictures and I'm not particularly shocked or outraged. Actually, I'm pretty sure that these guys don't realize what a good deal they've gotten. Here in San Francisco if you want to go out with your buddies on a Friday night get stripped naked, dressed in hooded black robes, and then humiliated by a chain smoking lesbian soldier you're going to have to pay $800-$1000 each per hour. Minimum.

And that's friend prices.
Posted by Secret Master  2004-05-07 3:39:57 PM|| [www.budgetwarrior.com]  2004-05-07 3:39:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 RM - i think, as ive said, we still need to deal with the arab world outside of Iraq. Im not sure how this plays with the various groups in Iraq, though I have my guesses.



Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:44:29 PM||   2004-05-07 3:44:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Rex: I'm with you. As regards the truly bad guys, how we conduct ourselves in this matter is irrelevant. Other than what we've seen so far probably confirms their view of us as a decadent and unserious people. The notion of winning hearts and minds in the court of Arab public opinion is farcical. That's a kangeroo court and we won't find any justice in that zoo. Our military needs to clean house and ensure workable policies on how to deal with an unconventional enemy during a WAR. I have faith that they are up to the task. Holding congressional hearings on the matter is a guarantee of a partisan freak show. My concern is that this will lead to unecessary restrictions on how our men and women in uniform prosecute this war. (We are agreed that we are at war, aren't we?)

LH: You are starting to hyper-ventilate buddy. Take a couple deep breaths. This will all blow over and we'll be onto a new set of atrocities in another week or two. Personally, I'm rooting for the final smackdowns in Fallujah and Najaf.
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-05-07 3:44:42 PM||   2004-05-07 3:44:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Exactly, Rex Mundi!
(I pray to God we don't blow it!)
The Enemy can't defeat us on the battlefield, but they can do it this way, rendering us into that "paper tiger" they always said we were.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more effective I think this sexual humiliation was.
It's a brilliant tactic...and now because of this brouhaha, we can't use it anymore to subdue the enemy!
Damn! Are we at war or not?
And will the lady soldiers have to treat enemy prisoners as if they are stewardesses now, politely offering them tea, cookies and hot towels?
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 3:52:01 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 3:52:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 
Actually, the more I think about it, the more effective I think this sexual humiliation was. It's a brilliant tactic

So does everyone else here agree with this?
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 3:54:37 PM||   2004-05-07 3:54:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Jen - Stewardess with tea, cookies, and hot towels sounds good. But PSA went bankrupt 15 years ago. That kind of treatment is a lost art.

Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 3:58:24 PM||   2004-05-07 3:58:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Guys, I've seen these pictures and I'm not particularly shocked or outraged.

Buddy of mine says when he saw the photos, his first thought was, "Looks like Mapplethorpe". He thinks the press has got it all wrong. Take the guy on the box with the electrodes, for example. He's actually posing as an Iraqi christmas tree. His suggestion was that rather than passing these photos to the press, the leaker(s) should have applied for a NEA grant and put on an exhibition at the MOMA. Would have been a huge hit with the arts & society crowd.
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-05-07 3:58:45 PM||   2004-05-07 3:58:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 CL, ROFL....no kidding!
What's the even kinkier art prize over in the UK? The Saatchi or Turner or something?
These pics would have gotten a big show at the Tate Modern..and still might!
Mapplethorpe's were far worse.
As an Art Historian (in my pre-9/11 life), I couldn't view Mapplethorpe's Gay S&M stuff without retching!
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 4:01:51 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 4:01:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 No disrespect intended but it's time for the active duty mil opinion:

1) Let the mil courts complete their investigations and those who need to be disciplined will be. I've found our system to be pretty fair and consistent.

2) Please knock off the sky is falling b.s. Those who hate us still hate us, this as someone else put it, is immaterial. Those who are allied w/us will remain so.

3) I've listened to 4 different Arab journalists today - all said that Bush's address to the "street" was met w/satisfaction by the skeptics and typical disdain from those who are already hostile. Par for the course.

4) The average arab, used to govt abuse is actually confused seeing Bush address them over something most consider quasi-routine. This is according to the same arabs above.

5) There's more to this then meets the eye. Specifically, who were these prisoners? Were they inmates or true pow's? Were they insurgents not in uniform when caught? Get all the facts before we start slinging arrows and some young soldier prolly doing what she was told - humiliation is different then physical abuse. I've worked at Parris Island, I know the difference.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-07 4:04:42 PM||   2004-05-07 4:04:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Psirosis patient, and the Alzheimer's patient

In case I was unclear earlier, I am refering to Teddy Kennedy and Robert Byrd
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 4:05:50 PM||   2004-05-07 4:05:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Jarhead:

Thank you for talking some sense. And thank you for your service. We appreciate it.
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2004-05-07 4:13:22 PM||   2004-05-07 4:13:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 I think LH is making pretty good sense. The WoT has two main components (1) killing (and otherwise incapaciting, e.g., financially) bad guys (2) draining the swamp/war of ideas. A lot of R'bergers are forgetting the second part. Rummy, Bush, etc. argue that, over the decades to come, we have to try to cure the insanity in the middle east that is expressed as terrorism against us. They are right. Iraq is important (among other things) because establishing a democratic, non-theocratic government in the mideast hopefully will start a domino effect. Democracies are not hospitable places for the spread/nurture of fanaticism. Abu was a big defeat in the war of ideas. Those who would abandon that part of the war by saying "they will always hate us, no matter what" are not thinking long term. Of course some hearts and minds only want to kill americans. Those hearts and minds deserve and should recieve bullets. But we should try to make it possible for moderate muslims to emerge as leaders who can stem the flow of retardedness coming from the madrasses. Abu makes that harder.
Posted by sludj 2004-05-07 4:19:01 PM||   2004-05-07 4:19:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 Amen, CL!
Thanks for your service, Jarhead and any other of our military or ex-mil who are reading this!
We support you and appreciate you for defending our Freedom and our Security and know that 99% of you are good, decent and compassionate people.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 4:19:33 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 4:19:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 If the photos had not come out the way they did, how much use would the photos have been in re: psycological warfare on Baathists oir Jihadis? Jarhead-your thoughts? Anyone?
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 4:20:24 PM||   2004-05-07 4:20:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Sludj, I don't think many here disagree with the point that the Abu issue is a detriment to our winning hearts and minds in Iraq/the Arab world. It sucks that it happened. However, it is possible that the response to the situation may convert more people than the incident itself alienated. To your point, I think what most here are saying is that Firing Rumsfeld over this incident would do nothing to improve that hearts and minds campaign.
Posted by remote man 2004-05-07 4:25:35 PM||   2004-05-07 4:25:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 In the house hearing they have just acknowledged that the abuse of prisoners happened "between 22.00 and 04.00". Boy , brings new meaning to the term "night shift"
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 4:26:09 PM||   2004-05-07 4:26:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 RM. I agree. A lot of people are saying it was wrong for Bush to apologize and that it is wrong for us to self-flagellate over the issue because we don't get any credit for it from the arabs anyway. But, despite the quotes that CNN/Reuters/BBC love to broadcast of arabs who reject the apologies and say that our process now doesn't matter, I do believe that a lot of arabs are seeing what the US is doing, and--although they would not admit it to a western reporter--wish they had a government that was as honest and responsive.
Posted by sludj 2004-05-07 4:34:10 PM||   2004-05-07 4:34:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 A lot of R'bergers are forgetting the second part. Rummy, Bush, etc. argue that, over the decades to come, we have to try to cure the insanity in the middle east that is expressed as terrorism against us. They are right

yeah. I've been listening to Rummy over the years, and he convinced me. Im more loyal to Rummy's ideas, than to Rummy.

JH - good, i hope what you heard about the reaction in the arab world pans out. Thats the key.

To all - im still concerned, that, despite, the positive news from JH, the admin seems to think we DO need to appease the arab street. Witness again the backtracking with the Palestinians. If we see more of that, or if we roll over for Brahimi (and mind you, Kerrys unwillingness to express the problems with the UN is one of the reasons im not now supporting him) I will be very concerned.

Its all well and good to shout how youre against appeasement. But I fear this admin is much more willing to appease on Policy, while standing behind personnel.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 4:38:30 PM||   2004-05-07 4:38:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 LH--I'm truly beginning to think that you're a Seminar Poster.
I've never heard such drivel!
This Administration is neither backtracking on policy nor its "personnel!
And we haven't "backtracked" with the Paleostinians although I'm not sure what you're implying, but I'll bet you're hinting that Bush "went back" on his word to Sharon by what he said to "King" Abdullah yesterday.
He didn't. Ask around.
Posted by Jen  2004-05-07 4:45:25 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-05-07 4:45:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 LH: You've got no argument from me on your last post, especially with regard to Brahimi. There was a collumn on NRO the other day that took the CPA to task for sucking up to Brahimi. The blame fell mostly on the State Dept types who think our being in Iraq is wrong in the first place. I don't think they are loyal to either the president's or Rummy's ideas. That said, I do think things are settling back down. Al Sadr is losing support quickly, Fallujah is less and less an issue, although clearly still not resolved. The less hyperventilating by all involved the better we will be able to prosecute this war. Of course this means less traitorous behavior on the part of the press and certain Dems so maybe I am hoping for too much.
Posted by remote man 2004-05-07 4:47:05 PM||   2004-05-07 4:47:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 LH:

re :remote man's post -I do think things are settling back down. Al Sadr is losing support quickly, Fallujah is less and less an issue, although clearly still not resolved

Witness al-Sadr's ludicrous pronouncement about "If you catch a British woman soldier, you can keep her a a slave."

That sounds like someone trying to hold onto dwindling support. . .
Posted by BigEd 2004-05-07 4:55:35 PM||   2004-05-07 4:55:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Rm - I read that column too, but, well you know, NRO is run by a bunch of idiot lefty tranzies who want fat Ted Kennedy in charge - why else would they run something critical of the Bush administration? and heck, theyre moderates compared to the absolutely wild lefties at the Weekly Standard - of course they like McCain, who's crazy, so maybe theyre all crazy too.

Its freaking hilarious how you can get called a lefty for expressing many of the same concerns expressed (with a twist, I'll admit, though not much of one) as the most respected conservative and neo-conservative voices in the WOT. The folks who do that kind of copping dont strike me so as conservatives or hawks of any kind, but as Stalinists. Toe the line, support EVERY change in policy, any criticism from ANY perspective and youre with the ideological enemy.
Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-05-07 5:02:09 PM||   2004-05-07 5:02:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Perhaps he remembers her
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-05-07 5:02:19 PM||   2004-05-07 5:02:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 CL/Jen> my pleasure to serve - no thanks necessary but much appreciated.

BigEd> I was thinking yesterday that maybe some pictures were going to be sent to certain detainees homes or neighborhoods or most likely as a threat as such to get info. The best blackmail for the islamo-mysogynist - Kind of like, "tell us what you know Samir or your boys back in Fallujah are gonna know what a bitch you are when they see you on a choke chain buck-naked led around by a little white female infidel." Plausible idea I think but am still waiting for more info.

I have also heard about civilian interrogator-translator teams in the mix - I am interested in the extent of this as well. The big thing is how much info they (DOD) classifies and what is released to us.

Plus, over what amount of time did this happen? Right after that prison riot or over months? May not seem like a lot to the lay person but to the tactical/psyop minded means more. Kind of like retaliation by the guards so no more uprisings occur - sounds plausible to me but hell, I wasn't there so who knows until prolly 6 months from now when more comes out. Bottomline - we need to stay the course - were there now - let's finish it right.
Posted by Jarhead 2004-05-07 5:43:29 PM||   2004-05-07 5:43:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 He LH if you think that I was calling you a lefty or something in my last post, I wasn't. Not sure where you were going with your rant there. Only thing I've taken issue with is your recc to can Rumsfeld over Abu Ghareib.
Posted by remote man 2004-05-07 5:58:49 PM||   2004-05-07 5:58:49 PM|| Front Page Top

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