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2005-04-16 Afghanistan/South Asia

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Posted by Steve White 2005-04-16 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Amazing folk these 'rebels'.
Someone born in another country (Pakistan) can leave Pakistani Punjab and enter India. He then becomes a 'rebel' against the Indian state (to which he owes no allegiance being a foreigner).

Posted by john 2005-04-16 8:51:47 AM|| 2005-04-16 8:51:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 This is how the Pakistan newspaper Dawn reports the AFP story

SRINAGAR, April 15: Nine people, including three wanted commanders, were killed in various parts of occupied Kashmir during raids by Indian troops on Friday, the army said.

Soldiers killed four freedom fighters in a raid on their hideout in Budgam early on Friday, an army spokesman said, adding that a civilian had also died during the exchange of fire.

"Three of the slain militants were wanted commanders from the hard line al Badr group, including group's chief commander General Omar," he said. Four houses and three cowsheds were destroyed during the fighting, residents said.

Another freedom fighter was shot dead in a separate raid by Indian troops in the Kulgam area, the spokesman said. "Both clashes erupted when troops raided the hideouts on tip-offs," he said. Police said a soldier and a militant were killed in another clash at a militant hideout in Rajouri area. Suspected Mujahideen shot dead an alleged army informer in Baramulla. -AFP

Posted by john 2005-04-16 11:03:57 AM|| 2005-04-16 11:03:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 well, they are fighting against freedom..

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-16 11:12:58 AM|| 2005-04-16 11:12:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 In the beginning, the struggle of Kashmiris to attain their right of self determination was indigenous. After the end of Afghan war, its ranks were infiltrated by foreign Mujahideen as well as Pakistani elements. Both of them shared hateful Wahabbi ideology. From then on Kashmiris struggle took a negative, destructive turn, resulting in the killings and rape of Kashmiri women by the so called freedom fighters.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 11:26:19 AM|| 2005-04-16 11:26:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Terribly sad .

Kashmir is one of the most beautiful places in the world . I seriously doubt I will ever get a chance to visit again in my lifetime .
Closest I have gone in recent years is the Indian state of Himachal Pradesh .

I still wonder and hope that any of my old friends are safe and well , but I seriously doubt it .

Religion of Peace , my arse .

Posted by MacNails 2005-04-16 11:41:35 AM|| 2005-04-16 11:41:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Dear MacNails ,
I share your feeling of sadness and dismay at the situation of Kashmir.However, I can assure you that things are totally different on the Pakistani side of Kashmir.Presently,I do not live there,but If you decide to visit that part of Kashmir,I would be delighted to facilitate.
Best regards.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 12:11:57 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:11:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Kashmiris do have 'self determination'
http://inhome.rediff.com/news/2005/apr/06arvind.htm

You are confusing self determination with independence.
Kashmiris have no 'right' to independence just as Texans do not (the US supreme court has ruled that secession is unconstitutional (Texas v. White)

Kashmiris have more rights than most folk throughout the world.

For example, there is representation without taxation. They can send representatives to the Indian parliament but taxes levied by said parliment do not apply unless the Kashmiri legislature approves them.

Non-kashmiri resident Indian citizens are barred from owning land in Kashmir. This provision of the Indian consitution protects the demographic character of the state and prevents the local poplace from being swamped by outsiders.

How many folk in, say, California, would love to restrict outsiders in such a manner.

Posted by john 2005-04-16 12:20:20 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:20:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Of course the Pakistani side is peaceful. You don't defecate in the same place you sleep. The state sponsored jihadi terrorist base camps are there.

There has never been an election in the Pakistani part of Kashmir. Pakistanis love to talk about self determination but they cannot even choose their own president in democratic elections

Posted by john 2005-04-16 12:23:50 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:23:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 muslim for peace: educate yourself a little about Kashmir

http://www.indianembassy.org/policy/Kashmir/kashmiraccession.htm

http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/22arvind.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/15arvind.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/10arvind.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/jul/02arvind.htm

Posted by john 2005-04-16 12:36:28 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:36:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Instrument of Accession

Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as INDIA, and that the Government of India Act, 1935, shall, with such omission, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor-General may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India,

And whereas the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adapted, by the Governor General provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof :

Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahander Rajrajeshwar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji Jammu and Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbet adi Deshadhipathi, Ruler of Jammu and Kashmir State, in the exercise of my Sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession; and

1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the Governor-General of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall, by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir (hereinafter refrred to as "this State") such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th Day of August 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter refrred to as "the Act").

2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to provisions of the Act within this State so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.

3. I accept the matters specified in the scheduled hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make laws for this State.

4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor-General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this State of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of this State, then any such agreement shall be deemed to form part of this Instrument and shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

5. The terms of this my Instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.

6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorising the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense, or, if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief justice of India.

7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into arrangement with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my Sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this State.

9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors.

Given under my hand this 26th day of October, nineteen hundred and forty-seven.

Hari Singh,
Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.

Acceptance of Accession by the Governor-General of India

I do hereby accept this Instrument of Accession.

Dated this twenty-seventh day of October, nineteen hundred and forty-seven.

Mountbatten of Burma,
Governor-General of India.

Posted by john 2005-04-16 12:38:05 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:38:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes, religion of peace...

"More then 13,600 civilians lost their lives in the last fourteen years."

"Of these, 10,000 were killed by terrorists. The rest lost their lives when they got caught in the crossfire between the militants and the security forces," he said.

He lambasted the Pakistani president for not mentioning the figure of the security personnel killed in terrorist violence.

"We have lost 3,600 personnel of the security agencies."

"We have killed more then 16,700 terrorists in various operations, more then seventy per cent of them foreigners," he added.

He gave a detailed list of the arms and ammunition seized during anti-terrorist operations.

"We have captured 25,000 Kalashnikovs, 325 sniper rifles, over 1,000 machine guns, 1,800 rocket propelled grenades, 4,000 rocket launchers, 10,000 mines and 4000 wireless sets."

In addition to this, we have seized over 50,000 hand grenades, thirty tonnes of explosives and 7.5 tonnes of RDX," the former governor said."

http://in.rediff.com/news/2003/jun/15pak.htm

Posted by john 2005-04-16 12:56:41 PM|| 2005-04-16 12:56:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 The illegality and fake character of the so called Instrument of Accession has been established by Professor Alistair Lamb , renowned Historian , in his famous book on the subject of Kashmir.
I am not a Kashmiri and also do not favor the stance of either India or Pakistan .Both of them have their own stakes in Kashmir . It is the people of Kashmir who are suffering since 1947.
If East Timor, a much smaller entity can become an independent state , why not Kashmir , with so much tourism income?
It is high time that a referendum should be held to determine the free choice of Kashmiris.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 1:10:14 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:10:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 muslim for peace

"Presently,I do not live there,but If you decide to visit that part of Kashmir,I would be delighted to facilitate."

How would you facilitate?

Posted by Ulaique 2005-04-16 1:25:26 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:25:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 tickets on the "peace bus"?

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-16 1:28:42 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:28:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Since I belong to Pakistan, I can facilitate the visit through my friends there.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 1:29:14 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:29:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 no thanks

Posted by Daniel Pearl 2005-04-16 1:31:15 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:31:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I would facilitate through my friends there.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 1:32:07 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:32:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 No westerner is safe either side of the line of control , even if they have friends there (hence I havent been back) . Such is the blind hatred of the agressive Muslim terrorists supported by Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence Agency.

And just for the record , my friends are Hindu's , no doubt persecuted into oblivion in that region .

The basic Kashmiri wants peace above all else , but the 'ye olde Islamic fruitcakes' dont .

I revert back to my original statement 'Religion of Peace , my arse '

Oooh and a small note ,the Pakistani security services *cough,splutter* Lieutenant-General Mahmoud Ahmad was dismissed from his post after it became clear that he had been involved in transferring $100,000 to the account of Mohammed Ati, one of the organizers of the September 11th terrorist attacks in the USA.

Safe place to visit ? Nahh .

I think I'll just stick to hoping my friends havent been murdered by a Pakistani based terrorist retard with less i.q. than a turd.

Posted by MacNails 2005-04-16 1:57:14 PM|| 2005-04-16 1:57:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Islam has been hijacked by Wahabbi thugs ,who rule in Saudi Arabia and thru their supporters in various Muslim states,notably Pakistan.IF ISI Chief was dismissed ,why he is not in Guantanamo Bay? Things are not that simple! For the record I do not like ISI.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 2:14:54 PM|| 2005-04-16 2:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Fake?

A document signed by Lord Mountbatten, the former Viceroy of India, Supreme Allied Commander Southeast Asia Command) WWII and cousin to the present British Queen?

The IRA murdered him in 1979.
Before his death, did he say that the document was faked?

Please read this
http://in.rediff.com/news/2002/jan/15arvind.htm

"Was the Instrument of Accession that Hari Singh signed "fraudulent" as averred by Pakistan's foreign ministry? Now, as Dr A S Anand, India's ex-chief justice, has argued in his book The Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir (Universal Law Publishing Co Ltd, 1998), "fraud" is to cause a person to do something to his detriment or to another's advantage by deceit. But there was absolutely no evidence of any deceit practised by India. Further, says Dr Anand, if by fraud it is meant that the Government of India should not have accepted the accession unless it had been endorsed by the people of J&K, well, the Government of India had no authority to question the maharaja as he alone had the right and power to take a decision for his State.

It is a small mercy that, unlike the so-called historian Harry Alastair Lamb and some recent Pakistani journalists -- to whom India's oh-so-secular English newspapers generously extend the premium space of their op-ed pages -- Pakistan's ministry of foreign affairs hasn't doubted the very existence of this Instrument of Accession.

To pre-empt that eventuality in future, let it be mentioned here that the BJP Today magazine of August 1-15, 2001, reproduced in its entirety a copy of the Instrument of Accession with blanks duly filled in and signed in Maharaja Hari Singh's own handwriting dated October 26, 1947. What's more, India's external affairs ministry has reportedly distributed its copy to every news organisation. "

Posted by john 2005-04-16 3:50:45 PM|| 2005-04-16 3:50:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Why is Ahmad not in gitmo?
The same reason that AQ Khan (nuclear walmart) isn't.
Musharraf is protecting him.

Osama Bin Laden and Pervez go way back.
They are mass murdering buddies.

http://membres.lycos.fr/tthreat/musharraf.htm
"In May,1988, the Shias, who are in a majority in Gilgit, rose in revolt against the Sunni-dominated administration. Zia put an SSG group commanded by Gen. Musharraf in charge of suppressing the revolt. Gen. Musharraf transported a large number of Wahabi Pakhtoon tribesmen from the NWFP and Afghanistan, commanded by bin Laden, to Gilgit to teach the Shias a lesson. These tribesmen under bin Laden massacred hundreds of Shias."

http://www.saag.org/papers9/paper810.html
" Faced with a revolt by the Shias of the Northern Areas (Gilgit and Baltistan) of Jammu & Kashmir (J&K), under occupation by the Pakistan Army, for a separate Shia State called the Karakoram State, the Pakistan Army transported Osama bin Laden's tribal hordes into Gilgit and let them loose on the Shias. They went around massacring hundreds of Shias--innocent men, women and children."

Posted by john 2005-04-16 4:00:20 PM|| 2005-04-16 4:00:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I dislike both ISI and Musharraf.
The pertinent question is who is protecting Musharraf ?

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 4:44:49 PM|| 2005-04-16 4:44:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 USA of course.
He is the "loyal ally in the war on terror", soon to be given 70 nuclear capable F-16 (block 52) fighters as a reward.

Given that Pakistan transferred one of its previous F-16s to the Chinese for reverse engineering, the boys in Shanghai must be waiting expectantly.

Posted by john 2005-04-16 5:01:09 PM|| 2005-04-16 5:01:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 I don't understand why you, as a pakistani, dislike Musharraf.

He is the perfect pakistani leader, in the very image of MA Jinnah.
The Pakistan of today is the state bequeated by MA Jinnah.

The following is an extract from a 1949 book by Margaret Bourke-White.

You may find it instructive

http://iref.homestead.com/Messiah.html
The Messiah and The Promised Land
Margaret Bourke-White was a correspondent and photographer for LIFE magazine during the WW II years. In September 1947, White went to Pakistan. She met Jinnah and wrote about what she found and heard in her book Halfway to Freedom: A Report on the New India,Simon and Schuster, New York, 1949. The following are the excerpts:

Pakistan was one month old. Karachi was its mushrooming capital. On the sandy fringes of the city an enormous tent colony had grown up to house the influx of minor government officials. There was only one major government official, Mahomed Ali Jinnah, and there was no need for Jinnah to take to a tent. The huge marble and sandstone Government House, vacated by British officialdom, was waiting. The Quaid-i-Azam moved in, with his sister, Fatima, as hostess. Mr. Jinnah had put on what his critics called his "triple crown": he had made himself Governor-General; he was retaining the presidency of the Muslim League -- now Pakistan's only political party; and he was president of the country's lawmaking body, the Constituent Assembly.

"We never expected to get it so soon," Miss Fatima said when I called. "We never expected to get it in our lifetimes."

If Fatima's reaction was a glow of family pride, her brother's was a fever of ecstasy. Jinnah's deep-sunk eyes were pinpoints of excitement. His whole manner indicated that an almost overwhelming exaltation was racing through his veins. I had murmured some words of congratulation on his achievement in creating the world's largest Islamic nation.

"Oh, it's not just the largest Islamic nation. Pakistan is the fifth-largest nation in the world!"

The note of personal triumph was so unmistakable that I wondered how much thought he gave to the human cost: more Muslim lives had been sacrificed to create the new Muslim homeland than America, for example, had lost during the entire second World War. I hoped he had a constructive plan for the seventy million citizens of Pakistan. What kind of constitution did he intend to draw up?

"Of course it will be a democratic constitution; Islam is a democratic religion."

I ventured to suggest that the term "democracy" was often loosely used these days. Could he define what he had in mind?

"Democracy is not just a new thing we are learning," said Jinnah. "It is in our blood. We have always had our system of zakat -- our obligation to the poor."

This confusion of democracy with charity troubled me. I begged him to be more specific.

"Our Islamic ideas have been based on democracy and social justice since the thirteenth century."

This mention of the thirteenth century troubled me still more. Pakistan has other relics of the Middle Ages besides "social justice" -- the remnants of a feudal land system, for one. What would the new constitution do about that? .. "The land belongs to the God," says the Koran. This would need clarification in the constitution. Presumably Jinnah, the lawyer, would be just the person to correlate the "true Islamic principles" one heard so much about in Pakistan with the new nation's laws. But all he would tell me was that the constitution would be democratic because "the soil is perfectly fertile for democracy."

What plans did he have for the industrial development of the country? Did he hope to enlist technical or financial assistance from America?

"America needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs America," was Jinnah's reply. "Pakistan is the pivot of the world, as we are placed" -- he revolved his long forefinger in bony circles -- "the frontier on which the future position of the world revolves." He leaned toward me, dropping his voice to a confidential note. "Russia," confided Mr. Jinnah, "is not so very far away."

This had a familiar ring. In Jinnah's mind this brave new nation had no other claim on American friendship than this - that across a wild tumble of roadless mountain ranges lay the land of the BoIsheviks. I wondered whether the Quaid-i-Azam considered his new state only as an armored buffer between opposing major powers. He was stressing America's military interest in other parts of the world. "America is now awakened," he said with a satisfied smile. Since the United States was now bolstering up Greece and Turkey, she should be much more interested in pouring money and arms into Pakistan. "If Russia walks in here," he concluded, "the whole world is menaced."

In the weeks to come I was to hear the Quaid-i-Azam's thesis echoed by government officials throughout Pakistan. "Surely America will build up our army," they would say to me. "Surely America will give us loans to keep Russia from walking in." But when I asked whether there were any signs of Russian infiltration, they would reply almost sadly, as though sorry not to be able to make more of the argument. "No, Russia has shown no signs of being interested in Pakistan."

This hope of tapping the U. S. Treasury was voiced so persistently that one wondered whether the purpose was to bolster the world against Bolshevism or to bolster Pakistan's own uncertain position as a new political entity. Actually, I think, it was more nearly related to the even more significant bankruptcy of ideas in the new Muslim state -- a nation drawing its spurious warmth from the embers of an antique religious fanaticism, fanned into a new blaze.

Jinnah's most frequently used technique in the struggle for his new nation had been the playing of opponent against opponent. Evidently this technique was now to be extended into foreign policy. ....

No one would have been more astonished than Jinnah if he could have foreseen thirty or forty years earlier that anyone would ever speak of him as a "savior of Islam." In those days any talk of religion brought a cynical smile. He condemned those who talked in terms of religious rivalries, and in the stirring period when the crusade for freedom began sweeping the country he was hailed as "the embodied symbol of Hindu-Muslim unity." The gifted Congresswoman, Mrs. Naidu, one of Jinnah's closest friends, wrote poems extolling his role as the great unifier in the fight for independence. "Perchance it is written in the book of the future," ran one of her tributes, "that he, in some terrible crisis of our national struggle, will pass into immortality" as the hero of "the Indian liberation."

In the "terrible crisis," Mahomed Ali Jinnah was to pass into immortality, not as the ambassador of unity, but as the deliberate apostle of discord. What caused this spectacular renunciation of the concept of a united India, to which he had dedicated the greater part of his life? No one knows exactly. The immediate occasion for the break, in the mid-thirties, was his opposition to Gandhi's civil disobedience program. Nehru says that Jinnah "disliked the crowds of ill-dressed people who filled the Congress" and was not at home with the new spirit rising among the common people under Gandhi's magnetic leadership. Others say it was against his legal conscience to accept Gandhi's program. One thing is certain: the break with Gandhi, Nehru, and the other Congress leaders was not caused by any Hindu-Muslim issue.

In any case, Jinnah revived the moribund Muslim League in 1936 after it had dragged through an anemic thirty years' existence, and took to the religious soapbox. He began dinning into the ears of millions of Muslims the claim that they were downtrodden solely because of Hindu domination. During the years directly preceding this move on his part, an unprecedented degree of unity had developed between Muslims and Hindus in their struggle for independence from the British Raj. The British feared this unity, and used their divide-and-rule tactics to disrupt it. Certain highly placed Indians also feared unity, dreading a popular movement which would threaten their special position. Then another decisive factor arose. Although Hindus had always been ahead of Muslims in the industrial sphere, the great Muslim feudal landlords now had aspirations toward industry. From these wealthy Muslims, who resented the well-established Hindu competition, Jinnah drew his powerful supporters. One wonders whether Jinnah was fighting to free downtrodden Muslims from domination or merely to gain an earmarked area, free from competition, for this small and wealthy clan.

The trend of events in Pakistan would support the theory that Jinnah carried the banner of the Muslim landed aristocracy, rather than that of the Muslim masses he claimed to champion. There was no hint of personal material gain in this. Jinnah was known to be personally incorruptible, a virtue which gave him a great strength with both poor and rich. The drive for personal wealth played no part in his politics. It was a drive for power. ......

Less than three months after Pakistan became a nation, Jinnah's Olympian assurance had strangely withered. His altered condition was not made public. "The Quaid-i-Azam has a bad cold" was the answer given to inquiries.

Only those closest to him knew that the "cold" was accompanied by paralyzing inability to make even the smallest decisions, by sullen silences striped with outbursts of irritation, by a spiritual numbness concealing something close to panic underneath. I knew it only because I spent most of this trying period at Government House, attempting to take a new portrait of Jinnah for a Life cover.

The Quaid-i-Azam was still revered as a messiah and deliverer by most of his people. But the "Great Leader" himself could not fail to know that all was not well in his new creation, the nation; the nation that his critics referred to as the "House that Jinnah built." The separation from the main body of India had been in many ways an unrealistic one. Pakistan raised 75 per cent of the world's jute supply; the processing mills were all in India. Pakistan raised one third of the cotton of India, but it had only one thirtieth of the cotton mills. Although it produced the bulk of Indian skins and hides, all the leather tanneries were in South India. The new state had no paper mills, few iron foundries. Rail and road facilities, insufficient at best, were still choked with refugees. Pakistan has a superbly fertile soil, and its outstanding advantage is self-sufficiency in food, but this was threatened by the never-ending flood of refugees who continued pouring in long after the peak of the religious wars had passed.

With his burning devotion to his separate Islamic nation, Jinnah had taken all these formidable obstacles in his stride. But the blow that finally broke his spirit struck at the very name of Pakistan. While the literal meaning of the name is "Land of the Pure," the word is a compound of initial letters of the Muslim majority provinces which Jinnah had expected to incorporate: P for the Punjab, A for the Afghans' area on the Northwest Frontier, S for Sind, -tan for Baluchistan. But the K was missing.

Kashmir, India's largest princely state, despite its 77 per cent Muslim population, had not fallen into the arms of Pakistan by the sheer weight of religious majority. Kashmir had acceded to India, and although it was now the scene of an undeclared war between the two nations, the fitting of the K into Pakistan was left in doubt. With the beginning of this torturing anxiety over Kashmir, the Quaid-i-Azam's siege of bad colds began, and then his dismaying withdrawal into himself. ....

Later, reflecting on what I had seen, I decided that this desperation was due to causes far deeper than anxiety over Pakistan's territorial and economic difficulties. I think that the tortured appearance of Mr. Jinnah was an indication that, in these final months of his life, he was adding up his own balance sheet. Analytical, brilliant, and no bigot, he knew what he had done. Like Doctor Faustus, he had made a bargain from which he could never be free. During the heat of the struggle he had been willing to call on all the devilish forces of superstition, and now that his new nation had been achieved the bigots were in the position of authority. The leaders of orthodoxy and a few "old families" had the final word and, to perpetuate their power, were seeing to it that the people were held in the deadening grip of religious superstition.

Posted by john 2005-04-16 5:12:17 PM|| 2005-04-16 5:12:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Musharraf should remember the fate of former
" loyal allies " like Shah of Iran, Suharta of Indonesia and Zia - ul - Haq of Pakistan.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 5:23:55 PM|| 2005-04-16 5:23:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 To compare Jinnah with Musharraf is to compare a giant with a pygmie.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 5:26:57 PM|| 2005-04-16 5:26:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 To compare Jinnah with Musharraf is to compare a giant with a pygmie.

Posted by muslim for peace 2005-04-16 5:29:00 PM|| 2005-04-16 5:29:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 of course! After all, Pakistan leads the world in....ummm.... what, exactly, besides Bugtis, Talibs, Marassahs, and fake documents? Not meaning to disparage Pakistan undeservedly, but I believe there's so much that I could cite that it's not necessary, is it?

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-16 6:22:07 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:22:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 I agree.

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-16 6:25:39 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:25:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Of course that's the plan.

Posted by The Mossad 2005-04-16 6:26:04 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:26:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 What plan?

Posted by Col. Flagg 2005-04-16 6:26:38 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:26:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 The Plan is to waste Fred's bandwidth, thereby creating a market for chocolate covered cotton in Cairo.

Posted by Milo 2005-04-16 6:28:08 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:28:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Hush, Moron for Peace and Jon are discussing!

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-16 6:29:10 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:29:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Let's table this right now.

Posted by abu Bruce 2005-04-16 6:30:11 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:30:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Power! to them peeeeples right! on! now!

Posted by abu Byrd 2005-04-16 6:31:33 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:31:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 35 only. Heh, no match for 'Aris-ed' threads!

Posted by Sobiesky 2005-04-16 6:48:47 PM|| 2005-04-16 6:48:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 > giant with a pygmie

Musharraf has succeeded where Jinnah failed.

Today Pakistan gets billions in aid. It no longer needs the Russian threat. It creates the very threat (jihadi terrorism) that it is being paid to fight. It has proliferated the most dangerous nuclear technology to the most irrational rogue nations and gets rewarded with billions of US taxpayer dollars. Jinnah could never imagine such chutzpah.

Today Musharraf is feted in the city of his birth, Delhi, travelling there by 747.
Jinnah died in a run down ambulance on the side of the road.

Jinnah's children and grandchildren are Indian citizens while Musharraf's children, grandchildren and parents are US residents and citizens.

Who is the most successful? Who is the pygmy?

Posted by john 2005-04-16 7:32:37 PM|| 2005-04-16 7:32:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Who is the most successful? Opra

Who is the pygmy? Donna Shalala

Posted by Bin Sleepen 2005-04-16 7:47:11 PM|| 2005-04-16 7:47:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 //#36 35 only. Heh, no match for 'Aris-ed' threads!
Posted by: Sobiesky 2005-04-16 6:48:47 PM Comment Top Page 1
//

did he leeve for bootcamp yet?

Posted by muck4doo 2005-04-16 7:51:18 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2005-04-16 7:51:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 dunno Mucky - I thought May....

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-16 8:09:45 PM|| 2005-04-16 8:09:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 thinkin that wuld maker good reeality teevee show.

Posted by muck4doo 2005-04-16 8:11:38 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2005-04-16 8:11:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Gomer Pyle has already been done. Re-making it in Greek is not a plus.

Posted by Tom 2005-04-16 8:21:54 PM|| 2005-04-16 8:21:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 lmao!

Posted by muck4doo 2005-04-16 8:26:33 PM|| [http://meatismurder.blogspot.com/] 2005-04-16 8:26:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Oh! Nevermind. I was thinking Wackist Shit in the Army.

Posted by Shipman 2005-04-16 8:37:29 PM|| 2005-04-16 8:37:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 More jihadis turned to fertilizer

Top Hizb-ul-Mujahideen commander killed

http://www.hindu.com/2005/04/17/stories/2005041704560900.htm

"some of the residents alleged that the militant commander was not killed in the exchange of fire but while in custody."

Posted by john 2005-04-16 9:34:28 PM|| 2005-04-16 9:34:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Herewith I present, for your learning pleasure, this thread of Rantburg University!

Thank you john, muslim for peace. Perhaps, by the time this phase of the War on Terror has been completed, beautiful Kashmir will once again be peaceful, free of religious persecution, and open to visits from those who wish it well and remember it fondly. (I have been accused of being a Pollyanna ... today I exercise the attitude. Still, with the clear failure of the jihadi philosophy to affect the political changes its adherents seek, the possibility is real, if not yet measurable.)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-04-16 10:00:13 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:00:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Some statistics (graphs)

Jihadi terrorists killed
http://www.armyinkashmir.org/v2/statistical_facts/foreign_terrorists.shtml

Captured weapons
http://www.armyinkashmir.org/v2/statistical_facts/captured_wepons.shtml

Posted by john 2005-04-16 10:19:24 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:19:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Photographs of killed jihadi terrorists
(warning - graphic images !!! )
http://www.armyinkashmir.org/v2/foreign_terrorist_killed/foreign_terrorist_killed.shtml

Posted by john 2005-04-16 10:25:54 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:25:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 More fertilizer
Warning - graphic photo!!

Posted by john 2005-04-16 10:35:28 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:35:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Ooh what a mess , glad i left this thread when I did :)

Posted by MacNails 2005-04-16 10:43:54 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:43:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 Martha Stewart recommends that you turn the Jihadis over once early in spring for full mulch effect, sprinkling lightly with Kosher salt to balance the Ph

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-16 10:58:52 PM|| 2005-04-16 10:58:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 These fellas are well on their way to mulch
Warning - graphic image!

Posted by john 2005-04-16 11:27:26 PM|| 2005-04-16 11:27:26 PM|| Front Page Top

13:34 Colonel Flagg
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