Article

2005-04-11 Europe

Two Failed Terrorism Trials Raise Worry in Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Paul Moloney 2005-04-11 4:19:34 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "We cannot wait until attacks have been carried out and the dead are lying on the street," prosecutor Silke Ritzert said in her summing-up of the Garnaoui case.

Funny, I seem to recollect Europeans advising Israel to wait and "respect human rights" on numerous occassions --- while there were dead lying on our streets.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-04-11 7:09:18 AM|| 2005-04-11 7:09:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 But,Grom,those were dead Jews.

Posted by raptor 2005-04-11 8:17:40 AM|| 2005-04-11 8:17:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Failed terrorism prosecutions in Germany and the Netherlands this week have highlighted Europeâs patchy record in securing convictions and prompted some to ask if laws need to be tightened.

In Europe's case, dead bodies would help.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-04-11 11:00:11 AM|| 2005-04-11 11:00:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Dead bodies didn't seem to help that much in Spain.

Posted by Jackal 2005-04-11 11:08:11 AM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-04-11 11:08:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Common sense still exists among the people, if not among their judicial and political betters. Such foolish decisions only make polarization and civil strife more, not less, likely in Europe.

How long before ordinary Europeans vent their disgust with such stupidity and start acting directly against the jihadist menace?

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-11 5:21:15 PM|| 2005-04-11 5:21:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 european peasants with pitchforks and torches assault the monster's lair? Sounds familiar...

Posted by Frank G 2005-04-11 5:26:32 PM|| 2005-04-11 5:26:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 I'd bet that the most "tolerant" European nations will soon become the most intolerant: watch the ordinary folks in the smaller multi-culti nations like Holland and Denmark to go berserk first

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-11 5:29:51 PM|| 2005-04-11 5:29:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I'd always be careful to call a decision of a judge "foolish". A judge applies the law as it is. A judge can believe that a defendant is guilty, but that's not enough, his guilt must be proven "beyond reasonable doubt". (I bet Judge Ito did not believe that O.J. was innocent)

In this case the evidence was not good enough, and the law says "in dubio pro reo".

In those cases this is painful and the law will need to be adapted for better security. Where does "planning" start? Buying a map and drawing a circle around the White House?

I would not be so quick to condemn European courts. You might actually get similar results if you submitted terrorist cases like that to regular US courts, with regular lawyers etc. The judges might very well apply the same high standards of judging evidence.

How's that Moussaoui case going in Alexandria?

The German case is not over btw as the Federal Prosecutor will appeal.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-11 6:30:56 PM|| 2005-04-11 6:30:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 TGA a Dutch jury of dutch citizens not lawyers/judges would have put him away.
That is the problem. The state will not trust the people to decide on guilt or innocence. It's a pannel of Judges who don't have to worry about it. No one will ever hold them accountable for good or bad decisions.

If you want law go to the courts of law. If you want justice look some other place. There is little if any justice in a court of law. Jury trials moderate the excesses of the law.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-04-11 6:53:30 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2005-04-11 6:53:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 A jury didn't put O.J. away if I remember well.
The difference? O.J.'s aquittal was final. Had this case been tried by German judges (actually in penal cases two "assistant judges" chosen from ordinary people) co-decide the case with the professional judge, so the people has its say) the prosecutor would have appealed.
A jury is not our legal tradition. In some cases that's bad but not in all. Lawyers don't get to inflate their ego as much as in America. Often, the better lawyer wins in the U.S.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-04-11 7:02:39 PM|| 2005-04-11 7:02:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 TGA, I respect your points as regards the German case, but I was speaking mainly of the Dutch one. The evidence in that case was more than enough to convict under any reading of criminal/terror conspiracy law. I find it hard to believe that Dutch law is so lax or weak as to let the defendant off in this case.

Posted by thibaud (aka lex) 2005-04-11 7:15:50 PM|| 2005-04-11 7:15:50 PM|| Front Page Top

09:46 Anonymous
09:45 Anonymous
09:28 Anonymous
23:49 Sobiesky
23:44 Sock Puppet 0â Doom
23:18 phil_b
23:13 OldSpook
22:44 Frank G
22:37 True German Ally
22:34 True German Ally
22:29 Pappy
22:27 DMFD
22:26 Frank G
22:19 Pappy
22:14 thibaud (aka lex)
22:11 thibaud (aka lex)
22:04 Pappy
22:00 Chinese Unomoger1553
21:51 Eric Jablow
21:45 Kos
21:39 Bomb-a-rama
21:39 Bodyguard
21:38 jackal
21:36 jackal