Article

2004-03-16 Europe

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Posted by Steve White 2004-03-16 2:06:25 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Say kids, isnt the new Spanish PM's move a bit, shall we say unilateral?

I dont personally see what the big deal is, since everyone on the left concluded that this was an "illegitamate coalition" anyway, who cares if they leave.

Posted by Frank Martin 2004-3-16 12:10:27 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:10:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The really ridiculous part is that by pulling out now the Spanish PM isn't saying he's against the war in Iraq. He's saying he's against helping the Iraqi people create a democracy.

On top of that, how could he have announced his intentions NOW. He couldn't wait till he took office. It's like this moron wanted to make sure Al Queda knew that he was whipped and giving up. Pathetic.

This Zapateros guy is either a complete moron or a complete scum bag.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-16 12:21:38 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-16 12:21:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 and another thing......

Since the left took it upon itself to blame the US "intervention" in iraq for the al-queda attacks in Madrid( the leftist version of a woman asking for rape by wearing provocative clothing, "She asked for it" they say..ah the left is so enlightend as to be above such simplesse), shall we all reserve a hate filled rant at Spain when our trains and subways are surely to be bombed this summer?

To the rest of Europe, a warning - They are coming for you, youve made yourselves a target by showing that you can be persuaded by mindless violence. You actually believe that you can reason with evil and as a result, you've shown them you are the weak link in the wall and now they are going to do everything in their remainng power to exploit it. And when they do, you can give thanks to the french, the germans ,the belgians and now the spanish for your deaths. They have made you a target to be exploited, not us. Since we understand that you have nothing but contempt for the US, you may feel free to seek help and protection from the UN.

Posted by Frank Martin 2004-3-16 12:28:53 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:28:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Didn't they learn anything from their attempts to appease Hitler?

Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it. --- (I dont remember who said that...)

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-3-16 12:36:16 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:36:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 CF - I vote for "both."

Posted by PBMcL 2004-3-16 12:37:16 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:37:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Frank I think many of the euros are hoping that by appeasing AQ the terrorists will turn their attention on America and they will only then become a target in the unlikely event of America's defeat.

There hope is that the terrorists will hurt us badly but ultimately be unable to defeat us. They're not stupid, they know if we lost they're next. They think they can regain their influence in the world by having the terrorist tear us down a notch... the whole time we're in the fight they will launch moral superiority attacks about how contemptable we are for fighting. Similar to what they are doing to the Israelis.

Personally I believe their plan will fail because the terrorist will continue to demand more and more of them until they are asked for something they cannot give. You know the Euros have been know to give up a country here and there to appease but once you start talking about taking France or Germany wholesale it'll actually wake them up. The other facet I think they fail to grasp is that if we're struck hard enough we will no longer play softball.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-16 12:39:02 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-16 12:39:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Oops. I meant DPA. You guys are too fast...

Posted by PBMcL 2004-3-16 12:39:21 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:39:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 PBMcL, both is probably right.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-16 12:43:25 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-16 12:43:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Its all a moot point anyway, the Euros are not breeding fast enough to remain viable as a civilizations anyway.

I hold out hope for the Germans and the UK, but the French,Italians,Russians and Spanish will ( if current trends continue) cease to be viable, distinct populations in as little as 40 years time. Italians are in such a population state that they are no longer at "zero population growth" but negative population growth.

The only way the euros are able to keep going today is by widespread immigration, largely from Islamic populations. However, unlike the US, most european countries do not require immigration populations to integrate with existing culture and languages and as a result, large ghetto populations exist in all the larger cities of europe.

Europes approach to the war on terror has as much to do with their internal recongition that in many ways they have already lost the war at home.

We would all do well to gather as much of the remains of their culture for storage in our museums. Im afraid that europe is about to fall to the barbarians the way that the Roman civilization did in the past.

Posted by Frank Martin 2004-3-16 12:51:24 AM|| 2004-3-16 12:51:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I hold out hope for the Slavs, Frank: the Russians, Ukrainskii Polski, etc. They may be on the frontlines of Islam's War against civilization, and they have taken some hits, but I believe that Slavs, their language their culture, and their religion will prevail in their geographic area.

Heck, Russia emerged from 70 years of a murderous leftist regime, it is hard to imagine them not surviving the War on Terrorism.

Col. Albert Seaton, the Brit historian, once wrote: The further one is away from the Russian, the greater the tendency to udnerestimate him. I like to think that applies to all Slavs.

Posted by badanov 2004-3-16 1:00:43 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-3-16 1:00:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Has anyone modeled what would happen if a nuclear reactor in France or Spain had a high-speed meeting with an Airbus?

Posted by Mahmoud, the Weasel 2004-3-16 1:25:02 AM|| 2004-3-16 1:25:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Steve, I don't think that the following comment helps your argument that withdrawal of Spanish troops is a mistake

No Roman, you have a government to decide that, and people to decide on the government in the next election

you could reasonably argue that that's what the Spaniards did on the weekend

Posted by Igs 2004-3-16 1:53:17 AM|| 2004-3-16 1:53:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Igs, you're absolutely right, and I wasn't critiquing my argument, I was critiquing Roman.

To be clear, the Spanish people had a right to do what they did. I think they're wrong, but my opinion and three dollars will get you a coffee at the Starbucks. The Aznar government committed the Spanish people to a course of action, and the people decided Sunday that they didn't like that. Again, their right, and now they get to live with the consequences.

So, unfortunately, do we, and I do think that among the several major consequences will be further attacks on coalition governments by al-Q. While the Poles, etc. are holding firm now, a couple of attacks in Warsaw, Prague, Sofia, etc., and you just might see people there question their governments just as was done in Spain.

One thing I'll bring up that others haven't: the timing of the attack in Madrid: close enough to the election to induce fear and anger, and too close to let that fear and anger coalesce to the next stage: grim resolve. Remember the first two weeks in this country after 9/11? We grieved, we were afraid, we were angry.

Then we decided, "allrighty, you wanted our attention, now you got it. Punk." The Spanish people would have gotten there (I'm comfortably certain of that), except they had an election before they did. And now the new Socialist government will vitiate that human response in favor of soothing words -- "it's okay, we'll get out of Iraq and those evil people won't bother us again, 'cause we were wrong, you see."

And perhaps that will be the case for a while. Al-Q would be massively stupid to attack Spain again. They got what they wanted, and the Spanish miliary and police are on guard now. So al-Q will find a softer, more inviting target (Cracow? Birmingham? Strausborg?) and strike when they're ready. And then another government will shake and tremble (and perhaps fall), and we'll see this again.

Wash, rinse, repeat, as we say on Rantburg.

Could this happen in the U.S.? al-Q does something truly spectacular and nasty say, Halloween night? We get about a week or so, barely enough to bury our dead, the media blaring all the while (as they did in Spain) how "this changes everything", and JFKerry doesn't have to say a word. He just stands there with an outstretched finger at GWB.

Yep, could happen. Is the collective hive that is now al-Q's leadership thinking/planning something like this? I'll bet they are.

Posted by Steve White 2004-3-16 2:07:12 AM|| 2004-3-16 2:07:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern said proposals to be discussed at the EU meeting would also include a "solidarity clause"

Solidarity about what Bertie? The policeing of Islamic combatants. Fuck@#g talking heads. Watch, world, as Spain cacoons. And EU pretends.

Posted by Lucky 2004-3-16 3:38:13 AM|| 2004-3-16 3:38:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 #4 crazyfool--ironically that quote about history repeating itself was from george santayana --a modern SPANISH philosopher

Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2004-3-16 4:20:12 AM|| 2004-3-16 4:20:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Could this happen in the U.S.? al-Q does something truly spectacular and nasty say, Halloween night? We get about a week or so, barely enough to bury our dead, the media blaring all the while (as they did in Spain) how "this changes everything", and JFKerry doesn't have to say a word. He just stands there with an outstretched finger at GWB.

Steve,
Good question !
I would like to draw your attention to an interesting phenomenon. In countries where radical Islam is perceived as a real threat to the existence of the state, attrocities perpetrated by the terrorists usually sway the vote in the right direction.
In Israel, after many years of trying to negotiate and compromise with the Paleo's, the second Intifadeh and the rain of crazy boomers in the name of the religion of peace(TM) caused a landslide victory of the right wing in the elections.
Similarely, in the USA after 9/11 a majority of americans perceived that they cannot ignore this
without a real risk to their system and interests and the US government responded accordingly by initiating the WOT.
While the two situations are not exactly equivalent, what I am driving at is that I think the majority of Israelis and Americans have sharper survival instincts.
My impression is that if there is a second 9/11 sized terrorist action in the US, the American voters are going to vote republican because I think most americans (even many Democrats) have stronger survival instincts than most Europeans.

Posted by The Dodo 2004-3-16 5:11:45 AM|| 2004-3-16 5:11:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 The other facet I think they fail to grasp is that if we're struck hard enough we will no longer play softball.

DPA,
did you have in mind a game involving a lot of craters that glow in the dark???

Posted by The Dodo 2004-3-16 5:14:37 AM|| 2004-3-16 5:14:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Eastern Orthodox Slavs will hold out OK - they remain acutely aware than their Vatican - Constantinople (Istanbul) - remains under Muslim occupation, in Turkey.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-3-16 5:19:11 AM|| 2004-3-16 5:19:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Badanov: I truly wish you were right, but Eastern European birthrates are just as dismal as Western European rates.

Poland: 0%
Ukraine: -0.69%
Russia: -0.3%
Belarus: -0.12%

It's just statistics. Different projections I've seen predict between 50 and 100 million fewer Europeans by 2050 even when you include immigration. Countries with the lowest birthrates like Spain and Italy will have one worker supporting one retiree by that date. While all this may be fine from a "save the planet" point of view, it makes no sense at all when your neighboring culture is fast growing and opportunistic.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-16 9:05:23 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:05:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Source for the above.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-16 9:06:19 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:06:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Concerning history repeating itself. To think that history repeats itself is moronic in the extreme. The only thing that repeats is people's belief they understand history and consequently current events (as a repetition of previous events in history).

Go read The Poverty of Historicism by Karl Popper.

Posted by phil_b 2004-3-16 9:33:53 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:33:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Killer discussion. Killer observations. My $0.02 to add is that the US press is already primed to do the finger pointing Dr Steve describes - the pundits are crowing that it will be the perception that "Dubya failed to protect us" that will be the key. If the public buys that idea - he's toast. If not, then it will be hobnail boots time.

Posted by .com 2004-3-16 9:54:31 AM|| 2004-3-16 9:54:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 And concerning the birth rates in Europe and various other developed societies like Japan and Singapore. The argument that it is a bad thing rests on the need for working members of society to pay taxes to support non-working members. The solution is simple. Restrict benefits to non-working people including the retired. In fact retirement is an anachronism. It was introduced when most be people did physically demanding labor, which is rare these days.

And as far as more vigorous societies are concerned. Wake me up when Albania or Syria becomes more dynamic than Germany or Israel. I.E. birth rate has nothing to do with a societies dynamism.

Posted by phil_b 2004-3-16 10:38:43 AM|| 2004-3-16 10:38:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Steve, I disagree.

I remember 9/11 vividly. I watched it happen outside my aparment window on the upper west side. People were frightened but they wanted revenge on day 1. I remember talking to liberals immediatly after 9/11 and they wanted to nuke the middle east. The questioning of the government's policies came much later.

The media may attempt to sway public opinion after an attack to blame Bush but it won't work. The American public's initial reaction to getting attacked is to hit back and then ask questions later. This is far different than the Euros who live with the history of WW1 & 2 and thus are deeply afraid of ANY conflict. The world wars turned Europe into a population of mostly appeasers. I believe the reason England is different is that they were able to stay in the fight till the end and were never conquered. They don't have the fear of knowing what it's like to be beaten. The rest of Europe are like top ranked boxers who've been knocked out a couple of times and are never quite the same. The fear paralyzes them. An attack on the UK and the US will only bring out a desire for revenge, not appeasment.

Posted by Damn_Proud_American 2004-3-16 11:07:29 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com] 2004-3-16 11:07:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 DPA: I'm not sure it was the world wars or the subsequent disarmament. Surely the fact that most Euros -couldn't- hit back -- not even with nukes! -- except with our help has to change their take on the situation.

Posted by someone 2004-3-16 12:04:52 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:04:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 phil_b: Restricting benefits to retirees is tough thing to do when they represent the majority of the active electorate. Of course, obstruction of change will likely have the effect of energizing young voters (who are so often apathetic). It will be an interesting problem since radical changes to the social contract usually result in great turmoil. Re birthrate and societal dynamism: I don't agree that dynamism is the key factor. I think that ruthlessness is. When you have Mullah's preaching, "O muslim women, your wombs are the ummah's greatest weapon," then I get worried. Cultures are a set of memes that try to propagate themselves in space and time. History is littered with examples of dynamic cultures that fell to ruthless ones. Of course this reinforces an argument that TGA made here some time ago, that to change Muslim societies, we must reach the women and educate them. I see more and more wisdom in this as time goes on.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-3-16 12:56:27 PM|| 2004-3-16 12:56:27 PM|| Front Page Top

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