Article

2003-03-28 Iraq

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-28 07:27 am|| || Front Page|| [11126 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Nice attempt at spin, Murat. It would seem by "win" President Bush meant to meet the goals of the military action. As one of those goals is liberation, they are one and the same here.

Posted by mjh 2003-03-28 07:54:57|| 2003-03-28 07:54:57|| Front Page Top

#2 You know what? I DO believe there's no cheering, because the Iraqi people don't see us as being SERIOUS. They probably still believe that Saddam Hussein is still in power. They probably still believe that world opinion will make the US and UK leave. (BTW, What OTHER nations are there where the possiblity of withdrawal of their military forces through mere public opinion exists?)

You're skeptical of US promises because we shafted Turkey in GW I. Long memory. Good for you. BUT you won't grant that the southern Iraqis, goaded into a revolt that was mercilessly crushed by Saddam because George Bush Sr. didn't have the balls to back them up, are EQUALLY skeptical of US promises that Saddam will be GONE? They got long memories too. Good for them. They have a DAMN RIGHT to be skeptical.

MEANWHILE, the IRAQI (YOU READ THAT? I-R-A-Q-I) Kurds, who had the good sense to to revolt AFTER the establishment of the no-fly zones, have fielded a 60,000 man army that they have eagerly put under US command, gushing promises not to invade the northern oil cities. They've used their food-for-oil share to create schools, hospitals, and feed their people. (hey, is THAT what Turkey is afraid of? A Kurdistan that will take care of THEIR people better than the Turks take care of their own?)

Go to a shelter for battered women, Murat, and talk to them. Talk to them about the psychology of terror. Talk to them about the bondage they felt and the terror they felt that kept them from running away. Talk to them about the system of dependency using money, food, and shelter, that their abusive husbands used to make sure they didn't run away. Talk to them about the societal pressures and the seeming heedlessness of their plight that made them believe they couldn't run and find shelter for themselves and their children.

The food for oil program did just that, making these people dependent on Saddam. If he wins, he can retaliate. He can starve them out. Hell, he's an Iraqui killing Iraqis, which, in YOUR crazy, mixed up book, is just damn fine. He can kill thousands and his men are free to commit war crimes and violate the Geneva Convention, and get a moral free pass and assenting silence from you, while you condemn mere tens of casualties of Iraqi civilians killed by Coalition forces by accident.

Explain to me why I should believe the moral judgment of ANYBODY who's so obviously incapable of equally applying the SAME standard to both sides of a conflict you oppose.

I'll listen, but if your intent is to convince me, you've got to EARN the right to be morally convincing first.

Posted by Ptah 2003-03-28 08:01:04|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-03-28 08:01:04|| Front Page Top

#3 Ahh, crap. I forgot.

Turkey is so damn perfect, they don't NEED to have battered women shelters.

Posted by Ptah 2003-03-28 08:02:10|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-03-28 08:02:10|| Front Page Top

#4 Ptah, you miss a very important point as most of the posters here, you think the Iraqi Shia will receive you with open arms because you assume they want to be liberated from Saddam. True probably they do want to be liberated from Saddam, but you forget an important detail, that is the US imposed a big embargo on Iraq, many of them lost a child due to lack of medication, food etc. all the nice side effects of an embargo. Letâs be fair when you would lose a relative or maybe a child you can hate Saddam to the bone, but youâll probably hate the Americans more, thatâs the difference, you and many Americans do expect the same Shiaâs of twelve years ago, but they ainât there anymore, the embargo starvation has produced a repercussion.

You may differ of opinion, but what there is seen right now is not a people waiting for liberation, it is a people fighting for their land and patriotism, not for Saddam.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-28 08:52:17|| 2003-03-28 08:52:17|| Front Page Top

#5 Murat - that would be a UN embargo, not a US embargo, right? Not that I support it either way, embargoes don't work too well when the goal is targeting the regime itself rather than the people.

But, the bottom line is, kids are dying at least partially because the food that DOES arrive is stolen by the regime for its own use. You can't seriously believe that the Hussein regime would lift a finger to help the Shia or Kurds. Look at what the vicious criminals are doing now - forcing them to fight (and die, basically) under threat of killing their families, then shooting them in the back if they show any sign of lack of will. A fair assessment of blame for dying children must first look at the regime itself.

Posted by Jeff Brokaw 2003-03-28 09:31:05|| [jeffbrokaw.net/weblog/] 2003-03-28 09:31:05|| Front Page Top

#6 "You may differ of opinion, but what there is seen right now is not a people waiting for liberation, it is a people fighting for their land and patriotism, not for Saddam."

What i see are civilians cowering in their houses, while the Saddam Fedayeen fight the British in Basra - the civilians waiting to see who wins.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-03-28 09:44:33|| 2003-03-28 09:44:33|| Front Page Top

#7 i also see reports of Iraqi soldiers shot by thier own officers, of soldiers who had deserted being rounded up by Fedayeen and forced back into the fight, of a woman being hung for waving to the Americans, of a man in Safwan saying he welcomed the Americans, but refusing to give his name as long as Saddam is alive, of civilians trying to flee Basra but being shot at by the Fedayeen.

There IS a difference between April 1991 and now - but its not so much the sanctions,as it is our failure to help the Shia in April 1991. They dont trust us to stay and finish the job, and with justification. And each bit of news about Baathist defiance, about coalition casualties, about outside support for Saddam, etc further discourages them, and further makes them suspect that we will turn and run, and that if they rise up they will be slaughtered (as they were slaughtered in the wake of April 1991) So the coverage in the press, including the papers you quote from, Murat, are weapons in this war - each negative headline provides objective support to Saddams war effort.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-03-28 09:50:30|| 2003-03-28 09:50:30|| Front Page Top

#8 Jeff, officially for the world it is a UN embargo, but for the Iraqis it is an American embargo, at least the one with whom they had with GW 1.

You can't seriously believe that the Hussein regime would lift a finger to help the Shia or Kurds.

This kind of assumption I here often which IMO does not reflect the real situation, people tend to think that Iraqis hate Saddam, while a lot of visitors who have visited Iraq report different, Saddam is for a lot of Arabs a hero FYI as far it has any worth for you.

By the way you talk about the Shia as if they are not Arabs maybe you do, but let me explain that the difference of Shia / Sunni is like Catholic / Protestants, they are both Muslim and the same people.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-28 10:15:59|| 2003-03-28 10:15:59|| Front Page Top

#9 Wow. How convenient that I was watching Foxnews while on coffee break, and heard an embedded reporter report on his conversations with two farmers who were crossing the camp to get to their fields and their flocks. They were very nervous UNTIL the reporter and his translator walked up to them to talk to them.

When asked why the people weren't cheering them, one farmer said that they were afraid of being abandoned in the same way they were in '91! They said they were glad that the US was there, and hoped we would stay until the job was really done. One of the farmers had been a soldier, and he admitted to abandoning his post because he didn't want to fight the Americans.

This makes LOTS of sense to me, Murat. More than your deliberate misinformation about UN sanctions being US sanctions. If the Islamic people STILL have their undies in a twist 1000 stinkin' years after the infidel Crusaders captured Jerusalem, then remembering what happened 12 years ago when George Bush Sr. let them twist in the wind won't tax their mental abilities one whit. (And if you want Rantburg regulars to really feel ashamed and embarassed about America, talk about how we abandoned our friends, like the Moro tribe in Vietnam. Get a clue.)

The farmers explained that they were scared of Americans because of the military equipment. (I don't blame them. I feel a little intimidated myself when I go to the Vidalia Air show and see all the nasty military equipment we put on display there.) My supposition is that they relaxed with the reporter because they were afraid of being identified as Fedayeen terrorists.

In short, we were welcome, but they'll believe us when we back up our words with deeds. I.e. when we prove we have a REPUBLICAN president, not a Democrat. Perhaps we underestimated their willingness to let us break some eggs to make the freedom omlette, so they're waiting to see if we'll "get dangerous".

War propaganda you say? What do you think you're feeding us here at Rantburg?

Finally, PLEASE explain a religion that has NO problems continuing to teach hate and revenge for kicking dhimmi enforcing, kuffir oppressing Muslims out of Jerusalem 1000 years ago, when Christianity was able to get the Americans to forgive the Japanese for Pearl Harbor within 20 years of the sneak attack.

The REAL power of a TRUE religion from a TRUE God is it's ability to help men master the power of hate in their hearts, not permission or excuses to let it run rampant in the name and with the blessing of God. THAT was the TRUE disgrace of the Crusades. One of the purposes of my blog is to REFORM and IMPROVE the Crusader order.

And a REAL religion CERTAINLY does not endorse hypocrisy and open lying to advance the cause of God. Leastways one I'm obligated to respect if I don't feel like following it.

I'm listening, but my fairness detection meter still hasn't budged off 0.

Posted by Ptah 2003-03-28 10:27:51|| [www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-03-28 10:27:51|| Front Page Top

#10 "...officially for the world it is a UN embargo, but for the Iraqis it is an American embargo..."

Could you elaborate that point please, Murat? Unless I'm mistaken that's a blatant example of Arab anti-Amercan self-delusion. I take it that if they do actually believe this, you would consider them to be wrong.

"...people tend to think that Iraqis hate Saddam, while a lot of visitors who have visited Iraq report different, Saddam is for a lot of Arabs a hero..."

We've heard from the sort of visitor who think's Saddam's Iraq is just hunky-dory, thanks. They all have an agenda which celebrates Saddam's style of repression, like your good self. And the fact that Saddam is perceived as a hero by many Arabs (which is undeniable) just goes to show the contempt those Arabs have for humanity, be it Muslim, Jew, Christian, or other.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-28 10:36:40|| 2003-03-28 10:36:40|| Front Page Top

#11 OK guys lets reassess, the Iraqi people are afraid of Saddam, his republican guards, the fedayeen and their own army right, in fact they are jubilant to be liberated by the US and British but so afraid to show. Even at the food delivery by the British in Umm Qasr they are so afraid they still chant in favour of Saddam. Question, who are these fedayeen, republican guards, militias and regulars, arenât they the brothers, sons, fathers or nephews of the same Iraqi people, they really must be happy and in ecstasy that Americans liberate them from their fathers and sons.

Posted by Murat 2003-03-28 10:41:54|| 2003-03-28 10:41:54|| Front Page Top

#12 Thanks Ptah and Bulldog, you saved me some typing.

Murat, stay off the meds, you're spouting gibberish. I don't have the time or inclination to discuss facts when you counter them with propaganda.

Posted by Jeff Brokaw 2003-03-28 10:43:35|| [jeffbrokaw.net/weblog/] 2003-03-28 10:43:35|| Front Page Top

#13 "...officially for the world it is a UN embargo, but for the Iraqis it is an American embargo..."

Yes I can elaborate it, but I am sure you can too, who did fight Iraq during GW1? 90% US and 10% rest, how would you perceive the embargo?

Posted by Murat 2003-03-28 10:49:31|| 2003-03-28 10:49:31|| Front Page Top

#14 Murat: the regulars are the fathers, brothers, and sons, of the people of Basra,Nassiriya, etc. Which is why they fedayeen have to force them to fight. The fedayee and republican guards are Sunnis from Bagdad and especially Tikrit. I dont doubt they and their relatives are a problem, and that a good portion of the iraqi people (say 10-20%) support the regime. But I think you are misjudging whats happening in the south right now.

You point out that the Sunni/Shia split is analogous to Catholic/Protestant - I assume you were trying to minimize it - ironic, since some of the Brit forces going into Basra have experience in Belfast. And I would venture that the discrimination faced by the Catholics of Northern Ireland is dwarfed by the atrocities the Baathist regime has inflicted on the Shia.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-03-28 10:52:50|| 2003-03-28 10:52:50|| Front Page Top

#15 How do I perceive the UN embargo? Another UN f*ck up.

How would I perceive the UN embargo? Another Saddam Hussein f*ck up.

Posted by Bulldog 2003-03-28 11:10:30|| 2003-03-28 11:10:30|| Front Page Top

#16 No critisisiam,Ptah.Just a clarification:The Moros
were an ethnic,minority tribe in the Phlipines(and if possable more insane than the Islamofacists),the people you are refering to in Vietnam are the Montanghards.

Posted by raptor 2003-03-28 12:29:13|| 2003-03-28 12:29:13|| Front Page Top

#17 Ditto Liberial,
Murat quit with the bull we all know who is in charge of Iraq,who does the slaughtering,who suffers,and who is fat and happy.
What happen did you run out of logical arguments?
Have you been reduced to lies and propoganda?
I used to have a great deal of respect for you but that is quickly on the wain.

Posted by raptor 2003-03-28 12:41:41|| 2003-03-28 12:41:41|| Front Page Top

#18 Just for Murat, an example of Turkish humor:

Q:"How many Armenians does it take to change a light bulb?"
A: "We'll never know, we murdered them all."

Posted by Hodadenon 2003-03-28 13:41:25|| 2003-03-28 13:41:25|| Front Page Top

#19 ...Hodadenon hits him with an Armenian joke and MURAT IS DOWN! HE'S DOWN! A SHOT OUT OF NOWHERE! AND MURAT IS DOWN!....9....10! It's over!

Posted by tu3031 2003-03-28 14:18:51|| 2003-03-28 14:18:51|| Front Page Top

#20 I cant let this one get by( from an earlier murat response) :
By the way you talk about the Shia as if they are not Arabs maybe you do, but let me explain that the difference of Shia / Sunni is like Catholic / Protestants, they are both Muslim and the same people

Of course we can all point to the shared love and affection between Protestants and Catholics, why Northern Ireland is a perfect example of brotherly love between Catholics and Protestants. After all,they are both Irish, they are one people.

Posted by Frank Martin 2003-03-28 18:19:13|| [varifrank.blogspot.com] 2003-03-28 18:19:13|| Front Page Top

06:07 Eleanor
12:00 True American
08:24 raptor
18:09 Phate
08:11 raptor
08:09 raptor
07:56 raptor
07:38 raptor
02:38 anon1
02:00 Brew
01:59 Dishman
01:48 Brew
01:44 Brew
01:31 mojo
01:29 Brew
01:23 mojo
01:17 Paolo
01:12 Paolo
01:11 Kalle (kafir forever)
01:01 Joe
00:53 someone
00:53 Kalle (kafir forever)
00:49 Reed
23:56 Christopher Johnson