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2004-03-17 Britain
Blair Says World Leaders Must Confront Terrorism or Lose Battle
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Posted by .com 2004-03-17 8:22:01 AM|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 well, terrorism should be defeated, but that will not happen by military means solely.. If only the UK & the US would start to acknowledge this..
Posted by lyot  2004-3-17 8:27:14 AM||   2004-3-17 8:27:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Did you have another solution in mine, lyot?
Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-17 8:32:36 AM||   2004-3-17 8:32:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Balls. Get into'em. They don't like it up 'em you know. If only TB did a better job of locking up the loonies!
Posted by Howard UK 2004-3-17 8:41:01 AM||   2004-3-17 8:41:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 lyot is right. Terror cannot be defeated by military means only. Which is why Bush's strategy to aggressively go after terror cashflows, very strong committment to build democracy in capitalism in Iraq is so critical. Very important for people to point just how multifacted and comprehensive Bush's strategy is.

Thanks Lyot!!!
Posted by ne1469 2004-3-17 8:45:50 AM||   2004-3-17 8:45:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Peace, love and understanding are percieved as weakness by Islamists lyot, So F** 'em.
Posted by JerseyMike 2004-3-17 8:50:25 AM||   2004-3-17 8:50:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I think what she's saying is, we need to care more about the terrorists, to win their hearts & minds, to try to understand why they hate us, to feel their pain. Being mean to them just makes them more angry.
Posted by John C. Lately 2004-3-17 8:52:14 AM||   2004-3-17 8:52:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 once a terrorist , always a terrorist.. We are not going to reform these lunatics into proper citizens..I acknowledge that the prism through which most of you see this issue is blind force : only this will make them comply..I fear this is usefull, but only to a certain extent..You can force straying governements (Syria, Libia, Iran) that need to display rational behavior and logos.. But you can't make these terrorist comply, who are all stuck in there mythologist paradigms..In the end, the succes of OBL in recruiting terrorist, lies in perceived injustices.. Take away that perception, because in the end, this is much more a war of ideology then a military war.. My .02 cents
Posted by lyot  2004-3-17 9:18:30 AM||   2004-3-17 9:18:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 lyot: I don't think there's any way to relieve them of their perceived injustices--because they are PERCEIVED injustices, having much more to do with how they are raised in their families of origin and their relationships with their fathers and mothers. As you say, they are all stuck in "their mythologist paradigms." Blind force isn't the answer, but who said it has to be blind? Who says the force we're applying IS blind? Anyway, if they got their wish, and pushed all the Jews, who they blame for everything under the sun: i.e., "my underwear's too tight--it's the Jews who did it", they would simply move on to fight this or that faction among themselves. To fight against a perceived "injustice" helps them FEEL less helpless in the societies they come from, which, essentially, emasculate them as a cultural norm. Their misguided "ideology" is the only thing standing between them and psychological annihilation. They'll never give it up. Do you understand? My 2 cents worth.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-17 9:35:13 AM||   2004-3-17 9:35:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Also, the West is a very handy target, because they can FEEL so much bigger and badder when they're united against us, than when they're fighting among themselves. The fact that "jihad" failed in Iraq really did a number on those who went there to help their Arab "brothers" because the way the Iraqis treated them, and Iraq's empty talk went against the ideology that holds them together. It's a thin thread, and force, unfortunately, is what they understand best. I think we should keep applying force. We'll be sorry if we don't.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-17 9:39:16 AM||   2004-3-17 9:39:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 take away the radical Mullahs, Clerics,Hook Hands,Imans n all other religious kill the west shit spouting fools,poisen them slowly if need be,wouldn't it be nice if they all started droping dead over the next few years.take away the big mouthed religious nutters and the jobs done, bull doze any troublesome mosques too,starting with finsbury park mosque....while hook hand is in it. Metal hook vs Big Fuckin Dozer Blade, Call upon Allan if you like Hooky but you ain't gonna preach your way out this!
Posted by Jon Shep U.K 2004-3-17 9:40:27 AM||   2004-3-17 9:40:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 If Tony Blair wants to know what a terrorist looks like he should stand in front of the mirror.BTW if he is so concerned about Liberation why doesnt he return Northern Ireland to Ireland instead of having it as part of the UK?
Posted by Antiwar 2004-3-17 10:04:12 AM||   2004-3-17 10:04:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 : well, you say they are perceived injustices but is that so ? The dire social & economical circumstances in these Arabic countries (except for the happy few) are probably very real for these people..The blame is put on the West and modernism, and that is the perception we need to fight..Because the more succesfull it gets, the more OBL will be succesfull in recruiting..You can alter perceptions, but it's a slow process and will not happen on the short term..But you should work on it, while you are also working parallell, applying force to root out the terrorists
Posted by lyot  2004-3-17 10:05:13 AM||   2004-3-17 10:05:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 "well, terrorism should be defeated, but that will not happen by military means solely.. If only the UK & the US would start to acknowledge this.."

Be thankful for the autonomic nervous system; without it, I'm not too sure you'd be bright enough to breathe.

It's evidently escaped your notice so far, but much, MUCH more than military action has been brought to bear on the problem: improved intelligence-sharing, cooperation among law-enforcement agencies worldwide, law-enforcement assistance to nations whose resources are limited, diplomatic pressure on nations reluctant to help in tracking down the terrorists, international cooperation in drying up the terrorists' financial assets, pressure on tyrannical regimes to reform, all of this and more is being done right now and has been since 9/11.

The notion that we are relying "solely" on military action is ignorant and asinine. You need to get off your lazy ass and start paying more attention to what is going on, and less attention to whatever political propagandists you've been listening to.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-3-17 10:10:10 AM||   2004-3-17 10:10:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 If Tony Blair wants to know what a terrorist looks like he should stand in front of the mirror.

WhatEVER!
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-3-17 10:10:42 AM||   2004-3-17 10:10:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 @ Dave D .. Sorry for the confusion, but I'm aware of all these examples of cooperation you are giving..To me, these are all military means, intended to curb the terrorists themself..But not so much helpfull in altering the perception of the ordinary muslim.. Therefore, a different approach is needed..
Posted by lyot  2004-3-17 10:15:01 AM||   2004-3-17 10:15:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Lil Dhimmi good comeback lol. Still think Blair should stand in front of the mirror
Posted by Antiwar 2004-3-17 10:17:50 AM||   2004-3-17 10:17:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Lyot... hmmm are you just chosing to ignore that Bush is fighting this war on multiple fronts because it doesn't gel with your ideology that bush is stupid and evil?

Let's see. He's created 2 democracies where we had a dictatorship and a theorcracy. He's got our governemnt and the governments around the world to crack down on charities for the terrorists and freeze their funds where we could to the tune of hundreds of millions and perhaps billions of dollars. He's shared intelligence with other countries that have lead the the arrest of thousands of terrorist agents. He's reorganized our entire government to unify the FBI, CIA and other homeland defense organizations so they can better work together. He has drastically increased funding for homeland defense. He has changed the laws to make it more difficult for terrorist to sneak into the country (fingerprinting people from other countries and changing policy on student visas. He put huge amounts of dipplomatic pressure on Pakistan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia which has resulted in them turning on Al Queda. He is training forcdes in the phillipines and indonesia to help the locals build a competent force to combat islamic militants. He has send the military into Africa to track down and destroy terrorist camps and new infrastructure being built. At the same time they are building infrastructure and humanitarian projects in Africa to promote good will. He has started a new Arab language network to combat the anti-us/extremist propoganda in the middle east as well as several arab language publications. I can go on because the list of fronts he's fighting this battle on is endless.

You simply choose not to accept the truth because your ideology can't handle facts. It's so frustrating to hear people like you who spout out rhetoric about how all Bush does is military force because you are either a) ignorant or b)intellectually dishonest.
Posted by Damn_Proud_American  2004-3-17 10:23:55 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com]  2004-3-17 10:23:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 To me, these are all military means, intended to curb the terrorists themself..But not so much helpfull in altering the perception of the ordinary muslim..

An M-16 pointed between their eyes usually does alter their perception quite a bit.

Lil Dhimmi good comeback lol. Still think Blair should stand in front of the mirror

Talk to the hand, okay. Don't look at me, look at the hand. That's all you're going to talk to.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-3-17 10:24:24 AM||   2004-3-17 10:24:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Antiwar, that tony blair remark was assinine and shows the level of depravity you've sunk to. That's why Lil Dhimmi didn't bother to give you a more detailed rebuttle. Over the top assinine comments like yours don't deserve one.
Posted by Damn_Proud_American  2004-3-17 10:29:21 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com]  2004-3-17 10:29:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 Lil Dhimmi another good comeback what a clever guy/girl? you are(sarcasm)
Posted by Antiwar 2004-3-17 10:31:19 AM||   2004-3-17 10:31:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Damn Proud American asinine only has one s in it not two.
Posted by Antiwar 2004-3-17 10:35:18 AM||   2004-3-17 10:35:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Like I SAID WhatEVER.
Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-3-17 10:35:54 AM||   2004-3-17 10:35:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Lil Dhimmi God your good(sarcasm)
Posted by Antiwar 2004-3-17 10:39:20 AM||   2004-3-17 10:39:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 antiwar, I was just trying to stress that your remarks were those made by an ass.
Posted by Damn_Proud_American  2004-3-17 11:05:09 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com]  2004-3-17 11:05:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 (YAWN) No sarcasm intended.
Posted by whitecollar redneck 2004-3-17 11:06:45 AM||   2004-3-17 11:06:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 I think Lyot has an entirely myopic view of the Bush effort I do think that we need to step up our propaganda machine in the Arab world - I DON'T think that we need to be apologizing for being rich and successful while they are not - but I do think that we need to point out that their current condition is a direct result of mis-management on the part of THEIR rulers and their 7th C world.
Posted by rabidfox 2004-3-17 11:09:20 AM||   2004-3-17 11:09:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 lyot: Of course, we have to address root causes...

That's why we're in Iraq, draining the Mideast swamp. If only leftist anklebiters would start to acknowledge this.
Posted by someone 2004-3-17 11:16:55 AM||   2004-3-17 11:16:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Hmmm, I always though of them more as pillow biters...
Posted by Damn_Proud_American  2004-3-17 11:20:57 AM|| [http://brighterfuture.blogspot.com]  2004-3-17 11:20:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 "..But not so much helpfull in altering the perception of the ordinary muslim.. Therefore, a different approach is needed.."

Based on the totality of what I've seen since 9/11, I have to conclude that ordinary Muslims don't have "perceptions": they have delusions.

Those delusions are informed, in part, by daily doses of hate speech spewed out by the propaganda organs of the repressive dictatorships in which they are held captive.

Those delusions are also informed by fanatical devotion to a hateful, paranoid, insecure, control-freak deity who promises them a jism-bespattered, pornographic paradise in which they will be allowed to spend eternity copulating with their allotment of 72 virgins, if only they will "martyr" themselves in the process of killing large numbers of us "infidels".

We didn't cause their "perceptions" to be what they are: THEY caused them to be what they are. And the ONLY thing we can do about those "perceptions" is to give Muslims sufficient motivation to correct them.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-3-17 12:21:03 PM||   2004-3-17 12:21:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Antiwar - I think Lil Dhimmi was mocking your retreat from debate comment from yesterday.
Posted by Raj 2004-3-17 12:41:31 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com]  2004-3-17 12:41:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 what the west needs to understand, and especially the love they brother left, is that we were under attack before 9-11 and wil be under attack tomarrow. the only differnce is that before 9-11 it was the innocents being killed in masse. now also it is the terrorists who are being killed in masse.

if the US went isolationist and retreated from strategy's consistently employed for the last 50 years europe would be wide open and at the mercy of the terrrorist even more so than they are now. it is about survival and we all must stand to the challenge.
Posted by Dan 2004-3-17 12:42:38 PM||   2004-3-17 12:42:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Hey antiwar, run along and play now, and let the grownups talk.
Posted by docob 2004-3-17 1:06:22 PM||   2004-3-17 1:06:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Odd Duck indeed.
Posted by Shipman 2004-3-17 1:19:19 PM||   2004-3-17 1:19:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 anitwar - you never bring any stimulating posts with you...you spew propaganda and quite frankly your post elicit a big (YAWN)...you could at least post seem semi-intellegent (and not grammar intellegence!) responses that try to prove whatever point you have.
Posted by Dan 2004-3-17 1:27:29 PM||   2004-3-17 1:27:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 I can go on because the list of fronts he's fighting this battle on is endless.

yes, but in my opinion there is a discrepancy between the the two levels. There has been more emphasis on force, and less on persuasion of the moderate Muslims..In my view, you can't ultimately convince the muslims if you don't alter their negative perception of the US..The war on Iraq wasn't a big succes in this regard, if you look at the opinion of moderate Muslims in the region..I acknowledge the recent efforts to start an Arab TV station, but this will not suffice..We will have to drag the Muslim world into modernity, and this will be no easy task..

Posted by lyot 2004-3-17 3:01:37 PM||   2004-3-17 3:01:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 One way to help the moderate Muslims is to prohibit religious congregations in the US from accepting more than, say 30k a year in non US funds. This would close many of the radical madrassahs in the US, however it might also shutter a lot of mosques too.
How about this, we start supporting the organizations of ex Moslems who are trying to spread the word about how Islam is inherently evil.
Posted by mhw 2004-3-17 4:40:39 PM||   2004-3-17 4:40:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 lyot: You still have not answered my question. HOW do you intend to persuade moderate Muslims away from their typical negative mindsets against the US?

Every day they are fed propaganda that tells them differently. Progpaganda from their mullahs who tell them that they're not "real men" or "real mulsims" if they don't do such-and-such against the West, and conversely, if they DO fulfill their "duty" and blow up innocent people, they will get respect, Allah's favor (Allah = a sorry-ass father substitute), the eternal sex thing, money for their families from Hamas, etc. etc.

I outlined in a previous post that Arab perceptions are manufactured in early childhood, and are deeply rooted in problems with dysfunctional families and a tendency toward conformity in order to compensate. Much of the poverty they experience is because of their horribly corrupt governments, and much of it is because of their own choices and the failings of their culture.

How will you correct those mindsets when the complex process of socialization is what fuels those motivations? Peer pressure is a very big deal in their world. Reread #29 and #5. Unhappily, there's a lot of truth in those posts.

Now, for the record, how many terrorist-leaning Arabs do you converse with on a regular, or semi-regular basis? What country are they from? How much education do they have? Some of the worst are the most "educated." Do you have any understanding, first-hand, of how they process information? Of how infantile many of them are? How irrational they are? How much they lie? Their unashamed ease with disregarding facts that oppose their cherished beliefs? How inconsistent they are? How immoral they are?

You have to understand, that, by and large, they rely on EMOTION to convince not only themselves, but also to try and convince Westerners that the US (and the Jews) are to blame for everything. They are a blame-oriented culture in many respects. They do not, and cannot, look at their own shortcomings and inconsistencies. To do so would be un-Muslim. Personally, I have found them to be quite irresponsible in the thinking department.

So, again, WHAT APPROACH ARE YOU ADVOCATING FOR in altering Arab perceptions of the West? Have you been successful in altering perceptions? If so, why not let us in on it.

Meanwhile, force (with all its counterparts) is critical. The moderate Muslims will understand anyway.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-17 4:49:56 PM||   2004-3-17 4:49:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 We're not going to convince "moderate Muslims". They have to be convince themselves. Hence the development of an Iraqi cadre.
Posted by someone 2004-3-17 6:06:32 PM||   2004-3-17 6:06:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 #35 - you are way off in regards to muslims/arabs...they understand strength and only strength. clinton made us a joke in their eyes and ultimatley certain countries pursued a policy a confrontation through proxy - terrorists - agaisnt the US. they may not like or love us but they do have a new profound respect for the United States. like this or not it is not your choice, the arab mentality is really something from centries past and no offer of peace and love from the west will change the die hards.
iran/syria/sods/pakland are lucky i am not prez - i would've nuked them on 9-12. our enemies have been known for sometime, it is just the people of the US did not want to admit it and clinton was consumed with his own personal problems.
Posted by Dan 2004-3-17 6:50:31 PM||   2004-3-17 6:50:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 "How much education do they have? Some of the worst are the most "educated." Do you have any understanding, first-hand, of how they process information? Of how infantile many of them are? How irrational they are? How much they lie? Their unashamed ease with disregarding facts that oppose their cherished beliefs? How inconsistent they are? How immoral they are?"

Waitaminnit... I'm confused: are you talking about terrorist Arabs, or about Deaniacs?

All kidding aside, one thing that has REALLY struck me since being awakened on 9/11 is how much similarity there is between Islamists and our own radical Left- not just the extract of your post I quoted, but the overarching role of pure, blind belief in the two enterprises, as well.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-3-17 7:45:05 PM||   2004-3-17 7:45:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 If there are any "moderate Muslims" they are few and far between. I continue to get the impression that the vast majority of Muslims living in the west are sympathetic to their terrorist brethren. For example, early in 2004 Imam Fawaz Damra of the Islamic Center of Cleveland, Ohio, was indicted on terrorism-related charges. The Center's board of trustees then attempted to suspend him until the legal charges are settled. The great majority of the congregation overwhelmingly voted against the action of their own board, to retain Damra is his public position of trust.
From PBS
""[Muslims should be] directing all rifles at the first and last enemy of the Islamic nation, and that is the sons of monkeys and pigs, the Jews." Fawaz Damra, 1991

"I regret saying what I said in that tape because that is not what my faith teaches me, not what civilized society stands for." Fawaz Damra, 2001 Even Damra's disavowal of what he said in 1991 does not ring true.
Muslims have their own duty towards the truth, none can force them to change their minds. The rest of us have Rantburg, etc.
Posted by Tresho  2004-3-17 8:30:21 PM||   2004-3-17 8:30:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 
Re #41
I think Damra probably did change his mind a lot between 1991 and 2001. Assume he's telling the truth about that unless you have some good reason to think otherwise.
Posted by Mike Sylwester  2004-3-17 10:12:34 PM||   2004-3-17 10:12:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Islam is NOT a "religion". Islam is a "cult". There are thousands of points to justify this distinction, and I'm not going to go through them (again) tonight. The point I want to make is that Islam is THE cult of excuses. Everything that's wrong is someone else's fault, because they're not Muslim. T he entire cult is based on excusing Muslims from the Commandments of the God they supposedly follow - the God of Abraham.

God said, "Thou shall not Kill" - but Mohammed said it's all right to kill kufrs and jews and all manner of lesser people, just not Muslims.

God said, "Thou shall not commit adultery" - but it's all right, according to Mohammed, to have ten wives, even six-year-old girls. And if that isn't enough, it's also all right to bugger little boys, since that's not technically adultery.

God said "Thou shall not steal" - but Mohammed said it's ok to take from kufrs and jews and all manner of lesser people, by combat if necessary. All that is "theirs" by right belongs to Muslims, anyway, so it's ok to take it from them.

God said "Thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor", but Mohammed says it's ok to lie to kufrs and jews and the other "monkeys and pigs" that live on the earth, because they're not Muslims.

Excuses. The rest of the world has to be slain, because they don't worship as Muslims do. "GOD" spoke to Mohammed last, so only the words Mohammed heard are to be followed - the rest is a waste of time. "We don't have to listen. We don't have to conform. You can't ask us to do anything not approved by Islam". Excuses. "God promised us the whole world, and said we have to take it by force", so the rest of us have to accept slavery. God said so, according to Mohammed.

No freedom. No individual thought. Everything must be secondary to Islam - that "submission" thing. Can't have anyone else coming up with any better ways to do things - that's against the precepts of Islam. Of course, if that bunch over there doesn't think the same way we do, or pray the same way we do, they're heretics, and are to be killed, just like kufrs and jews.

Islam has been perverted into a death cult, where human life has no worth, only "submission to Allah" has any value. That is NOT the will of MY God, and I will not surrender. I will fight. I do believe I'll have to take a chapter from their book, however: if you fight against me and mine, or try to keep me and mine from fighting, you are part of the problem. We will solve the problem as we feel necessary. If that means destroying you, whatever you believe makes no difference - YOU WILL BE DESTROYED.

Islam has repeated that it revels in death: then let it die. We, the people of the TRUE GOD revel in life, and life dedicated to our God. Death is HIS Domain, not ours. Those who wish to take this from God's hands are our enemies, and must be destroyed. We can do it by destroying their bodies, by destroying their culture of hate, by destroying their cult of excuses, or by destroying everything that represents what they are. Whatever it takes, in whatever form, is what we MUST do to remain free. It'll be a long fight. I'm ready to spend the next 40 years being a part of it. But there can only be one outcome, if free men are to continue to exist - the cult of excuses must be totally and completely crushed, and those that participate in it destroyed. There is no other answer.
Posted by Old Patriot  2004-3-17 11:17:27 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm]  2004-3-17 11:17:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 lyot: Actually, YOU said "perceived injustices" in your post #7. I agree that there are things that are perceived as injustices by the Muslims, but thought it was funny that you questioned and then criticized your own point of view .

Dave D.: I think they're about the same too, which is more than a little scary.

Old Patriot: Yep. I totally agree! And did you also know that Mohammed was kicked out of a Byzantine Orthodox Christian seminary, originally, for his unrepented-of weird beliefs? It was then that he went on a rampage "converting" people at the point of the sword, engaging in his adulteries, his pedophilia, murder, etc. He WAS a cult leader! How 'bout that?! Islam is a cult of chaos too, along with all the other junk. Thanks for your elegant post. Very cool. And very encouraging.
Posted by ex-lib 2004-3-17 11:42:56 PM||   2004-3-17 11:42:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 OP. way cool
Posted by Lucky 2004-3-18 12:48:21 AM||   2004-3-18 12:48:21 AM|| Front Page Top

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